[Deck] Dredge

[Joe_C]

If I'm going second and I see an Island it is kinda obvious I'm going to DDD. The main issue is when we win the die roll and lead with t1 Tribe/PImp/Study, because we have a second one to play next turn. If our opponent plays 4x Force of Will and 4x Mental Misstep, he probably has a chance of 62,9% or so to have one in his opening grip, meaning our first discard outlet is almost certainly going to be countered: maybe the second one is going to be countered, too. I mean, I'm doing phantom tests against Misstep - at the beginning of the game my opponent searches his library for a Tarmogoyf and a MM, then draws 5 cards, while I normally draw my seven. Most times I have another discard outlet which is going to win the game for me - but if I'm not having it, I'm losing to a creature. How should we adapt?

I'm intending on keeping with nonLED and playing the sphinx/zealot kill again. If you are going to win, win fast before they can gain positive board position. What we can hope for game 1 is to go as deep into our deck as we can as fast as we can and board wisely for games 2 and 3. you can keep the combo in, but we would be more reliant on cephalid coliseum than breakthrough.

[Darklingske]

So dredge has finished in the top 16 of BoM (A legacy tournament with a whopping 687 people attending!). I'm looking forward to see his list. Until now, no list have been posted.

[(nameless one)]

So dredge has finished in the top 16 of BoM (A legacy tournament with a whopping 687 people attending!). I'm looking forward to see his list. Until now, no list have been posted.

Do we at least know if its an LED or non-LED list?

[Gui]

Do we at least know if its an LED or non-LED list?

Afaik, BoM takes forever to release the lists,..

The guy is german, and acording to a german friend of mine, the guy always plays the classical LEDless list with no DR targets, 12 dredgers, 2 DR, and 4 grudge+4claim SB, with few DR targets SB, including Iona and Chosen, but no Sphynx. Something like that, but it's not confirmed that he played this list there.

Besides, he has beaten Merfolks, the impossible mental misstep match, on one of the top8 games. Where's god now? xD

[Brot_Ohne_Kruste]

Hello,

I'm the guy who piloted the Dredge-Deck to the 4th place (2nd after swiss) at Bazaar of Moxen. Actually it was a pretty standard LEDless-list. I played against many Mental Missteps, but that wasn't a big problem. Sure, it may be annoying, but it is almost like each other counter. I played the Legacy trial on friday with the same list and went 6-2-0 (12th place out of about 150 players / a friend of mine made the 9th with the same list).

Here are the matchup I've faced:
Trial:
1. Team America 0-2
2. Mono U Merfolk 2-1
3. GW Maverick 2-1
4. Lands 2-1
5. Next Level Thresh Urg 2-1
6. Big Zoo 2-0
7. Mono U Merfolk 2-1
8. Canadian Thresh 1-2

Main event:
1. Countertop 2-0
2. Rb Goblin 2-0
3. Mono U Merfolk 0-2
4. GW Maverick 2-1
5. Team America 2-1
6. ANT 2-0
7. Ur Painter 2-1
8. ANT 2-0
9. Caw Go with Topther Foundry Combo 2-0
Top 16: Mono U Merfolk 2-1 (lost one game due to brainfart)
Top 8: Sneak Show 2-0
Top 4: Ub Reanimator 0-2

So, 16-4-0 overall isn't that bad I think :-).

This is the SB I played:
1 Elesh Horn
1 Realm Razer
1 Iona
1 Hypnotist
4 Claim
4 Grudge
2 Ray
1 Darkblast

Maindeck I played 1 Darkblast and 3 Thug.

[(nameless one)]

Hello,

I'm the guy who piloted the Dredge-Deck to the 4th place (2nd after swiss) at Bazaar of Moxen. Actually it was a pretty standard LEDless-list. I played against many Mental Missteps, but that wasn't a big problem. Sure, it may be annoying, but it is almost like each other counter. I played the Legacy trial on friday with the same list and went 6-2-0 (12th place out of about 150 players / a friend of mine made the 9th with the same list).
....
....

How did your main list look like?

When did you side-in Elesh Norn and how did she perform?

I noticed that you didn't play Chain of Vapor on your side. Was Nature's Claim good enough that it didn't need Chain of Vapor? Also, why no Leyline of the Void? In an unknown meta (or a huge tournament), I would never remove them from my sideboard, since they're awesome against mirror and graveyard-based decks (you did lose to Reanimator on semi).

I also noticed that all your loses came from blue-based tempo decks (Team America, Canadian Thresh, Merfolk). Did Mental Misstep played a huge role on your loses?

[Gui]

There it is, then. I was almost right xD
Just to make it clear, the standard list is the one with no DR targets, right?

Didn't miss Chosen, I take it? Elesh Norn is better for the spot?

You should write us a report, that would be the best read in a while ^^

[Godmode]

Post your Maindeck list dude.. nice job

And can you tell us what did you borad in agianst each of the match-ups please? That would be awesome

[chags]

Nicely done, congrats on the great finish. I'd be interested to know what you attribute your losses to (bad breaks, mental misstep, brainfart, etc..)

[1maarten1]

Post your Maindeck list dude.. nice job

And can you tell us what did you borad in agianst each of the match-ups please? That would be awesome

Dude... read the thread. Basic LED-dredge is this:
3x Ichorid
4x Golgari Grave-Troll
4x Stinkweed Imp
3x Goglari Thug
1x Darkblast
4x Putrid Imp
4x Tireless Tribe
4x Narcomoeba

2x Dread Return
4x Careful STudy
4x Cabal Therapy
4x Breakthrough
4x Bridge from Below

4x City of Brass
4x Gemstone Mine
4x Cephalid Coliseum
3x Tarnished Citadel

Like he said he took the darkblast over the 4th thug.

[Izor]

Yep, this is exactly the German LEDless build, tuned and tested thoroughly and (at least in Germany and by myself) found to be the most optimal build one can run in the current Legacy metagame.

Congratz on the awesome finish and thumbs up for beating MMs.

The recent results from SCG open this weekend is not that cool I think. 7 decks in the Top 8 played MM, and 12 out of Top 16. Damn centralizing, right? I'm curious how that will develop. But having only 4-5 archetypes in a SCG open Top 16 is kind of meh...

[Brot_Ohne_Kruste]

The list posted by 1maarten1 is exactly the one I played.

When did you side-in Elesh Norn and how did she perform?

I just sided it in against Goblins once. It hit the board and he gave up, so it was quite okay.

I noticed that you didn't play Chain of Vapor on your side. Was Nature's Claim good enough that it didn't need Chain of Vapor? Also, why no Leyline of the Void? In an unknown meta (or a huge tournament), I would never remove them from my sideboard, since they're awesome against mirror and graveyard-based decks (you did lose to Reanimator on semi).

Actually, I just boarded Nature's Claim just once and then I've lost against Reanimator in the Semifinals. I never really needed it. Neither I needed the Chain ;).

If you know how to play your deck, you should likely win the mirror. For such an rare MU, same goes for Reanimator, I don't want to waste SB-space. I wouldn't have won the game against Reanimator even if I had Leyline in play.

I also noticed that all your loses came from blue-based tempo decks (Team America, Canadian Thresh, Merfolk). Did Mental Misstep played a huge role on your loses?

The Team America- and Canadian Thresh-players where both pretty good. They knew how to play the hate and they had plenty of them^^. The Merfolk-player just had many fast guys I couldn't handle. If I recall correctly, he misstept one of my outlets, but I don't think it played a huge role. In the Team America- and Canadian Thresh-games I saw Mental Missteps, but they weren't really relevant.

Didn't miss Chosen, I take it? Elesh Norn is better for the spot?

No, I didn't. I tried the Chosen a few times before Elesh Norn was released, but I never wasn't impressed by him, so the last times I played the deck, I played without him :). I think Elesh Norn is better on what you want: kill non-blue Tribal/Aggro-decks.

You should write us a report, that would be the best read in a while ^^

Maybe I will ;). I finished my german report right now, if I've got time, I'll probably write an english one.

And can you tell us what did you borad in agianst each of the match-ups please? That would be awesome

In the games I played, I boarded like that:
- Team America: -1 Tribe, -1 Breakthrough, -1 Dread Return, (-1 Darkblast); +3 Ancient Grudge, (+1 Ray)
- Merfolk: -2 Dread Return, -1 Putrid Imp, -1 Breakthrough; +3 Ancient Grudge, +1 Darkblast
- GW Maverick: -1 Dread Return, -1 Putrid Imp, -1 Thug, -1 Breakthrough; +3 Grudge, +1 Darkblast (Hierarch, Mother)
- Lands: -1 Putrid Imp, -1 Darkblast, -1 Breakthrough, -1 Ichorid; +2 Ancient Grudge, +1 Hypnotist, +1 Realm Razer
- Next Level Thresh Urg: -1 Putrid Imp, -1 Breakthrough, -1 Dread Return, -1 Thug; +1 Darkblast (Lavamancer), +3 Grudge
- Big Zoo: Like GW Maverick I think
- Canadian Thresh: -1 Putrid Imp, -1 Breakthrough, -1 Dread Return; +3 Ancient Grudge
- Countertop: -1 Putrid Imp, -1 Breakthrough, -1 Dread Return; +3 Ancient Grudge
- Rb Goblin: -1 Putrid Imp, -1 Breakthrough, -1 Thug, -1 Ichorid; +1 Elesh Norn, +1 Darkblast, +2 Grudge
- ANT: -1 Putrid Imp, -1 Darkblast; +1 Hypnotist, +1 Iona
- Ur Painter: -1 Putrid Imp, -1 Breakthrough, -1 Dread Return, -1 Darkblast, +4 Grudge
- Caw Go with Topther Foundry Combo: -1 Putrid Imp, -1 Breakthrough, -1 Dread Return, -1 Thug; +1 Darkblast, +3 Grudge
- Sneak Show: -1 Tribe, -1 Breakthrough, -1 Dread Return, -1 Darkblast; +3 Grudge, +1 Ray
- Ub Reanimator: -1 Tribe, -1 Breakthrough, -1 Dread Return, -1 Darkblast; +3 Nature's Claim, +1 Grudge

I hope I got all these boardings right. I don't recall all of them.

Nicely done, congrats on the great finish. I'd be interested to know what you attribute your losses to (bad breaks, mental misstep, brainfart, etc..)

Thank you :). As stated above, I face two good players and many blue men ;).

[Digital Devil]

<interesting things about the tournament>

'grats for your finish. Both you and Dredge (as an archetype) deserved that. I'm so happy my favourite deck isn't going to change that much because of a design error. Unluckily, I still fear the "Mental Misstep Menace", so I don't know whether I should play the same exact list I've been doing for ages, or a different one. My main concerns are countermagic and lots of creatures, so I was considering Firestorm. Should I play a list like post #1490, -1 Darkblast, -1 Study/Breakthrough, -1 Citadel, +3 Firestorm? Also, what do you think about Breakthrough? I used to love that card, but against non-storm decks I still won on the back of Careful Study, which not only acts as both discard and gas, it can also be used to search for answers/sculpt the hand, and is a strong spell against Relic of Progenitus (3 cards hitting the grave at once, meaning my opponent can't EOT tap Relic and repeat the process during his turn). I thought: if I'm still able to win g2 against Zoo/Merfolk without Breakthrough and through graveyard hate, why can't I do it g1 with more ease? That's why I was thinking my 4x Breakthrough/3x Study split should become 4x Study/3x Firestorm. This way, I have access to 15 effective discard outlets (4x Cabal Therapy being 16-19, in case of emergency), which almost guarantees me to have 1/2 in my opening. It also opens the chances of having actual creature removal/reach: most times it isn't needed (I never played the Instant, and I also used to despise it), although throwing cards in the bin just because I only had Breakthrough as a "discard outlet" made me sad. Suddenly, a hypotethical hand consisting of double land (better if one of 'em is Coliseum), dredger, random useless cards and Firestorm becomes keepable. With Breakthrough I would've mulled that, unless I knew my opponent's playing a blue deck, me being on the draw.

P.S. - Also by playing maindeck Firestorm this deck reaches the 3rd degree of awesomeness, 'cause it has cards of every single color in the game.

P.P.S. - Ancient Grudge counts, too, though only g2/g3.

[chags]

Brot_ohne_Kruste: Thanks for all the info on the deck. My list has a few differences from yours, I run FKZ over hypnotist but I think I am going to switch that, I run only 1 ancient grudge and cut the slot you have realm razer in for 4 firestorm. I think firestorm is really good in this meta and 5 artifact destruction spells seems like enough to me. I also don't run any darkblasts (main or sb) and run Terastodon in that spot with 4 golgari thug main. Darkblast doesn't kill enough of the creatures I want it to and with 4 firestorm I don't think I need it. I feel like I'm missing something obvious but what match ups does realm razer come in for? Lands?

@Digital Devil: I like breakthrough too much to cut it but I do think you should fit firestorm in your list. Breakthrough and firestorm serve different functions, one allows you to accelerate your dredging while the other gets dredgers in the yard (breakthrough is not used primarily for this function but can be used this way for less gain). I just think breakthrough wins the vast majority of games it resolves. Let us know how testing without them goes.

[Brot_Ohne_Kruste]

I've written a cute, little report :): http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...352#post548352

I think firestorm is really good in this meta and 5 artifact destruction spells seems like enough to me. I also don't run any darkblasts (main or sb) and run Terastodon in that spot with 4 golgari thug main. Darkblast doesn't kill enough of the creatures I want it to and with 4 firestorm I don't think I need it. I feel like I'm missing something obvious but what match ups does realm razer come in for? Lands?

I don't really like the Firestorms. The Matchups you want to win with this card you are going to win these games most likely without it anyways. At least that's my experience I made.

The role of Darkblast is another that Firestorm fills: Firestorm is more an Outlet that kills the creatures of the opponent, but it's just one time. Darkblast is also good at protecting your own creatures from Swords/Paths or protecting your Bridges. It can slow down your opponent and give you an permanent Dredger, but in most situation it's good to generate more tokens and win. E.g. if you attack with 2 Ichorids and 2 Moeba, having a few Bridges in your grave, and he has got one blocker which would die to an Ichorid, you can just blast the blocked Ichorid, and generate tokens. The other Ichorid dies, you are generating tokens again. In the next turn he would be probably dead. And you can respond to the removing Bridge-trigger by killing one guy to generate more tokens.
But as stated above, the best thing is to protect your Ichorids against Swords/Paths. It's such a good card, I just love it :).

I feel like I'm missing something obvious but what match ups does realm razer come in for? Lands?

Against every Deck that is playing Tabernacle and/or Glacial Chasm. So, most likely Lands :).

@ Artifact-removal-spells in the SB: I would never ever cut the Ancient Grudges. The are just too good. Actually I boarded them in against almost every deck. The Claims weren't used very often because they can't destroy two artifacts with one card. For me 4 Grudes, 4 Claims and 2 Rays in the SB are set in stone :).

@Digital Devil: Yeah, please let us know how the testing is working out.

[Gui]

Plus tech, Realm Razer can enter against High Tide, and is decent against Enchantress.

I really like your play style Brot_Ohne_Kruste, really good! Thanks for posting all the info ^^

[Digital Devil]

@Digital Devil: I like breakthrough too much to cut it but I do think you should fit firestorm in your list. Breakthrough and firestorm serve different functions, one allows you to accelerate your dredging while the other gets dredgers in the yard (breakthrough is not used primarily for this function but can be used this way for less gain). I just think breakthrough wins the vast majority of games it resolves. Let us know how testing without them goes.

Actually I still like Breakthrough, only less than I used to. Though if I want to play Firestorm I have to either remove Breakthrough, or go down to 3x Ichorid, 2x Dread Return and no maindeck target (the latter being more appealing than the former: I mean, most lists aren't playing DR targets anyway).

I don't really like the Firestorms. The Matchups you want to win with this card you are going to win these games most likely without it anyways. At least that's my experience I made.

That's why I used to hate the card, and why I always thought Darkblast was like Over 9000 times better - I'm just giving it a try to see how it performs.

The role of Darkblast is another that Firestorm fills: Firestorm is more an Outlet that kills the creatures of the opponent, but it's just one time.

I love Darkblast, too - it's incredibly strong since it acts as removal, protection, mills for 3, and at worst, it discards itself. Plus, the name is so... bombastic.

@ Artifact-removal-spells in the SB: I would never ever cut the Ancient Grudges. The are just too good. Actually I boarded them in against almost every deck. The Claims weren't used very often because they can't destroy two artifacts with one card. For me 4 Grudges, 4 Claims and 2 Rays in the SB are set in stone.

Same here.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
P.S. - Thanks for your report!!!

[chags]

Well siding in your ancient grudges was probably what won you a lot of your games but think of how merfolk might have played out with firestorm, after all you did say you got beat by them swarming you. Maybe I am running too few responses to hate but if you run 4 grudge why run 4 claim? You almost never brought in both in the tournament (only against reanimator) and you NEVER brought in 4 of either. The most grudges you ever sided in was 3, sometimes going as few as 2 and the most claims you boarded in was also 3 against the only match up you brought them in at all for. This makes me think that at the very least you could probably drop to 3 Ancient Grudge, 2 Nature's Claim, 2 Ray of revelation or even 3 grudge 3 claim 2 ray. 4 of each just seems unnecessary as proven by your sideboarding strategy. Also terastadon answers all the lands that you are scared of that realm razer would answer (except high tide if you tried to do that) while also being able to answer other random cards like moat, why not just play the giant elephant? Worst case scenario he can blow your own lands to offer you more dudes. Not trying to nit pick your list, I actually like most of it a lot, just looking for some clarification. Thanks again for all the info.

[4eak]

Funny enough, 4 pages ago, in response to chags, I had pointed out the same maindeck of Brot_Ohne_Kruste, and a sideboard that was only 3 cards different.

Now, perhaps Brot_Ohne_Kruste has a different reason for running so much Anti-GY hate, but I continue to find that having as many answers to hate when I want them has been very powerful. I do worry about Leyline (even if some people don't), and you need Claims and Rays in a decent quantity to have a reasonable chance to open a hand with an answer and land. In addition, hate varies with some odd matchups. Beyond GY-hate, there are cards I'm interested in answering which a heavy disenchant sideboard does, plus it gives some pretty powerful plays against Enchantress, Affinity, Stax, MUD, etc. (granted, some of these I never know when or if I'm going to see them)


peace,
4eak

[Brot_Ohne_Kruste]

Well siding in your ancient grudges was probably what won you a lot of your games but think of how merfolk might have played out with firestorm, after all you did say you got beat by them swarming you. Maybe I am running too few responses to hate but if you run 4 grudge why run 4 claim? You almost never brought in both in the tournament (only against reanimator) and you NEVER brought in 4 of either. The most grudges you ever sided in was 3, sometimes going as few as 2 and the most claims you boarded in was also 3 against the only match up you brought them in at all for. This makes me think that at the very least you could probably drop to 3 Ancient Grudge, 2 Nature's Claim, 2 Ray of revelation or even 3 grudge 3 claim 2 ray. 4 of each just seems unnecessary as proven by your sideboarding strategy. Also terastadon answers all the lands that you are scared of that realm razer would answer (except high tide if you tried to do that) while also being able to answer other random cards like moat, why not just play the giant elephant? Worst case scenario he can blow your own lands to offer you more dudes. Not trying to nit pick your list, I actually like most of it a lot, just looking for some clarification. Thanks again for all the info.

To be honest, I'm not really good in building decks I think. Actually I do at maximum just little testings on the matchups and whatsoever when I start playing new decks. A friend of mine techs out almost all decks I play (at least in the last time). He always says: "Here, it's one of the best decks in the format, you're forced to be played this list, you can't resist".

That beeing said, the reasons why you're running so much hate is exactly like "4eak" stated: You want to win against random decks. To get swarmed can always happen, actually you will most likely win these Matchups, why should I put hate against creatures into my board? But you're more likely beaten by graveyardhate AND random decks like Enhantress and Stacks than beeing swarmed. I want to beat random decks with my Sideboard and the rest with skill :D.

€://

I really like your play style Brot_Ohne_Kruste, really good! Thanks for posting all the info ^^

Thanks a lot :).