[SCD] Mental Misstep

[Mr. Safety]

@ Mr. Safety

That is an interesting argument. Wizards might be trying to do what you say, but regardless, it isn't working. MM makes Force of Will better, and it seems MM belongs in a deck with FoW (and not really without). So, rather than MM being a way to replace FoW in any manner, it simply complements and strengthens FoW, making FoW that much more important to run if you are playing MM. It looks like dropping $200 is still worth it. This might too hasty a conclusion though; clearly MM can be played in non-blue decks, and maybe we've not given deck-builders and the metagame enough time to see what MM can really do and how it will really impact Legacy.


peace,
4eak

I didn't meant that it wouldn't be a smart investment, it's just DIFFICULT. Family and bill collectors have very strong opinions about how I spend my money, lol.

I look at it this way:

Scenario A:

Buffalo Bill has all the staple cards of legacy (Wastelands, duels, fetches, forces, Goyfs, etc.) He uses Mental Misstep to augment his blue strategies (should he decide to play blue) and it makes his staples go that much further in his deckbuilding goals. He invests about $20 for a playset of Mental Misstep and considers it 'chump change' to making sure he has the cards to compete.

Scenario B:

Noobie Ned has very few staple cards of legacy. Sure he's got the playsets of Daze, Brainstorm, Knight of the Reliquary, Lightning Bolt, and Qasali Pridemage. Ned can't find a reasonable source for Force of Will (and can't afford them even if he could find a source.) Ned invests about $20 for a playset of Mental Misstpe and considers it 'money well spent' because he now has a set of cards that can let him play competitive blue magic without having ALL the other staples.

In a nuthsell: both are spending roughly $20 (or more for noobies that buy sealed product) for Mental Misstep. Buffalo Bill refines his deck and chugs along like normal. Noobie Ned just worked himself into legacy without spending a ton of cash to do so, and has a powerful card that will work well in the format. Wizards says: bingo, win win! Old legacy players are contributing economically and new legacy players are born.

That's kind of my take on it...I'm not sure if folks remember when Thoughtseize came out (essentially the best targeted removal printed.) They still go for roughly $15-20 a piece, and for good reason, it's a powerful effect. BUT, they reprinted Duress, which can be got for around $2. THEN THEY TOPPED IT when they printed Inquizition of Kozilek. BINGO! Win win!!! Old legacy players can now supplement Thoughtseize (or play IoK in lieu of it because they are using Bob). New legacy players can play black magic and be competitive.

I've heard gripes about power creep anywhere from 'extended is a usless format' to 'standard is broken' to 'why not just have one format, legacy.' I don't see power creep as a bad thing...it's creating an environment where New Legacy players can get involved simply by being up-to-speed on the current sets and purchasing a handful of common/uncommon staples and staple lands. It will create (eventually) a schism between the Old Generation and the New Generation of legacy players. The new generation will have decks that compete...they'll just use different cards. This is why I like Mental Misstep so much. I've said it before: very few cards printed in new sets end up making the cut in legacy. Each time one does, it adds more depth to the format.

[Star|Scream]

@ Mr. Safety

That is an interesting argument. Wizards might be trying to do what you say, but regardless, it isn't working. MM makes Force of Will better, and it seems MM belongs in a deck with FoW (and not really without). So, rather than MM being a way to replace FoW in any manner, it simply complements and strengthens FoW, making FoW that much more important to run if you are playing MM. It looks like dropping $200 is still worth it. This might too hasty a conclusion though; clearly MM can be played in non-blue decks, and maybe we've not given deck-builders and the metagame enough time to see what MM can really do and how it will really impact Legacy.


peace,
4eak

I think the 'speculation' would be banning of FOW in response to printing this card, precisely because it makes FOW so much more damned powerful. Hell even counterspell is more powerful now.

Mr. Safety: I would blindly assert that you cannot compete in blue with misstep and NO FOW as long as other people are playing with misstep AND FOW

[Mr. Safety]

I think I didn't explain myself...I see a New and Old generation of legacy players...those noobs like me trying to get in, but don't have the old staples, and the good 'ol boys that do have the old staples. Whether or not you CAN compete is irrelivant...noobs will try. Maybe fail badly, but try. Remember that Mental Messtep also makes Spell Snare, Spell Pierce and Daze, better, too...and those are stand-by Force-answers and powerful spells in the format. You can now concievably play a tempo deck (for the most part) without Force of Will. Hard control? Most likely not.

Just my opinion...I think there is enough interest in the format that eventually, it will just 'run out' of old staples. More and more folks will still try to play it though, and that's where the New Generation idea comes from. I mean, how many times have you played MWS and seen someone trying to take their 'competitive' extended or standard deck and try it against a legacy deck (I've seen it more times than I can count)? They fail miserably, but not from lack of trying, that's for sure...

[(nameless one)]

I think I didn't explain myself...I see a New and Old generation of legacy players...those noobs like me trying to get in, but don't have the old staples, and the good 'ol boys that do have the old staples. Whether or not you CAN compete is irrelivant...noobs will try. Maybe fail badly, but try. Remember that Mental Messtep also makes Spell Snare, Spell Pierce and Daze, better, too...and those are stand-by Force-answers and powerful spells in the format. You can now concievably play a tempo deck (for the most part) without Force of Will. Hard control? Most likely not.

Just my opinion...I think there is enough interest in the format that eventually, it will just 'run out' of old staples. More and more folks will still try to play it though, and that's where the New Generation idea comes from. I mean, how many times have you played MWS and seen someone trying to take their 'competitive' extended or standard deck and try it against a legacy deck (I've seen it more times than I can count)? They fail miserably, but not from lack of trying, that's for sure...

Good examples would be Zoo and MUD. Most of its pieces are less than 5 years old.

I wish there would make more MMesque type of cards. People who are trying to get into the format should be able to play even without the old staples.

[evanmartyr]

I think it's a logical fallacy that we're making here, saying that MMS makes Counterspell, Force of Will, etc better. There are only a few cards that are directly improved by the printing of MMS, and the one that most readily comes to mind is Standstill. You could even argue that Standstill is not made better, but the "strategy" of banking on Standstill to fuel early to mid game development got better, since your opponents became less likely to play a first turn threat.

What MMS does do, however, is increase the critical load of early interaction possible in all decks. The strategies (keyword) that best take advantage of this sort of early interaction are the ones that are most harmed by non-accelerated turn 1 plays, because other than Force of Will they had no convenient answer to a turn 1 threat outside of losing tempo by spending turns searching for removal.

The kinds of decks that want to counter everything you do early on and then do something impressive with the mana development their speed bumps bought them are the ones that benefited the most. Merfolk benefited from it because it allowed it to compete better with combo and other aggro decks that run a high number of 1cc "threats", and it dodged being affected by it too much because most of its threats are above 2cc.

So while it may appear that certain cards are getting "better", I don't think that's accurate; or if it is, it's not relevant. Decks that can't adjust smoothly to an opponent having a better chance of interacting with their 1cc spells will suffer, and decks that can will flourish. Those decks for whom Mental Misstep fills a huge gap in their strategy, shoring up one of their primary weaknesses, will benefit the most. That's the only conclusion I can draw from Orlando.

[Mr. Safety]

Good examples would be Zoo and MUD. Most of its pieces are less than 5 years old.

I wish there would make more MMesque type of cards. People who are trying to get into the format should be able to play even without the old staples.

Agreed...word up.

[Offler]

Good examples would be Zoo and MUD. Most of its pieces are less than 5 years old.

I wish there would make more MMesque type of cards. People who are trying to get into the format should be able to play even without the old staples.

Even other eternal formats have such problem. Its almost impossible to build up a deck (legacy, highlander, EDH, and surely no vintage) from cards printed in last 5 years.

New Phyrexia is bit different in some way. I have seen many goblins and elves following their tribal archetype, but it was rare to find good blue card following example of FOW. Phyrexian mana changed everything.

Losing life with Vapor snag and Psychic Barrier? Well, good old unsummon and Remove soul have grown bit more evil.

Torpor orb is something that affects 851 different cards by now and follows the legacy of Winter orb. Mental Misstep Affect up to 1434 different cards. yeah... something has changed this time and not only in Type 2...

I like that, unless such cards will not plague format. Some cards like Sensei's Divining Top is in most highlander decks even when it makes no direct combo or interaction. Misstep has this potential too (low basic cost, much lower alternate cost which can be considered as colorless).

[Star|Scream]

I think it's a logical fallacy that we're making here, saying that MMS makes Counterspell, Force of Will, etc better. There are only a few cards that are directly improved by the printing of MMS, and the one that most readily comes to mind is Standstill. You could even argue that Standstill is not made better, but the "strategy" of banking on Standstill to fuel early to mid game development got better, since your opponents became less likely to play a first turn threat.

What MMS does do, however, is increase the critical load of early interaction possible in all decks. The strategies (keyword) that best take advantage of this sort of early interaction are the ones that are most harmed by non-accelerated turn 1 plays, because other than Force of Will they had no convenient answer to a turn 1 threat outside of losing tempo by spending turns searching for removal.

The kinds of decks that want to counter everything you do early on and then do something impressive with the mana development their speed bumps bought them are the ones that benefited the most. Merfolk benefited from it because it allowed it to compete better with combo and other aggro decks that run a high number of 1cc "threats", and it dodged being affected by it too much because most of its threats are above 2cc.

So while it may appear that certain cards are getting "better", I don't think that's accurate; or if it is, it's not relevant. Decks that can't adjust smoothly to an opponent having a better chance of interacting with their 1cc spells will suffer, and decks that can will flourish. Those decks for whom Mental Misstep fills a huge gap in their strategy, shoring up one of their primary weaknesses, will benefit the most. That's the only conclusion I can draw from Orlando.

It most certainly does make FOW Better. Previously you had to fow a vial or a lackey. You started the game down 2 cards and 1 life to stop 1 card for 1 mana. That is a terrible rate of return in a game where cards and mana are everything. You didn't want to, but you had to do it or your whole strategy could go out the window. Now you don't have to. You can save it for later (which may or may not even be needed since you have daze after turn 1, spell pierce/snare, and then counterspell.) when you really absolutely have to counter something.

Can we at least agree that Mental Misstep makes other blue counterspells more useful while simultaneously making vial, stp, and other requisite 1 drops less useful?

Bear in mind this wouldn't be so bad if blue wasn't able to also provide a clock (folk) or have an $80 4 mana card draw, fateseal, win-condition to go along with it.

[Koby]

I think it's a logical fallacy that we're making here, saying that MMS makes Counterspell, Force of Will, etc better. There are only a few cards that are directly improved by the printing of MMS, and the one that most readily comes to mind is Standstill. You could even argue that Standstill is not made better, but the "strategy" of banking on Standstill to fuel early to mid game development got better, since your opponents became less likely to play a first turn threat.

What MMS does do, however, is increase the critical load of early interaction possible in all decks. The strategies (keyword) that best take advantage of this sort of early interaction are the ones that are most harmed by non-accelerated turn 1 plays, because other than Force of Will they had no convenient answer to a turn 1 threat outside of losing tempo by spending turns searching for removal.

The kinds of decks that want to counter everything you do early on and then do something impressive with the mana development their speed bumps bought them are the ones that benefited the most. Merfolk benefited from it because it allowed it to compete better with combo and other aggro decks that run a high number of 1cc "threats", and it dodged being affected by it too much because most of its threats are above 2cc.

So while it may appear that certain cards are getting "better", I don't think that's accurate; or if it is, it's not relevant. Decks that can't adjust smoothly to an opponent having a better chance of interacting with their 1cc spells will suffer, and decks that can will flourish. Those decks for whom Mental Misstep fills a huge gap in their strategy, shoring up one of their primary weaknesses, will benefit the most. That's the only conclusion I can draw from Orlando.

I disagree with your assessment regarding MM not effecting the efficacy of other counterspells. It is precisely because MM allows you to counters those 1 drops on the draw without the loss of card advantage that strengthens FOW to counter higher priority cards such as KoTR or Jace. Combining MM with other counterspells allows each to address a varied manacost of spells. An example of this can be seen with GerryT's Landstill. MM frees up Counterspell and FOW that would otherwise need attention from FOW on the first turn of play. It by correlation, makes Spell Snare stronger with the fear from casting 1 drops. In this respect it does make other counterspells more effective.

This could also be applied to decks that don't just counter every spell like Landstill or DrawGo. You mentioned Merfolk, and this also makes Merfolk's Daze and FoW more effective. I use MM alongside FoW and Spell Snare in Bant to essentially perform the same roles as the spell does in Merfolk, and Landstill - give my limited FoW more life by not gutting my hand of blue cards.

[Richard Cheese]

Forcing a T1 Dark Ritual is a tough call. Misstepping one is not.

[Burr]

Is mental misstep considered blue or colorless? MWS shows it as colorless

[Forbiddian]

It is blue.

[cheerios]

With mental misstep legal, is it safe to unban mystical tutor?

[ivanpei]

Do you really want to see reanimator with mystical and missteps? I would be terrified at the thought.

[kiblast]

Forcing a T1 Dark Ritual is a tough call. Misstepping one is not.

+1. Against combo, say ANT, you are always risking when Forcing a Ritual. Because you just have been 2x1'ed. Often I choose not to Force his 1st Ritual, and Force his second one/his second spell, so at least opponents has had his hand raped as ours. Sadly, 99% of the times, the first spell that comes out off a Ritual is Duress. Ding! You just lost the game.
With MM, we have the great advantage of countering his 1st turn Ritual without Hymn to touraching ourselves, and, even better, if we hold MM and Fow in hand, we can just let his first Ritual resolve, Misstep his Duress (or his preemptive Chant if he lead with Petal into Chant), let his second/third mana ramp spell (Petals, Rituals etc..) resolve and then Fow his Adn or Tutor.

A friend of mine, long time and pretty good combo player (Mystical Ant, Tes, Ant again) is trying Missteps even in Ant (in sb I think)...MM is just so good.

[Admiral_Arzar]

With mental misstep legal, is it safe to unban mystical tutor?

I think it is. But only time will tell - I think fast combo as a whole is going to be pushed into the shadows for a while. Also, while ReAnimator with Mystical and Misstep would be good, it would still lose to Misstep Merfolk.

[Mr.Dieth]

I think it is. But only time will tell - I think fast combo as a whole is going to be pushed into the shadows for a while. Also, while ReAnimator with Mystical and Misstep would be good, it would still lose to Misstep Merfolk.

Wrong! I am testing it at the moment .. and even without Mystical it's in favor of reanimator .. Reanimator got a big boost out of NP..

I really Really don't want them to unban mystical .. It's kind of balanced how it is .. maybe they should make aggro strategies better again ( goblins, zoo .. ) But after the dust settles I think even those decks will find ways of battling MM .. ( Chrome mox for goblins for example.. )

[GGoober]

Wrong! I am testing it at the moment .. and even without Mystical it's in favor of reanimator .. Reanimator got a big boost out of NP..

I really Really don't want them to unban mystical .. It's kind of balanced how it is .. maybe they should make aggro strategies better again ( goblins, zoo .. ) But after the dust settles I think even those decks will find ways of battling MM .. ( Chrome mox for goblins for example.. )

Uhm, which spells from NP? Jin Gitaxias? Aggro strategies in Legacy are already fairly strong, it's just a decision to pick the right aggro deck that doesn't lose or get hated out too much by the meta.

[Admiral_Arzar]

Uhm, which spells from NP? Jin Gitaxias? Aggro strategies in Legacy are already fairly strong, it's just a decision to pick the right aggro deck that doesn't lose or get hated out too much by the meta.

LOL, I'm not sure how I feel about that guy :P. No, MM is the only thing ReAnimator got from NP. This Dieth guy is forgetting that Mystical Tutor - powered ReAnimator was actually not favored against Merfolk at the time.

[Shawon]

Notwithstanding the Reanimator-Merfolk matchup, it's still too early to determine if Mystical Tutor is safe to unban, not to mention counting combo out of the meta.