Survival / Vengevine Poll

[keys]

Werebear = civic

Goyf = bmw 3s

Vine = gulfstream g6...

[lolosoon]

If it was an Emrakul the other dude would have won. S&T for a Pro is kinda bad in comparison.

Granted that this describes a turn 4 VV kill, with zero disruption from the Sneak Show player. What do you think about this?

My point was that the kill was possible due to the sheer power of VV -and not Survival- since GerryT only used Fauna+Ranger interactions.

So if you want to ban one of those two cards (SotF/VV) aim at the plant and stop this particular deck's hegemony, without hurting a whole mid-range archetype.

Neither the Iona/Retainer, Emrakul/Retainer nor the Ooze combo finish are THAT resilient to hate. Survival is a fine tutor and a great engine. VV makes it broken.

Well, Hasted VV to be precise...

[kusumoto]

Let's unban some random stuff and shake things up.

I am predicting Hermit Druid and Worldgorger Dragon get unbanned to give us some more creature based combo. That's what we really need right?

[Gheizen64]

Dragon can't be unbanned since it can cause draws too often. Hermit is possible, but if anything they'll unban something stupid and unplayable like twist and say "OMG THIS CARD SO GOOD IT WILL WARP LEGACY HAVE FUN GG".

[Dark Ritual]

I personally think mind twist is fine to come off; it does nothing in vintage and in legacy it might shake things up a little but in the end its just another pebble in the pond.

IMHO anyone who draws the game with worldgorger dragon going infinite with no other targets or things to do in the game and calls it a draw should just get a game loss because that's what would have happened if the dragon player decided "Oh I'll lose next turn to his nacatl army, better animate dead the dragon so I can draw and move onto the next game." And guess what wrecks that combo; any instant speed removal kills it because with WGD's ETB trigger on the stack, if someone StPs the dragon they just wiped the dragon players entire board. Not to mention extirpate wrecks the combo deck cold and it isn't that resilient to hate.

The problem with hermit druid is it is a very resilient dredge deck that once it deals with your hate cards can just go ahead and activate the druid and win the game through some combo on the same turn it deals with all your hate cards so it doesn't have to worry.

Earthcraft should get unbanned that combo is so meh with squirrel nest. It doesn't do that much on its own and it relies on basic lands to work. I doubt an earthcraft based combo deck is better than TES. Or any other storm based combo deck for that matter.

Then there's land tax. Personally I think it's too slow a card for legacy to do any good what with rack tax combo getting active turn 3 at the earliest. And it's an enchantment so it gets hit by pridemage, grip, nature's claim, etc. etc.

[Pastorofmuppets]

I still say it's time for Desire to come off.
At least it'll get rid of Vine builds.

[kusumoto]

I personally think mind twist is fine to come off; it does nothing in vintage and in legacy it might shake things up a little but in the end its just another pebble in the pond.

IMHO anyone who draws the game with worldgorger dragon going infinite with no other targets or things to do in the game and calls it a draw should just get a game loss because that's what would have happened if the dragon player decided "Oh I'll lose next turn to his nacatl army, better animate dead the dragon so I can draw and move onto the next game." And guess what wrecks that combo; any instant speed removal kills it because with WGD's ETB trigger on the stack, if someone StPs the dragon they just wiped the dragon players entire board. Not to mention extirpate wrecks the combo deck cold and it isn't that resilient to hate.

The problem with hermit druid is it is a very resilient dredge deck that once it deals with your hate cards can just go ahead and activate the druid and win the game through some combo on the same turn it deals with all your hate cards so it doesn't have to worry.

Earthcraft should get unbanned that combo is so meh with squirrel nest. It doesn't do that much on its own and it relies on basic lands to work. I doubt an earthcraft based combo deck is better than TES. Or any other storm based combo deck for that matter.

Then there's land tax. Personally I think it's too slow a card for legacy to do any good what with rack tax combo getting active turn 3 at the earliest. And it's an enchantment so it gets hit by pridemage, grip, nature's claim, etc. etc.

I pretty much agree with all of this. I would really like to see Dragon unbanned and you make a great argument for it.

As far as land tax goes though, wasn't it confirmed at some point that wizards is keeping it banned because they think it's funny?

I really think unbanning things is the best way to solve the vine problem, if it is a problem at all. Either way, the banhammer needs to be put back in the toolbox.

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

I still say it's time for Desire to come off.
At least it'll get rid of Vine builds.

+1

[dahcmai]

I think Imperial Seal should come off so we can bitch about something else other than Vengevine Survival.

[Amon Amarth]

I think Imperial Seal should come off so we can bitch about something else other than Vengevine Survival.

OMG This is perfect. You can combine everyone's love of bitchiung about Combo and how Magic is way too expensive these days. Sprinkle in a slightly watered down white bordered Vampiric Tutor and you got yourself a recipe for lame.

[Gheizen64]

I think Imperial Seal should come off so we can bitch about something else other than Vengevine Survival.

LOL 100+ dollars card incoming?

[Vacrix]

The fuck? Survival is far from O.P, in fact its probably (slowly) shifting the format more toward combo again because that deck is a combo players dream:

- No white mana (lack removal for Xantid Swarm and or post-board Bears which all need white)
- Minimal Hard Countermagic (4 Force doesn't get there against a decent TES player)
- Minimal Countermagic (some builds run as few as 7 countermagic to as much as 12)
- A relatively slow clock (though it can sometimes be explosive, combo will consistently outpace the control player)
- Quite a few builds have dropped Wasteland making countermagic like Daze and Spell Pierce less effective.
- The deck is tight for SB space often forgoing combo slots to improve other worse matchups (further, sometimes the board has a toolbox for Survival, leaving little space to improve the combo matchup).

From a combo player's perspective, this deck is a bad version of Merfolk and often lacks the sideboard material to match what the combo player is boarding in. We don't need to ban Survival, we need to unban a bunch of shit to keep down the popular decks and mix up the metagame. The first thing I would unban is Frantic Search because honestly Solidarity and Faerie Stompy aren't going to take over the metagame anytime soon, especially Solidarity which would probably peak at a high point with maybe 20 players. Maybe.

EDIT:
When is the next B/R update?

[Dark Ritual]

Next ban list update is on Dec. 20th I believe. I sorely wish for frantic search to come off; I would have soooooo much fun playing solidarity. Although the card improves survivine as well I can see it run in the GU versions or any versions with blue because it's free and as a bonus you can do crazy stuff with gaea's cradle from time to time. But yeah solidarity and spring tide would love to consistently go off on turn 3 it would give TES a run for its money (maybe).

Lulz lets unban imperial seal and see what happens I'm guessing nothing because no one has the card and it would cost like $300 the moment it came off the banned list making it almost impossible to obtain. The card is arguably worse than mystical tutor because it's sorcery speed but I guess it doesn't reveal the card. You also lose 2 life which can matter in a deck based on ad nauseam.

I think the DCI's argument for keeping land tax on the banned list is for time reasons and that's the only reason it's still on there.

And like Vacrix said, survivine with or without blue is a combo players dream. Only 4 forces and sometimes not a blue card in hand to pitch to FoW? Hell yeah I'll face that MU all day long with SI, TES, or even belcher. Solidarity can also beat the deck pretty easily since the survivine can kill on turn 4 at the earliest and that's with a god hand that doesn't happen very often and if a god hand doesn't occur we have extra turns to sculpt our god hand. Also of note if the solidarity player counters survival boom you just got yourself at least 4 turns to sculpt some more. And the GWx versions of the deck are easy to beat for obvious reasons they only have gaddock teeg as hate and that really doesn't cut it.

[mujadaddy]

Unban Black Vise

[DragoFireheart]

And like Vacrix said, survivine with or without blue is a combo players dream. Only 4 forces and sometimes not a blue card in hand to pitch to FoW? Hell yeah I'll face that MU all day long with SI, TES, or even belcher. Solidarity can also beat the deck pretty easily since the survivine can kill on turn 4 at the earliest and that's with a god hand that doesn't happen very often and if a god hand doesn't occur we have extra turns to sculpt our god hand. Also of note if the solidarity player counters survival boom you just got yourself at least 4 turns to sculpt some more. And the GWx versions of the deck are easy to beat for obvious reasons they only have gaddock teeg as hate and that really doesn't cut it.

Thank you. Veggies loses to combo decks as they are faster and run more ways to protect their faster combo than Veggies runs to disrupt them.

[Meekrab]

Unban Black Vise

Hell yeah, lets make Arcane Denial better than Counterspell!

[keys]

Pat Chapin adds his $0.02 to the Survival debate: http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/l...e_Fittest.html

[Meekrab]

Pat Chapin adds his $0.02 to the Survival debate: http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/l...e_Fittest.html

Remember earlier this year when some called for the banning of Bloodbraid Elf?

What?

[majikal]

What?

He's talking about Standard. And yeah some people wanted BBE banned because Jund was wrecking up the format at the time.

[Kuma]

Chapin seems to think banning Vengevine may not be enough to stop Survival decks. I don't see how you can make that claim when Survival averaged less than one place per top eight before the Vengevine tech was discovered. I'm pretty sure banning Vengevine would be enough, and if it's not, we can always still ban Survival.