All B/R update speculation.

[kiblast]

Aren't you the guy that thinks Legacy has lots of ways of getting a turn 1 Necro?

I thought that land, Ritual, is just a bit more common than Land, a combination of 3-4 cards.
And, FYI, I was referring to turn 1-2 (check posts above). Even Land, Petal go. can enable a turn 2 Necro.
But maybe in the magical world where you play Mtg, turn 1 land,triple ritual, Bargain and/or combinations of 3-4 cards involving white creatures (!), and Cabal Therapy(!) in non-Dredge combo decks (all in turn 1-2) are more common.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I thought that land, Ritual, is just a bit more common than Land, a combination of 3-4 cards.
And, FYI, I was referring to turn 1-2 (check posts above). Even Land, Petal go. can enable a turn 2 Necro.
But maybe in the magical world where you play Mtg, turn 1 land,triple ritual, Bargain and/or combinations of 3-4 cards involving white creatures (!), and Cabal Therapy(!) in non-Dredge combo decks (all in turn 1-2) are more common.

Rick already addressed this. There's lots of redundant ways to get a turn 2 Yawgmoth's Bargain with Academy Rector or Show and Tell. This is because it's a lot easier to generate one colored mana and 2 or 3 mana of any color than triple black.

[Jander78]

I thought that land, Ritual, is just a bit more common than Land, a combination of 3-4 cards.
And, FYI, I was referring to turn 1-2 (check posts above). Even Land, Petal go. can enable a turn 2 Necro.
But maybe in the magical world where you play Mtg, turn 1 land,triple ritual, Bargain and/or combinations of 3-4 cards involving white creatures (!), and Cabal Therapy(!) in non-Dredge combo decks (all in turn 1-2) are more common.

There's no debate that it's easier to get Necro into play on turn 1 / 2. Bargain is by far the better card drawing engine as it wins now compared to next turn. A turn 2 Necro is still not as good as a turn 3 Bargain, both of which are equally as easy to manage casting in those respective turns.

[menace13]

Right, I'm going to go back to Classical's being irrelevant then. People don't have Yawgmoth's Will in Legacy and apparently they don't even play Bargain.

It is, it's a small online niche format, but back then during Necro era the pool was close to legacy as were the decks being played. Bargain sees play in storm decks, but it was released like last month(UD as a set).

[Admiral_Arzar]

Somebody brought this up in the Mental Misstep thread - it's probably better discussed here. With that card permeating the meta and driving combo strategies underground, would a Mystical Tutor unban be warranted?

It was also mentioned that ReAnimator with MM + MT would be ridiculous. This is true to some degree, although it would probably still lose to MM-powered Merfolk and Team America.

My thought on the matter is that while MT-powered ANT was kind of ridiculous, combo decks most likely need the added consistency to have a shot in a meta dominated by blue aggro-control and control decks with 16+ counterspells. Not to mention that you can always just MM the Tutor, lol. I'm interested to see if the current meta degenerates into board control vs. aggro, if that is the case, this might be the right move on WOTC's part, I don't know. Anyways, discuss.

[Pastorofmuppets]

Rick already addressed this. There's lots of redundant ways to get a turn 2 Yawgmoth's Bargain with Academy Rector or Show and Tell. This is because it's a lot easier to generate one colored mana and 2 or 3 mana of any color than triple black.

We actually semi-proved this when we did the CYOS tournament last year. I played Necropotence Rock and having to adjust my manabase to facilitate Necro ended up with me going like 1-2 or something like that because I found myself getting manascrewed a lot.
Although I lose to unlucky draws with decks that tend to not get unlucky draws.
I've had to mull to 3 with Elves before because I drew 2 hands with no lands, one hand with all lands, and another with no lands.
I once ran only 2 Mutavaults in Merfolk. Somehow I'd still manage hands like
Wasteland-Mutavault-LoA-Sovereign-Cursecatcher-Daze-Wasteland
on a regular basis.
I think Wizards should make an effort to mitigate my bad luck.
EDIT: By the way, IBA; do you have Shawn's list from the CYOS tourney? I remember having some of the most intense games of magic in my life against that deck and I don't even remember what it was.

[lorddotm]

Why are we even entertaining the idea that Necro can come off of the list? It can't. And Wizard's will never take off Bargain, so don't worry about it.

Dragon can easily come off, same with about 15 other cards.

Earthcraft seems like an easy one, Recruiter, Mystical, Land Tax, Hermit Druid, I wouldn't mind Frantic being taken off, but that could be dangerous, and, Mind's Desire is the same. Windfall might also be able to be taken off, Legacy players unload their hands quickly these days.

[GGoober]

If Windfall becomes overly dominant, just play decks with LED. Vengevines.dec and Storm.dec will make Windfall look awkward :P

I think Windfall is quite fair these days. Its comparable card is Diminishing Returns, although being 1 mana less and no exiling 10 cards could be an easy argument that it's still a tad bit powerful compared to DR. However, something like Doomsday (castable off BBB from drit) or Show and Tell seems to be able to win games much better than cycling through a fresh hand that is dependent on an opponent's hand size.

[Gheizen64]

If Windfall becomes overly dominant, just play decks with LED. Vengevines.dec and Storm.dec will make Windfall look awkward :P

I think Windfall is quite fair these days. Its comparable card is Diminishing Returns, although being 1 mana less and no exiling 10 cards could be an easy argument that it's still a tad bit powerful compared to DR. However, something like Doomsday (castable off BBB from drit) or Show and Tell seems to be able to win games much better than cycling through a fresh hand that is dependent on an opponent's hand size.

Windfall deck can play LED as easily as the deck that supposedly "counter" it and benefit a lot from it. Also, i'm honestly sick of storm combo, we can unban other combo pieces like Dragon and Earthcraft first, so mb to open to more form of hate cards to be relevant. I'd even like to see bargain unbanned before it just because it isn't blue (and because i want to play Runeflare trap).

[GGoober]

Windfall deck can play LED as easily as the deck that supposedly "counter" it and benefit a lot from it. Also, i'm honestly sick of storm combo, we can unban other combo pieces like Dragon and Earthcraft first, so mb to open to more form of hate cards to be relevant. I'd even like to see bargain unbanned before it just because it isn't blue (and because i want to play Runeflare trap).

To be honest, I can't see Earthcraft being dominant in Legacy. The only deck that can play it is Elves, but a 2 mana investment to trigger a potential chain of combo on turn 2 is still fundamentally dependent on a secondary card: Glimpse of Nature. Earthcraft could be the Candelabra for Elves in Spiral Tide, but we already have Heritage Druid, and even then the problem with Elf combo has always been resolving Glimpse and chaining draws into a combo. The only benefit Elf combo has over something like Spanish Inquisition (similar style in chaining draws into a combo) is that Elves actually get some good aggro backup plan.

I hope that Earthcraft and Land Tax will come off. I don't see them warping any metagames at all, definitely not at the level of how Knight of the Reliquary, Noble Hierarch, MM and a whole ton of recently printed cards has had an effect on Legacy.

[Gheizen64]

To be honest, I can't see Earthcraft being dominant in Legacy. The only deck that can play it is Elves, but a 2 mana investment to trigger a potential chain of combo on turn 2 is still fundamentally dependent on a secondary card: Glimpse of Nature. Earthcraft could be the Candelabra for Elves in Spiral Tide, but we already have Heritage Druid, and even then the problem with Elf combo has always been resolving Glimpse and chaining draws into a combo. The only benefit Elf combo has over something like Spanish Inquisition (similar style in chaining draws into a combo) is that Elves actually get some good aggro backup plan.

I hope that Earthcraft and Land Tax will come off. I don't see them warping any metagames at all, definitely not at the level of how Knight of the Reliquary, Noble Hierarch, MM has had an effect on Legacy.

Y, i'm pretty sure Earthcraft wouldn't be T1, but at least it would be a different kind of a combo deck if it were.

[wcm8]

Earthcraft could potentially find its way into Enchantress, but the card still wouldn't be any more broken than combo options already available in Legacy.

[dahcmai]

I just really don't want to see Squirrel Craft again. It was a pain in the ass the first time around in Vintage. It was a terrible deck, but it really stifled your deck building since you had to keep it in mind that someone could make a million stupid squirrels on turn 2 if you weren't ready for it.



Land Tax, i am convinced they just are laughing it up over that one.

[Gheizen64]

I just really don't want to see Squirrel Craft again. It was a pain in the ass the first time around in Vintage. It was a terrible deck, but it really stifled your deck building since you had to keep it in mind that someone could make a million stupid squirrels on turn 2 if you weren't ready for it.

And why would it be different from elves combo, TES, AnT, Belcher or something? The combo is countered by so many things (revoker, needle, enchantment destruction, discard, counters, flying creatures, caltrops, Deed, etc...) compared to storm it isn't really constricting at all. This isn't counting the fact enlightned tutor is also countered by i-run-4-in-every-deck MM.

[(nameless one)]

The MM being the next best thing in Legacy, would it be safe to allow Land Tax?

I have this Parfait deck sleeved up and always ready to be deployed in case WotC changes their mind.

[Gheizen64]

The MM being the next best thing in Legacy, would it be safe to allow Land Tax?

I have this Parfait deck sleeved up and always ready to be deployed in case WotC changes their mind.

Tax would be fine even in standard probably, the thing must be an inside joke of WotC.

[(nameless one)]

Tax would be fine even in standard probably, the thing must be an inside joke of WotC.

It wouldn't be fine in Standard.

Do you really want to see more Caw-whatever decks in Standard?

[Gheizen64]

It wouldn't be fine in Standard.

Do you really want to see more Caw-whatever decks in Standard?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperbole

[Amon Amarth]

Also, do people imagine Vial and Food Chain are going in the same Goblins list with Recruiter unbanned, and if so, what does the rest of the deck look like? I mean the old FCG ran ESGs and Ancient Tomb, but that was before Vial.

I get the feeling Vial wouldn't be necessary. I'm pretty sure Recruiter > 4 Ringleader (or something similar) is more or less unbeatable by control.

[(nameless one)]

I get the feeling Vial wouldn't be necessary. I'm pretty sure Recruiter > 4 Ringleader (or something similar) is more or less unbeatable by control.

Or you can do it like the old Gob-vantage deck lists, which are closer to Sligh Goblin.