The same exact things can be said of Tarmogoyf; he can change games from losing to winning, and having 3 (or even better, 4) in your deck is better than the singleton XYZ card.Originally Posted by CorpT
So why is it that these decks are only running 3x Goyf:
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=38179
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=38056
If you're running GSZ, there is no reason you have to run 4x Goyf.
Tom? Is that you? I thought you were going to go work on DnD?
So why is it that these decks are running 4x Goyf and GSZ?
http://thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.ph...4&iddeck=43236
http://thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.ph...1&iddeck=43432
http://thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.ph...1&iddeck=43426
http://thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.ph...4&iddeck=43236
Isn't this fun?
lol...4 goyfs are very important.
Woah! Are those from Invitation Qualifiers?! With 34 people in them. That is impressive.
Look, I'm not saying you can't run 4x Goyf. I'm saying you don't have to. People are winning without 4x Goyf. It is possible. GSZ allows you to play both tutor targets and less than 4 Goyfs.
Tom? Is that you? I thought you were going to go work on DnD?
I agree with CorpT,
With GSZ you can afford playing 3 goyfs, the jittes are quite important, and without something like Stoneforge Mystique, you should be playing 2x.
This is the list that took 2nd place in last SCG open. I playtested a bit and I'm thinking about adding 3 Vindicate / Maelstrom Pulse - some problems with planeswalkers and enchants like humility occured - into main but I faced the problem what should be removed. Probably I will decide to play Pulses due to the fact that adding Zenith's shifted deck towards green colour. However I really don't have idea what to take out. Any hints?
Artifacts
3 Mox Diamond
3 Sensei's Divining Top
Creatures
1 Birds of Paradise
4 Dark Confidant
4 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Qasali Pridemage
3 Tarmogoyf
Instants
4 Swords to Plowshares
Legendary Artifacts
2 Umezawa's Jitte
Legendary Creatures
1 Gaddock Teeg
Sorceries
3 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
Basic Lands
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Swamp
Lands
3 Bayou
1 Bojuka Bog
4 Marsh Flats
1 Maze of Ith
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland
Land Creatures
1 Dryad Arbor
Legendary Lands
1 Volrath's Stronghold
Sideboard:
1 Null Rod
2 Pithing Needle
1 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Choke
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Perish
i would take out senseis
your mana base isn't all to big so its not too bad to eat a 3 life with bob. also, you have plenty of lands in the deck for the life loss cushion. and jitte helps you get life.
Top isn't there just to prevent life loss on Bob. It's also to filter your draws, especially with all the fetches. Go watch some GGS matches where the Rock player leads with Top. It is amazing how much of a difference it can make.
Tom? Is that you? I thought you were going to go work on DnD?
hey i'm just giving him suggestiosn since he wants to play pulse. there is no other card i could think of to take that slot.
In attrition battles, the player with Top usually wins. Top, regardless of Bob, is one of the best cards in the deck. Against everything that isn't fast combo, I'd say it's about the best turn 1 play you could resolve.
I'm just not seeing what you can cut for Vindicate/Pulse. With GSZ, the deck plays a little differently and wants to aggressively GSZ for Teeg more often as a means of proactively stopping things that would otherwise require Vindicate/Pulse.
Tom? Is that you? I thought you were going to go work on DnD?
So any hint how to get 3 slots running this list or it is not possible to figure out what can be replaced?
top is better than a turn 1 thoughtseize? thats hard to believe.
i am trying to fit in a second jitte in my list, but i do not know what to cut, ..... jitte is indeed incredibly powerfull, even with so few creatures on our side.
i am running a moxless build now, and am very happy with it, and the only slots i am thinking i could sacrifice are the 2nd quasali, or the 2nd deed, or the 4th vindicate
my list for reference
61 cards (this will never change^^, every deck of mine has that many cards^^)
23 lands
4 bob
4 goyf
4 kotr
2 quasali
4 thoughtseize
2 inquisition
4 hymn
4 vindicate
2 deed
4 stop
3 sdt
1 jitte
this list fits my playstyle way better than the moxbuilds, and the jitte has just been awesome to me.... that aside i love the addictional targeted discard instead of the mox, with 6 "thoughtseize" i can start allmost every game with it and that is stronger than a 1st turn bob/hymn/goyf IMO
to the topic of cutting 4th goyf if running GSZ.... i do not like the idea at all, goyf is dumb sure, but is to strong to cut IMO. cutting threats for jitte seems wrong to me, since you still need a creature to attach it to, and you cannot expect that GSZ allways solves that problem
to GSZ-users,.... is a maindeck Teeg really that strong? ... i did not test yet, so please enlighten me on this one
you probably can cut a bob. since you are running 3 sdt and you have the gofys fetched with the gsz.
Why? A resolved Top absolutely affects the course of the entire game, not just the first few turns. Changing dead draws like late-game discard or Moxen or land into actual threats or removal can be the difference between winning and losing.
Granted, so is grabbing a win condition from belcher or a tutor from TES, but the cases for T1 Thoughtseize being game-breaking are much more narrow.
problem with a turn one top is that you have no information on their hand. I could care less about taking the win con with the thoughtseize...well i do care, but information is key in this game.
if i had 1 mana, i can cast either a top or a toughtseize, i would go for the thoughtseize.
As I stated earlier, unless you're facing fast combo, why do you opt for Thoughtseize turn 1 instead of turn 1 Top (assuming you have both in hand)? We are threat-lite and we also grind games out via discard and removal to the point where matches often become wars of attrition and resources; Top gives us a decided advantage in getting to threats sooner if the situation calls for it, and it also helps us win the attrition battle.
IMO, it's much more valuable to try to get a Top down asap as opposed to Thoughtseizing on turn 1... combo matchups notwithstanding.
I run 0 copies in my Bant deck. Depends on what you're doing. Sometimes 'goyf just isn't good enough. 99% of the time in Rock you'd rather have a KotR on the board than a Tarmogoyf.
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