SCG Article - DOOM on Time Spiral!!!

[dahcmai]

I don't get one thing. how is this deck popular at all considering the other version, Solidarity. Solidairy had problems with Aggro and this one doesn't? I don't see why it would be any better. Actually, I kind of like Solidarity better due to the instant speed kill. I guess Spiral is better against Discard, but still.

[Mana Drain]

Just ban Green Sun's Zenith. Then CB decks will be able to handle this "combo" nonsense people are clamoring about.

Also, Wild Nacatl. Fuck that guy.

[death]

Just ban Green Sun's Zenith. Then CB decks will be able to handle this "combo" nonsense people are clamoring about.

Also, Wild Nacatl. Fuck that guy.

Touche.

[Koby]

Obligatory Dec 20th, 2010 repost about IMPS (Idiot Magic Player Syndrome):

- Zoo-Player complain that they can't beat TES and refuse to play cannonist or Teeg Maindeck cuz they are so "narrow"
- some idiots claims that TES has 70% against the field (data maybe out of a 30-man local tournament) and ALWAYS kill turn 1-2. They compare the deck to Burning Desire.dec aka Long.dec

Replace TES with <combo card>, and it holds true.

[GGoober]

His list does not feature Academy Ruins...

Also: Tezzeret needs more artifacts to be worth his mana cost

Chalice + BS & STP has already been called..

1 single basic land in a list that is very mana hungry?

This list sucks, which is double sad, because finishing of his more than debatable statesments with a nice creative list might have given more weight to his thoughts..

I just went back to reread the article again for the lulz, and wanted to correct you klaus, and myself, that his UW control list does not run brainstorm. I guess that increases the power level of his turn 2 Chalice (maybe a turn 1 Chalice if he pitched a business spell on turn 1).

[Admiral_Arzar]

Obligatory Dec 20th, 2010 repost about IMPS (Idiot Magic Player Syndrome):



Replace TES with <combo card>, and it holds true.

I lol'd. It's so true, the argument has happened for EVERY combo deck that beats aggro, guaranteed. Also, IMPS should be added to like an MTGtheSource dictionary or something, because it's the most awesome descriptive phrase ever.

/tooting own horn

I just went back to reread the article again for the lulz, and wanted to correct you klaus, and myself, that his UW control list does not run brainstorm. I guess that increases the power level of his turn 2 Chalice (maybe a turn 1 Chalice if he pitched a business spell on turn 1).

A blue control deck without Brainstorm, eh? I sense a revolution in FAIL.

[markbris]

The big problem with Spiral Tide is that the main answer for it is "Be faster." Because the deck is format-defining as speed. Kill by turn four or you can't play the deck. In online testing, I've only ever lost to Dredge, Affinity, Solidarity, ANT, and some stupid Forgemaster deck that killed me turn one with a Blightsteel Colossus (Which I'm now building.)

I will say this. Spiral Tide is a stronger deck than Vengevine Survival. Not because of what it can do. But because of what you can't do to it. Vengevine Survival, for all of its massive power, could be hated out. A Swamp and an Extirpate was a huge step in the right direction. Spiral Tide has an answer for -every- solution for it other than just "Be faster" or "Be equally fast with a little more disruption."

Seriously, hating out the deck is an act of god. I know. I play it. It shrugs off hate like no deck I've ever seen ever. It can spend all of its resources removing your hate, countering your hate, then recover like it's nothing.

I absolutely love how half of you people are basically the reincarnations of the "Flash isn't overpowered" people.

Look, if you don't get it by now, Vengevine Survival fights through any normal amount of hate. Yes, you can beat the deck, if you metagame like 12-20 hate cards between maindeck and sideboard. But it took a lot less to beat Reanimator.

Vengevine is sweeping the format. Constantly. You can keep screaming your "People refuse to adapt" line forever, but you're ridiculous. The results continue to back me up. The deck just wins.

So time to ban time spiral amirite? I'm not saying ban it but going off this previous post of yours you think it should be. haha

[AngryTroll]

Shaheen Soorani has a new article up over at StarCityGames about Banning cards. Things are going just fine until the end of the article when he finally brings up the recent Dallas GP, where the Top 8 contained 32 copies of Jace, the Mind Sculptor. His verdict? Don't ban it! This is a fine perspective, and lots of people share that opinion.

However, a few paragraphs later, he re-advocates re-banning Time Spiral in Legacy.

Now, both of those positions are arguable, but they sure made me laugh coming only a few paragraphs apart. The article is worth reading. If a SCG Legacy Open Top 8 contained 32 copies of Time Spiral, I'd sure want it re-banned. But until I see it start making multiple Top 8s in the hands of players not named Hatfield, I'm not buying all of the hype. It may be good (it may be very, very good), but it hasn't put up overwhelming results to warrant a ban yet).

(Side Question: If a Legacy Open Top 8 contained 32 copies of Brainstorms or Forces, spread across 4 or 5 or 8 different decks, would that be worth banning?)

[GGoober]

Shaheen Soorani has a new article up over at StarCityGames about Banning cards. Things are going just fine until the end of the article when he finally brings up the recent Dallas GP, where the Top 8 contained 32 copies of Jace, the Mind Sculptor. His verdict? Don't ban it! This is a fine perspective, and lots of people share that opinion.

However, a few paragraphs later, he re-advocates re-banning Time Spiral in Legacy.

Now, both of those positions are arguable, but they sure made me laugh coming only a few paragraphs apart. The article is worth reading. If a SCG Legacy Open Top 8 contained 32 copies of Time Spiral, I'd sure want it re-banned. But until I see it start making multiple Top 8s in the hands of players not named Hatfield, I'm not buying all of the hype. It may be good (it may be very, very good), but it hasn't put up overwhelming results to warrant a ban yet).

(Side Question: If a Legacy Open Top 8 contained 32 copies of Brainstorms or Forces, spread across 4 or 5 or 8 different decks, would that be worth banning?)

No because they didn't ban Jace when there's 32 copies of Jace spread across 8 decks in the top 8, neither did they ban Preordain which was played as a x4 in every list.

I lol'd at his article when I read it. I think he's better off writing non-Legacy articles. His take on Extended was informative at the very least, Legacy = flawed as fuck. Also, he's rubbing Time Spiral in and out of that article (beginning with the historically known banned cards: Tolarian Academy, Yawwin, Jar, Time Spiral etc).

[Finn]

Ya gotta love articles with completely untested decks in them. I especially like the untested decks with unpopular card choices. That is the kind of thing you float to a friend for discussion. It has no business in an article.

[Doomsday]

Shaheen Soorani has a new article up over at StarCityGames about Banning cards. Things are going just fine until the end of the article when he finally brings up the recent Dallas GP, where the Top 8 contained 32 copies of Jace, the Mind Sculptor. His verdict? Don't ban it! This is a fine perspective, and lots of people share that opinion.

However, a few paragraphs later, he re-advocates re-banning Time Spiral in Legacy.

Now, both of those positions are arguable, but they sure made me laugh coming only a few paragraphs apart. The article is worth reading. If a SCG Legacy Open Top 8 contained 32 copies of Time Spiral, I'd sure want it re-banned. But until I see it start making multiple Top 8s in the hands of players not named Hatfield, I'm not buying all of the hype. It may be good (it may be very, very good), but it hasn't put up overwhelming results to warrant a ban yet).

(Side Question: If a Legacy Open Top 8 contained 32 copies of Brainstorms or Forces, spread across 4 or 5 or 8 different decks, would that be worth banning?)

Anyone close with the shot-callers at SCG? Let's see if we can get them to stop letting this guy write about Legacy. Please.

[Tacosnape]

So time to ban time spiral amirite? I'm not saying ban it but going off this previous post of yours you think it should be. haha

While your point is valid, it's not exactly what I'm trying to say. I think Spiral Tide is the stronger deck of the two, but not the more degenerately broken deck of the two.

Vengevine Survival -made- you hate it out. There was no other option. You were either running Vengevine Survival or a deck that had a lot of hate for Vengevine Survival, or you were running Vengevine Survival that ALSO had a lot of hate for Vengevine Survival. There weren't very many decks at all that naturally beat it.

Spiral Tide presents a different problem. It's very very hard to hate out. You have to beat it by being faster, or being equally as fast with a little more disruption. This is why I say it's the stronger deck.

All this said, I will say that I anticipate the point will come where Spiral Tide either needs a banning or warps the format to eliminate all decks that can't kill on turn three or faster. I'm not one hundred percent sure the right call is Time Spiral, but I do believe there's a solid chance something will have to go.

[ramanujan]

They would probably pick Merchant Scroll if they decided to ban something. I really hope that they would listen to reason first because this deck has almost no track record at this point. Merfolk wins tourneys with the same regularity that this deck does. Why no love for Combo?

[Lemnear]

Obligatory Dec 20th, 2010 repost about IMPS (Idiot Magic Player Syndrome):


Originally Posted by Lemnear
- Zoo-Player complain that they can't beat TES and refuse to play cannonist or Teeg Maindeck cuz they are so "narrow"
- some idiots claims that TES has 70% against the field (data maybe out of a 30-man local tournament) and ALWAYS kill turn 1-2. They compare the deck to Burning Desire.dec aka Long.dec


Replace TES with <combo card>, and it holds true.

Awesome you quoted a 4 month old rage-post I did. XD

But it was, is and will be true every time any kind of combo is popular. I like IMPS ... Goes hand in hand with PMS, doesn't it? Both recur periodic ... Xp

[Lemnear]

http://http://www.starcitygames.com/..._On_Combo.html

another great (sane) article from Carsten

[Amon Amarth]

Looks like REB is a legit sideboard card now.

[Lemnear]

Looks like REB is a legit sideboard card now.

I guess it was before with the rise of meerfolk and countertop

[Cthuloo]

I guess it was before with the rise of meerfolk and countertop

Reb is almost always good sideboard material, with very minor exceptions. Good piece from Carsten Kotter, it's nice to have someone that cryes against the bannings as loud as the people who cry for them.

[perm]

The SCG circuits are full of Idiot Magic Player Syndrome. People would rather play bad aggro decks and bitch about good decks than actually play decks that beat the good decks. If all the aggro players suddenly started playing Team America, Junk w/ Extirpate, Tempo Threshold, and Dreadstill, Spiral Tide would run crying into the corner (as would most of the combo decks in the format).

Wow. I'd rather punch myself in the genitals repeatedly, WITH A HAMMER, than play standard right now. I THINK IT'S ABOUT TIME WE CAN HAZ BAN ON JACE 2.0 WIZARDS???!!!!111??!!!11

Oh lordy, is this a case of "NO CARD/DECK IS BROKEN, YOU ALL JUST NEED TO BUILD YOUR DECKS TO SPECIFICALLY BEAT THESE DECKS TO HAVE A CHANCE IDIOTS"

I am not saying this specific instance is such a case, I don't have the info to make a judgement. But that is never an argument. It's not up to the players to build either an overpowered deck or a deck designed specifically to fight said deck. If a deck is so dominating that players can't play aggro, something is very, very wrong.

[Lemnear]

Oh lordy, is this a case of "NO CARD/DECK IS BROKEN, YOU ALL JUST NEED TO BUILD YOUR DECKS TO SPECIFICALLY BEAT THESE DECKS TO HAVE A CHANCE IDIOTS"

I am not saying this specific instance is such a case, I don't have the info to make a judgement. But that is never an argument. It's not up to the players to build either an overpowered deck or a deck designed specifically to fight said deck. If a deck is so dominating that players can't play aggro, something is very, very wrong.

erm ... you are not 100% correct.

You still CAN play aggro. The point is that you can't play cast-creature-attack-repeat and win big tournaments anymore (was the case in Mystical tutor and survials eras too) .... and to be honest, nobody should. Playing creature after creature after creature and always push all in the red zone shouldn't be a successful style of playing, in a game of intelligent interaction. Even a monkey can be trained to draw a card, tap all cards (mana to cast drawn card and creatures to attack), lay all cards into the field. My 2 cents.

The problem ist, that pure aggro players can't exchange fabulous mana-to-power-creatures with hatebears without sacrificing speed .... a trade-off no one want's to make -> IMPS