[Deck] Dredge

[Charlatan]

Noob question: when shoul I side Ancestor? It seems to me a lame card!

[CabalTherapy]

Noob question: when shoul I side Ancestor? It seems to me a lame card!

That's indeed a noob question.
Against: Zoo, Burn, TES, DDfT, Goblins, some Sligh... Against everything that causes you a lot of damage (life loss) in the early game.

[Vandalize]

Seriously, why are you guys talking about Misstep when you should be talking about the Blue Chancellor? That card seems incredibly overpowered, considering you can mulligan straight for it and start the game with seven cards in your discard pile for Breakthrough or Threshold for Cephalid Coliseum, that's better than DDD ever was.

Just read the card. There's an OPPONENT factor in the text.

[Charlatan]

I was retired and lost some dredgs changes/evolutions, so:

Isn't eternal witness played in dredge anymore?

[CabalTherapy]

Isn't eternal witness played in dredge anymore?

No, it's just a waste of an important slot.

[I am the brainwasher]

"No, it's just a waste of an important slot. "

- I think that it depends on your build and especially on LED or LED-less Dredge. In LEDversions I would consider playing it over Sphinx of Lost Truths. Can restore LED's for additional Deep Analysis, pick up Breakthrough/Study with floating Mana or get back a permanent discard outlet or Natures Claim/Firestorm can be a good deal and I really like the flexibility of her. In LED-less, agreed, theres no need/space for it.

[2nd_lawl]

No, it's just a waste of an important slot.

Its basically just worse than sun titan.

[Sims]

Its basically just worse than sun titan.

I disagree.

Sun titan doesn't get you breakthrough back. Sun titan doesn't get nature's claim/chain of vapor back to get rid of an ensnaring bridge or moat stopping you.

They serve different purposes depending on the build.

[CabalTherapy]

Its basically just worse than sun titan.

I kind of agree with that.
But that is just another start of a DR target discussion...

When you can cast Dread Return targetin' an non-GGTroll-creature it should be "win" or somekind of a lock like Iona, Flame-Kin or Elesh (New Phyrexia). That's just my point of view.
But when you're tapped out, you're opponent wasted your lands than a Witness picking up a Breakthrough is like giving the opponent another turn to act.

[2nd_lawl]

I disagree.

Sun titan doesn't get you breakthrough back. Sun titan doesn't get nature's claim/chain of vapor back to get rid of an ensnaring bridge or moat stopping you.

They serve different purposes depending on the build.

You can just bring back coliseum, which is just as good as breakthrough, but cant be mental mistepped.

[2nd_lawl]

I kind of agree with that.
But that is just another start of a DR target discussion...

When you can cast Dread Return targetin' an non-GGTroll-creature it should be "win" or somekind of a lock like Iona, Flame-Kin or Elesh (New Phyrexia). That's just my point of view.
But when you're tapped out, you're opponent wasted your lands than a Witness picking up a Breakthrough is like giving the opponent another turn to act.

I play sun titan instead of sphinx of lost truths, not instead of FKZ. Sun titan does everything sphinx does, but also has alot of corner case applications, and lets you play serenity in your sideboard.

[Sims]

I kind of agree with that.
But that is just another start of a DR target discussion...

When you can cast Dread Return targetin' an non-GGTroll-creature it should be "win" or somekind of a lock like Iona, Flame-Kin or Elesh (New Phyrexia). That's just my point of view.
But when you're tapped out, you're opponent wasted your lands than a Witness picking up a Breakthrough is like giving the opponent another turn to act.

Then why not pick up a land? I don't run witness, heck I don't run any DR targets maindeck outside of Troll and only Zealot and Chosen in my board, but I could see times with Titan i'd rather just get witness and get back the breakthrough or land or claim/grudge/chain/poison of choice. I can see reasons for running both but I don't think either one is good enough. And while cool, i'm not sure how effective running Titan and Serenity is... having to dredge away two 1-of's and still needing time for it to go off seems too cute to be truly effective.

[CabalTherapy]

Then why not pick up a land? I don't run witness, heck I don't run any DR targets maindeck outside of Troll and only Zealot and Chosen in my board, but I could see times with Titan i'd rather just get witness and get back the breakthrough or land or claim/grudge/chain/poison of choice. I can see reasons for running both but I don't think either one is good enough. And while cool, i'm not sure how effective running Titan and Serenity is... having to dredge away two 1-of's and still needing time for it to go off seems too cute to be truly effective.

I don't want to be misunderstood.
I am not running Titan, Witness, Serenity or something like that. Also don't think that this is good.
Titan is weaker than Iona, FKZ, Sphinx... and other MB DR targets, but stronger than Witness^^.

[Sims]

Never said that you did or were running any of the above. Was kind of responding to two posts at once. My bad on that.

[Wakkarr]

I play sun titan instead of sphinx of lost truths, not instead of FKZ. Sun titan does everything sphinx does, but also has alot of corner case applications, and lets you play serenity in your sideboard.

How does it do everything that Sphinx does? Sure if you have an untapped land you can get back a coliseum to draw 3, which assumes you didnt get wastelanded or that your land is tapped because you just cast a breakthrough/careful study,otherwise you need to wait a turn to get back 2 lands, assuming you dont get wastelanded or the Titan gets killed. Plus Sphinx can be dread returned, sacced to Therapy, then dread returned again to go through your whole deck in a single turn.

[ivanpei]

I think the best way is to just play through misstep. Play the MAX number of discard outlets and we should be ok. In Blue decks, Misstep replaces Daze/Spell Pierce, so their answer density remains the same. We still beat those decks anyway, so it's not a problem IMO. I don't believe dredge has the available slots to do anything about Misstep, we just have to live with it.

Aggro decks that play misstep will benefit, but this reduces their threat level as well, slowing them down. Dredge is unlike other combo because dredge has plenty redundancy. Do you lose to just 1 force? Nope, this isn't belcher, so we shouldn't lose to 1 misstep either. I don't think LEDs are the right call against misstep. Sure you have 4 extra 0cc un-missteppable outlets, but your careful study/breakthrough can still be misstepped.

Playing 2cc spells like Tolarian Winds is also quite bad because this deck just has 15 lands, so it's not going to be easy to consistently get 2 mana sources.

[NecroYawgmoth]

Maybe you are right as the (IMO) good lists play 4 Pimp / Tribe / Careful Study... lowering on this cards is an essential misstake when playing Dredge...

Also, If Mental Misstep will have such an high impact, what about Firestorm as additional outlet? Yep, the costs are additional.
The card isn't that bad, and I played 2 main sometimes in the past, as it is also good against aggro =P

[2nd_lawl]

Uhh, you bring back led to flashback deep analysis or a hapless reasearcher. Have you even been paying attention?

[ivanpei]

Uhh, you bring back led to flashback deep analysis or a hapless reasearcher. Have you even been paying attention?

And if you don't draw deep analysis? What if you have deep anal in hand but no LED? Thats the thing about LED lists, they're very inconsistent. LED lists ideally want to draw LED and go crazy into a Deep Analysis into even more crazy. Point is, to go crazy in the first place, you still need Careful Study/Breakthrough and those are still Missteppable. And regarding preempting Missteps. What? You do know it's a free spell like Force right?

I have LEDs yet I still don't play them, I prefer consistency. Now with Missteps I would say the LED lists are even worse. You need every single discard outlet/draw spell you can afford to play. Wasting slots for fragile combo components seems unwise.

@ Necro, I agree firestorm is a great card. I play the usual Max discard outlets and usually Firestorm fights with Tribe for slots MD.Tribe IMO is a better card when on the play and helps you pitch stuff every turn. Tribe is also great against dudes, similar to Firestorm. I think Firestorm should be played in addition to Tribe and not instead of Tribe in the MD.

Question is what to cut? IMO the cuttable things are the 4th Thug, the 4th Ichorid, the 15th Land or the 2nd Dread Return. If mental misstep Forces us to have more MD discard outlets, I'd cut a Thug and an Ichorid for 2 Firestorms. Actually I've also tested entomb in Dredge. It's honestly a pretty good card to see in your opening hand. I eventually cut it though. Maybe it could make a comeback as an additional discard outlet?

[Charlatan]

Here is a pick from my deck. Still runing 3 unmask and 1 witness.

http://www.ligamagic.com.br/fotolog/...c6522647c1.jpg

The witness healped a lot when i didnt started with SB in my hand. I bought an IONA, but i'm afraid of running it, i just feel as if I could win with out this creep in the board.

In about 2 months, there is going to happen the qualifiers to the most important brazilian legacy tournament and I have 3 options: Gobbos, Ichorid and Canadian UGR.

In Brazil, there is a very aggro meta. A lot of folks and Zoo...