This is highly incorrect as many verisons maindeck either Waterfront bouncer or Man-O'-War main.Originally Posted by Hopo
Last edited by DragoFireheart; 11-22-2010 at 12:14 PM.
That's right, some lists play those in order to remove problematic creatires like DR targets. Nonetheless I think that Dredge is definitely one of the few decks out there that has a pretty good matchup against vengevival. With Vengevivals everywhere, dredge should definitely be strong in the metagame.
The best strategy still is discarding their Survival. If you magane that and have gas in your hand, it's pretty much over. Fauna Shaman is much too slow to handle Dredge's speed. In my expierience the best play against survival decks is: turn 1 Discard dork, turn 2 Therapy on Survival + flashback Therapy on Fauna Shaman. You don't always have a Therapy, of course. But if you have it, it's great.
And yes, Necrotic ooze combo can be annoying. Luckily that Ooze thing requires 4 mana, 2 of which have to be black (remember that Noble Hierarch doesn't produce black). So the earliest chance for them to have the combo together is turn 3, which is still pretty fast. But if we can pull of a FKZ win or an Iona on turn 2 we are still faster.
Another good thing is the fact that they will not have everything that harms you at the same time. Ooze lists are usually non-blue, thus don't have countermagic, and vice versa.
Is there ever a reason to play all four dread returns? Right now i'm playing 3 and wondering if there should ever be a reason for me to play a fourth either main or in the side.
Flex slots are very few, three seems to be the right number because of the ratio of DR targets (sans trolls). Usually, FKZ or Iona are the prime targets, again GGT's are fine targets in given situations, but a fourth DR is too much. I wouldn't cut a therapy or DR target for it, nor would I cut a discard outlet or draw source. Normally I'm greedy but I wouldn't
I completely agree with you. This deck along with Storm should be able to stomp SotF decks easily. We are simply too fast for them.
Im starting to repick this deck again, just a curious question since Bloodghast has been discussed before, I know that Ichorid > Bloodghast in consensus, but observing most Ichorid lists with 15 lands, I feel that Tarnished Citadels are pushing the border of being playable/unplayable.
My proposed thought was playing about 14 lands for non-LED dredge:
4 Cephalid coliseum
4 City
4 Gemstone Mine
2 Undiscovered Paradise (not too bad since it is waste-immune when you pass the turn, this deck only needs up to 2-lands to function)
Would a package of 4 Ichorid + 2 Bloodghast improve consistency with creatures coming back every turn to feed your bridges? Paradise will trigger with Bloodghast pretty easily.
I've seen this idea being explored (Ichorid/ghast hybrids) but I'm wondering if there's still any discussion/strength in Bloodghast or has it been entirely dismissed?
Do you guys think that this list http://www.deckcheck.org/?x=8QRflGWV...lGRfia75iaoIoI is still playable in today's meta?
It is maybe one of the fastest lists I ve ever played.
WantToPonder
former: Team SpasticalAction & Team RugStar Berlin
Team MTG Berlin
The Dragonstorm
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...he-Dragonstorm
I have completely lost track of legacy in the past two years.
Is Chalice of the Void no longer a format defining card? I play in a small circle of friends and many of which advocate Pithing Needle for the anti-Survival plan. Both Needle and Chalice are amazing against a dredge deck who's only discard outlets are 1 drops with activated abilities.
I could never see myself playing without LED. The card is great even as a One With Nothing but when it combos with Deep Analyis or Breakthrough it can lead to the degenerate wins this deck was established for.
Now playing real formats.
I was wondering the same thing about bloodghast. But as for undiscovered paradise goes, it's not waste-immune as it returns to your hand at the beginning of your untap step. To me it seems kind of weird to play 2 paradise and 2 bloodghast, if I would do it I would put 4 of each.. Just test and play it? Then play it in a tournament and see how it turned out.. The more I think about it, the more I think that it isn't a stellar idea. (but I'm too new to dredge to give you a wise and intellegent answer :), those we're my 2 cents)
Do not forget that breakthrought can play around chalice @ 1 just playing X = 1. It's an amazing discard outlet.
it all depends on how much blue is in your meta. winning turn 1 has not been neccessary for a long time, and non-LED lists with FKZ still win often on turns 2-3. my rule when running any combo deck is not to win the earliest turn possible, just the turn before my opponent can possibly kill me.
I played the following list to a 3-1-1 swiss, top 4 finish at knight ware yesterday.
Mainboard:
Creatures :
1 Terastodon
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
2 Golgari Thug
4 Ichorid
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
4 Narcomoeba
4 Putrid Imp
4 Tireless Tribe
4 Stinkweed Imp
Others :
4 Breakthrough
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Careful Study
3 Dread Return
Lands :
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
2 Tarnished Citadel
60 Cards
Sideboard:
3 Ancient Grudge
3 Firestorm
4 Chain of Vapor
1 Ray of Revelation
3 Nature's Claim
1 Ancestor's Chosen
15 Cards
I beat burn 2-0 (Iona turn 2 both times), B/G/w gate/evagreen/Dark Horizons hybrid 2-1 (Got locked under his own persecutor one game!), and Merfolk 2-0 (he mulled to 5 G2). I lost round 4 to Vial Knights by getting hugely unlucky, but I was still able to draw into t8, where my opponent scooped to me, and then we split t4. So yay I guess.
What are the merits of running terrastidon and or iona
Terastodon destroys lock pieces but Iona is just a waste of a slot.
What lock pieces are you worried about when playing dredge? Just curious, haven't played legacy in some time, and I was thinking about picking this back up.
He must be referring to things like moat or solitary confinement i think which doesn't justify the maindecking of terastodon. I think that ozymandias deck is suboptimal: 10 dredgers, 14 lands, 3 DR and just 2 (terastodon and iona) DR targets make a bad combination. Why Lion's Eye Diamond is not included in the list???
Against Lands.dec, you wanna destroy stuff like Glacial Chasm and Tabernacle of Pendrell Valle. Against Stax.dec, you pretty much wanna destroy those annoying artifacts that prevent you from casting spells. Against Enchantress.dec, you need to deal with Elephant Grass and Solitary Confinment. And against various control decks, You wanna get rid of Propaganda, Ghostly Prison, Moat, Humility, Dueling Grounds, etc.
I don't play the card at all. I was just answering his question. I could understand if someone wanted to bring it in to handle a deck with a lot of problem non-creature permanents.What lock pieces are you worried about when playing dredge? Just curious, haven't played legacy in some time, and I was thinking about picking this back up.
Terastodon doesn't stop Humility. It triggers when it comes into play. If it comes into play, Humility makes it a 1/1 without abilities so it doesn't trigger. If it said, "As Terastodon comes into play.....", it would be different.Against Lands.dec, you wanna destroy stuff like Glacial Chasm and Tabernacle of Pendrell Valle. Against Stax.dec, you pretty much wanna destroy those annoying artifacts that prevent you from casting spells. Against Enchantress.dec, you need to deal with Elephant Grass and Solitary Confinment. And against various control decks, You wanna get rid of Propaganda, Ghostly Prison, Moat, Humility, Dueling Grounds, etc.
Yes, you're correct about humility. I was typing problematic cards for dredge and missed that. My bad.
With the exception of elephant grass the rest of the cards you mention are a bit slow to make its effects. Chasm and tabernacle must be in the hand of your opo before turn 2-3 when the can tutor them with tolaria west which of course it has to be in hand too. Moreover glacial chasm is the most anoying card tabernacle does nothing if you go off (i play zealot) the next turn.
Confinement, propaganda, moat and so on are slow cards and you can deal with them with your therapies. In sume i think that terastodon is a good side card against this deck that aren't highly played, they are played off course but not with a frecuency that justify running terastodon maindeck.
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