All B/R update speculation.

[Valrina]

Touche. In my defense, Flash Hulk was a far bigger atrocity than Survival or probably anything we'll ever see in the format again, and after multiple long naked therapy sessions with two gorgeous lady psychs, I've managed to block out that Flash Hulk ever happened. So I can't say that I have any idea what you're talking about.

Sounds like you blocked out the time when memory yar was legal also ^^

[DragoFireheart]

If Merfolk are just preying on the rest of the meta, wouldn't Zoo and Goblin be in there too? Both decks are optimal against Merfolk and whatever Control decks are present in the DTB.

Zoo and Goblins suck against combo and are not phenomonal against vengevival. They will be pushed out. Merfolk won't have to worry about them preying on it. Meanwhile, everyone is eventually going to play control that is good against storm, Vengevival, anti-vengevival decks, decks that can race Vengevival and Storm or decks that can prey on anything but vengevival. Zoo as I see it is a fast mid-range deck: not quite as quick as a Sligh or Burn deck but still quick. Goblins is a slower mid-range deck. Mid-range decks lose to combo and won't be able to handle both the Vengevival and combo matchup without having one suffer compared to the other.

The previous meta was mid-range aggro-control vs countertop vs combo. It's now shifting to fast aggro / aggro-combo (vengevival being the tier 1 choice) vs countertop vs combo. Countertop decks will drop for now but once storm and other combo decks kick it it will return.

As it stands now, the meta is Vengevival beats pet decks, along with people crying about it.

Again, this is all theory craft.

So your argument is that it's okay to have a format where Red doesn't exist except for Burning Wish and/or Firespout?

Goblins being the red deck of choice for tier 1 and nothing else only speaks of how weak the color is, not of how powerful Vengevival is and is not a fault of the Vengevival deck. If anything, fast Sligh/Burn decks can give Vengevival decks a run for their money and may be more viable now that there will be less Countertop decks.

tl;dr: Mid-range decks suck. Anything that sucks against both combo and vengevival is bad right now. Run vengevival, rouge anti-vengevival, combo, fast aggro or decks that can fight combo and the rogue decks.

[Tacosnape]

Sounds like you blocked out the time when memory yar was legal also ^^

Memory Jar's never been legal in Legacy.

Goblins being the red deck of choice for tier 1 and nothing else only speaks of how weak the color is, not of how powerful Vengevival is and is not a fault of the Vengevival deck.

Your argument is completely backwards. Goblins IS the premier red deck in the format, and now it's basically being pushed out by Vengevine Survival, which has a decent match against it, and is also ushering in more Storm Combo, which eradicates Goblins. Because of Vengevine Survival, playing Goblins is a terrible idea right now.

Furthermore, Zoo's getting pushed out by similar logic. Zoo gets puppy raped by Storm Combo, and struggles against Vengevine Survival.

Red is agreeably the worst color in Legacy. It has been for awhile. If not for Burning Wish, there would be months where you didn't see a top 8 deck packing any form of Red. My point is, why encourage a format evolution that makes it even worse?

[wcm8]

Nt

[DragoFireheart]

Your argument is completely backwards. Goblins IS the premier red deck in the format,

Which is bad since there is almost no other variety in the color of mono red for a viable tier 1 deck.

and now it's basically being pushed out by Vengevine Survival, which has a decent match against it, and is also ushering in more Storm Combo, which eradicates Goblins. Because of Vengevine Survival, playing Goblins is a terrible idea right now. Furthermore, Zoo's getting pushed out by similar logic. Zoo gets puppy raped by Storm Combo, and struggles against Vengevine Survival.

Goblins is mid-range. Zoo is a slightly faster mid-range. Vengevival beats mid-range. Combo beats mid-range. Goblins now sucks. Zoo now sucks.

This is known as a meta-shift. What is your point? To state the obvious? Just because mid-range decks are bad does not warrant a banning: it warrants a meta shift. By the way, fast burn or sligh decks can give Vengevival and storm a run for their money but are terrible vs mid-range and countertop. Also note that Lightning Bolt can kill just about every creature in many Vengevival decks. Isn't that interesting...

Red is agreeably the worst color in Legacy. It has been for awhile. If not for Burning Wish, there would be months where you didn't see a top 8 deck packing any form of Red. My point is, why encourage a format evolution that makes it even worse?

Because people want to use good cards. Red has very few good cards outside of those for Goblins and a select few for combo. This issue of red being bad has noting to do with vengevival and is a separate issue.

[wcm8]

Red doesn't offer much to legacy, true. But don't you think that has a lot to do with the inherent qualities of it's slice of the color pie? The red mechanics that work so well in a limited or standard environment don't work so well in the legacy card pool. The same could be said of white in vintage, whereas in Legacy white is a comparatively better color.

Unless red gets a new mechanic or the card quality goes up, I don't think we will see too much of red in legacy outside of goblins, zoo, or the occasional splash for fire spout and a few other fringe cards.

[keys]

This is known as a meta-shift. What is your point? To state the obvious? Just because mid-range decks are bad does not warrant a banning: it warrants a meta shift.

Wizards has said on multiple occasions that they try to avoid a metagame that is dominated by Combo. In fact it's the one archetype that they still hesitate to officially acknowledge as legitimate. Whether you agree or not, Survival is likely to be viewed as the Vengevine combo engine/enabler.

[DragoFireheart]

Wizards has said on multiple occasions that they try to avoid a metagame that is dominated by Combo. In fact it's the one archetype that they still hesitate to officially acknowledge as legitimate. Whether you agree or not, Survival is likely to be viewed as the Vengevine combo engine/enabler.

And Vengevine needs an attack phase to win. Wizards encourages wins that require a creature to be turned sideways for lethal. They are not likely to see it as a combo deck in the same sense that TES or Belcher are.

Storm combo doesn't need an attack phase and Countertop helps keep it in check.

Reanimator and ANT got hosed by the Mystical Tutor ban (which for those decks was basically a Vampiric Tutor).

Ichorid is kept in check by graveyard hate and loses to itself more than Storm does.

The rest of the combo decks are kept in check by aggro-control or control decks (Merfolk, Countertop, etc).

[Julian23]

Are banings also gonna be effectiv the day they come out (read: 20th december)?

[Sims]

Are banings also gonna be effectiv the day they come out (read: 20th december)?

We have chosen to change the schedule of banned and restricted list announcements. The new announcement dates will be March 20, June 20, September 20, March 20, June 20, September 20, and December 20 with effective dates of April 1, July 1, October 1, and January 1, respectively.

No, December's bannings will be announced on the 20th and then go into effect first of the year.

Source: http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazin...tg/daily/ld/17

[keys]

And Vengevine needs an attack phase to win. Wizards encourages wins that require a creature to be turned sideways for lethal. They are not likely to see it as a combo deck in the same sense that TES or Belcher are.

This statement is a complete contradiction. TES and Belcher both frequently win in the attack phase.

Storm combo doesn't need an attack phase and Countertop helps keep it in check.

Reanimator and ANT got hosed by the Mystical Tutor ban (which for those decks was basically a Vampiric Tutor).

Ichorid is kept in check by graveyard hate and loses to itself more than Storm does.

The rest of the combo decks are kept in check by aggro-control or control decks (Merfolk, Countertop, etc).

Congratulations, you have a basic understanding of the checks and balances of modern legacy combo.

Now, look at Survival's win %s against the field.

[Bigface]

Again, as many European players pointed out, Vengival isn't invincible. The meta can adapt. It always adapted ('cept for Flash, but dear God was it absurd). I do hope Wizards doesn't ban anything, expecially Survival. As I said in another post, that card is more than a card, it's a concept. Banning it would mean throwing a great part of Legacy's past and present brainstorming away.

Please, don't ban Survival. If you have to, ban Vengevine. It's not like Flash, where banning Hulk would have been quite pointless.

Also, as for LED, that would be downright stupid. As for now Storm Combo decks ala TES are perfectly fine, they don't need nerfing.

[majikal]

In regards to the earlier comment about WotC not wanting combo to be a pillar (too lazy to quote) - the context of this remark was in reference to Standard. Legacy can never be a format without combo because of the hugely diverse card pool. As more cards get printed, more interactions appear, and more combo decks are born. In fact, I'd venture to say that a large minority (if not an outright majority) of Legacy decks could be classed as combo decks in one way or another. Hell, even Goblins can combo off with Lightning Crafter + Skirk Prospector and Kiki Jiki.

I personally think it is too soon to properly assess the situation, and it could even do more harm than good - that's the problem with hasty bannings. You have to do a good amount of research to see what lurks just beneath the surface before you resort to such drastic measures. The last thing we need is for a new best deck to pop up and require yet another banning because its natural predators have been cut away. At any rate, after the huge uproar from banning Mystical Tutor earlier this year, perhaps they'll do the right thing for once and wait until the next announcement to make their move.

Don't get me wrong, it probably needs to be banned. But doing it now, just a few months after it has risen to dominance and before anyone has had an adequate chance to figure out how to attack it (kind of like when Dredge first appeared), would be monumentally stupid.

TL;DR - If I were WotC I'd wait until the next announcement.

[freakish777]

And Vengevine needs an attack phase to win.

So did Hulk-Flash.

[majikal]

So did Hulk-Flash.

Sure, versions that weren't able to kill turn 0 on the draw did.

[DuxDucis]

Read in to it what you will. http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/twtw/119

10. The Survival of Legacy
The banned and restricted announcement will go up on December 20 as usual—after Worlds. If any player is going to come up with a strategy to beat the Survival of the Fittest decks that have been dominating the format then the Team Competition may be the last chance that they get to do so before it is defeated through legislation.

[Gheizen64]

Sigh. Damn broken Vengevine. Let's hope they'll unban some stupid card in exchange at least :(

[ddt15]

Instead of bannings, lets talk about unbannings for a moment; im in favor of unbanning:

- Goblin Recruiter
- Frantic Search
- Land Tax
- Gush?
- Time Spiral
- Earthcraft
- Mind Twist

[tsabo_tavoc]

Instead of bannings, lets talk about unbannings for a moment; im in favor of unbanning:
- Gush?

No, and never. So strong a combo enabler & CA. Vintage is a different environment where Jewelries are more popular than Islands and games end faster.

I am tinkering about people's reactions on this card, if printed

Survival of the Cruelist 1R
Enchantment Rare
R: Survival of the Cruelist deals 4 damage to target player. If the ability is activated the first time in a turn, counter it unless you discarded a creature card for the first time.

[dontbiteitholmes]

No, and never. So strong a combo enabler & CA. Vintage is a different environment where Jewelries are more popular than Islands and games end faster.

I am tinkering about people's reactions on this card, if printed

Survival of the Cruelist 1R
Enchantment Rare
R: Survival of the Cruelist deals 4 damage to target player. If the ability is activated the first time in a turn, counter it unless you discard a creature card.

LOL, this isn't make a card forum and that is way too broken in Legacy, forget standard.