(sorry quote != edit)
I suspect you're actually a champion at life if you get 13 mana to Wish for and cast Ulamog when all of your creatures are 1/1 with no abilities, in your deck with only 6 lands that tap for mana.
If you choose to ignore all the spelled out uses for with that I listed, I'm not going to keep debating this. I run three wishes because of how many uses it has, it has nothing to do with it being countered, I have never once had it countered. Seriously, not even one time.Originally Posted by NihilObstat
You may not have to worry about peacekeeper, archon, moat, and the like, but if you're running storm you certainly have to worry about leyline of sanctity, solitary confinement, etc. It's the same problem with different cards.
Again, I played straight combo (with tendrils as the kill) for a very long time. I'd like you to try the wish build if we are going to keep debating. The fact that you think you only get Emrakul/Regal force seems to suggest that if you try it out you might realize how many different uses it can have and end up liking it.
Cradle is better with crop rotation, I agree with you there, but wasting the extra MD spots is not worth it.
In all your points you still have yet to give any reason to play GSZ since it does not activate glimpse. Your only arguments are that it has not been a problem. Why is it good?
The biggest choice you have with wish (or most common choice) is it can either generate mana (cradle) or spend it towards a win (Emrakul, Regal, warcaller). How valuable this is is difficult to understand until you test it. This is so rare in magic- a card that can either provide you with needed mana OR use excess mana productively!That is an amazing quality! I don't even know if there are ANY other cards that can do this. It skyrockets the consistency of the deck.
Last edited by k2thej; 02-21-2011 at 02:17 PM.
Thank you for the answer, K2thej.
In the mean time I just feel I need two Fecundities. You need it mostly against decks that do not counter and than you are just laghing. expecialy game two when they have more sweepers and you dont always get combo. My meta is various but you see EE more often than you want.
One thing I like about this deck is that you can go the aggro route so easily. Fecundity alows you to do that without worring too much.
Ya since your comment yesterday I've been really thinking about playing them instead of thorns. Not sure yet though, haven't tested enough vs storm combo.
LOL. Thats funny!
I have been testing out the wish build, and let me start by saying its a great deck. The combo is pretty consistent. Only complaint so far is that your primary win condition is not in the deck. Chalice of The Void at 2 really smacks you in the face. In my opinion you really need to drop one wish for Viridian Shaman. The only other bad thing that I can find is the fact that the Sideboard is kinda limited. By using wish you seem to cut your own legs out from under yourself games 2 and 3. You almost have to combo out. Where I play I see alot of Tabernacles, Moats, Chalice of The Void and Ethersworn Canonist. It would be nice to have a few more sideboard options. Think Caller of The Claw should make an appearance in this deck. Like I said before this is just my opinion and my take on the wish build.
My name is PhantomOtter and I approve this message.
Also, what do you all think of adding this to the deck as a sideboard option:
Bellowing Tanglewurm
It gives all green creatures you control intimidate!
Think that this could be useful with the goblins and merfolk match ups for when you want to go aggro!
This decks amazing. Today I just wrecked this fish deck. G1
I was about to go off on turn 2 but he forced my glimpse. I proceeded to wish for a ezuri and trampled.
G2 I boarded in leylines and managed to hardcast a terastadon on turn 3 off of
Archdruid and untap effects. I proceeded to destroy his 2 aether vials and underground sea haha
If you are worried about being blocked I think Ezuri would be more effective.
Also, if you are worried about a chalice on 2.....Chalice on 1?
Played around Chalice on 1. Big mana producers cost 2 and 3 in my deck as does Elvish Visionary. Aggro until I could get him into Tendrils range. Chalice is just a pain period.
Agreed. I just think playing around chalice on 1 is much harder than playing around chalice on 2. All the same, it sucks. But that is why I play Leyline!
My response is 13 lines long, and you only focused on the last 2 which were an attack on your list, not arguments. I must apologize, but please read the arguments again.
On the Emra vs. Storm point, I am saying I don't fear Peacekeeper, Archon or Moat, which you do.
Yet I do fear Leyline and Solitary, but hey wait I can beat Leyline aggro and I can tutor my maindeck Zealot for Solitary. The only deck to run both (Moat+Solitary) would be Enchantress and we beat them unless, as I've said so many times they land Humility, which is the only thing in their deck that really screws me up... but you won't be able to destroy it anyway with Terastodon as I said before, or any other tutorable creature, just Grip. So they are annoying for your list as well.
So basically I am saying that with my list I don't need to Wish and waste a full turn wishing since I have non-aggro wincons. So how is Storm worse than Emrakul, if I may ask.
I also don't accept you telling me that I waste MD spots, when I have shown you that 3 Wishes are a waste of spots. You should read my last anwer again and forget about the last 2 lines, which I again apologize for.
You say that my only argument for GSZ is that it's not a problem, so I'll just rewrite the arguments again, clearer...
1. GSZ can be a Llanowar or Arbor dryad.
2. It costs 1 mana less (big difference).
3. It's biggest strength is setting up an extra mana on turn 2.
4. While comboing it can tutor Heritage, Symbiote, Quirion, Visionary, opposite to Wish with only wincons.
5. GSZ is Summoner's 5-8 since it can change for ANYTHING you need and it's playable turn 1 or 2, unlike Pact.
When you draw multiple Wishes while going off, what do you do? Spend 3 mana to cast a 1/1 Warcaller? Get Craddle, but wait, I need another turn to land a land.
I am able to run Rotation plus Cradle with the 2 spots you waste with Wishes ;) Although Cradle goes in for a land not a useful card.
On the card quality, GSZ can fetch Heritage for mana advantage (like you wish cradle, but I don't need an extra turn), for Warcaller(like you wish emrakul, warcaller), Regal force (card advantage). So I think GSZ also has all the magnificent and outstanding qualities that you talk about in Wish.
I will try the wish list AGAIN, but I am positive that GSZ is more consistent.
I will test GSZ again since you are testing wish again before I comment on it.
As for storm though, anytime you storm, you could have cast emrakul, so they are essentially even with the consistency of pulling them off combo wise. Emrakul is afraid of peacekeeper and archon, storm is afraid of leyline and solitary, so call that a wash. Up until now, they are even.
Emrakul breaks the tie by being able to be cast without comboing. You can only cast storm mid combo, you can cast Emrakul anytime you happen to have a buttload of mana available, which is every time you could have stormed AND anytime you have a bunch of mana when you are not comboing. They are pretty much equally valuable when cast, but Emrakul can be cast more. Thus, he is better.
Your point about being able to use the zealot is a point for running a maindeck zealot/shaman, not a point for playing a stormkill.
Sorry. I got lost for time with this deck and i wanna answer: what happen with chord of coilling?? Is living wish that better??
Pact, Wish, and GSZ are all better. The debate now is between wish and GSZ as a second tutor with pact.
Indeed?? And instant that do exactly the same than gsz for just GG more but with convoke is better???
wow! i leave for a week and come back to a heated debate! awesome.
in a defense to the wish package i have actually wished for every target in board, game 1, at one time or another.
masticore is fantastic against hate bear decks.
ezuri is great for protecting against the most common sweepers and can help your team slide under ensnaring bridge(u/w counter top)
terastodon blows up everything but humility
i'm not trying to say that i've never wanted a krosan grip or to board in 4 vengevines like i used to, but in my testing the wish package is the most consistent way to go. you can complain about the extra mana cost, but you get to untap sentinels in between so you still net extra mana.
i'll have to look up nihil's list so i can test it since he's been so vocal on it. i'm always willing to give new tech a try.
Last edited by kyller83; 02-22-2011 at 12:27 AM. Reason: spelling
Nihil's list def isn't bad. It's actually insanely similar to the list I ran before I started using Emrakul. I just think wish, like you said, is more consistent. I tested GSZ last night by essentially playing with my wish build and then every time I had a wish I asked myself "would I rather have had this be a GSZ?" I will continue to do this to see which one I end up wanting more, though wish was def in the lead after last night.
I like the list and will test Wishes.There are 2 points which i don't get, why do you play 4 Birchlores and no Messangers?
2nd: Why do you open yourself up to Stifles by playing fetches? I know cardremoval and such and with Glimpse this might really matter ( studying maths so i am aware of that) but i don't want to lose matches becasue my only land or 2nd land is stifled.
Because you don't really need tutors until you're comboing.
And when you're comboing, all of your elves should tap for mana anyway.
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