[Deck] Dredge

[chags]

Is there any reason the list from BoM is running Hypnotist? What match ups is it actually good against? It seems like it might be a little slow for combo and perform the same role as Iona or FKZ.

It is actually pretty disgusting against combo once it goes online as long as you had at least one bridge in the gy. Especially when you consider you have hopefully cabal therapied them at least once prior to this.

[Zirath]

It is actually pretty disgusting against combo once it goes online as long as you had at least one bridge in the gy. Especially when you consider you have hopefully cabal therapied them at least once prior to this.

I mean besides combo. I see he boarded it against Lands but I am having trouble figuring if that is as useful as Terrastodon, Angel or Primus.

[Sunsatzu]

i have played the following in 2 tourneys, all against blue decks as it happens, and my only losses were to ANT and myself punting 2 matches vs Team America and ol'fashioned Threshold

4 Putrid Imp
4 Narcomoeba
2 Ichorid
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
2 Golgari Thug
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
1 Sphinx of Lost Truths

4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Careful Study
4 Breakthrough
3 Deep Analysis
3 Dread Return

4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Cephalid Coliseum

1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Angel of Despair
1 Elesh-Norn, Grand Cenobite
2 Ichorid
1 Nature's Claim
2 Ray of Revelation
3 Ancient Grudge
4 Chain of Vapor

basic siding vs blue decks, although diff from MU to MU is the following

-2 Breakthrough
-1 DA
-1 DR
-1 F-KZ
-1 SofLT

+2 Ichorid
+3 AG or +2 RofR & +1 AofD/NC (pending hate)
+1 E-N,GC or I,SofE

recently, a couple guys have been SB'ing Peacekeeper, so ive changed the following

MD
-1 DA
+1 AofD

SB
-1 AofD
+1 Darkblast

with LED,in the first game, im always on the draw, able to DDD vs Blue and win turn 1-2 vs non-FOW/MM and combo decks. obviously if you know your opponent is combo go first, and if they run MD Relic for atarget of Trinket Mage, just Therapy the Mage and go from there, Trinket mage decks dont pose a clock anyways. gl yall.

[chags]

I mean besides combo. I see he boarded it against Lands but I am having trouble figuring if that is as useful as Terrastodon, Angel or Primus.

I think it pretty much is only there for combo, at least that is primarily why it is there...I think its fine being in the sb for that reason alone.

[Zirath]

I think it pretty much is only there for combo, at least that is primarily why it is there...I think its fine being in the sb for that reason alone.

Alright, I haven't seen a Hypnotist in many a moon so I was just making sure.

[joemauer]

Not sure but I think he may have used Hyponist against Lands because Cabal Therapy doesn't hit lands. Lands players can sandbag a tabernacle and play it after u DR a realm razor. Also, if the lands player has mox diamond in play, random land in hand, and life from the loam in gy then realm razor will only slow him down. Hyponist + Realm Razor will shut him down. That's my guess.

[Anusien]

It's probably in there because Dredge players are notorious for jamming their deck full of the wrong singletons.

[HokusSchmokus]

No, it's there because it makes combo actually a winnable matchup. Superb card, I don't know why everybody hates it Oo

[daugarten]

Hi all, been reading the thread for a little while and decided to put together a basic LED-less version of Dredge (almost near completion). I'm very new to Dredge so take my words for what they're worth, and I apologize beforehand if I seem ignorant/naive.

First question is how to mulligan with this deck. In my tests I've almost never mulliganed and it seems to always play out well. As long as I have a dredger or a breakthrough it seems to play out very nicely. Is this the consensus?

Second question: What advantage does LED give over Tireless Tribe? I always seem to be able to cast it when it's in my opening hand, and it allows more flexibility than LED. And in a list that doesn't run Eternal Witness the extra mana that LED gives is next to worthless. The biggest drawback that I see is that TT can be MM'd, LED cannot. Nevertheless, can it really be worth $200 for a play set of LED rather than $1 for Tireless Tribes?

Lastly, I read reports about players slow-dredging to avoid GY hate from taking them out. How is that accomplished? If you're not expecting GY hate (via Cabal Therapy) in the next turn or two, is it wise to go balls out and dredge like no other?

EDIT: What's DDD?

[GoldenCid]

Second question: What advantage does LED give over Tireless Tribe? I always seem to be able to cast it when it's in my opening hand, and it allows more flexibility than LED. And in a list that doesn't run Eternal Witness the extra mana that LED gives is next to worthless. The biggest drawback that I see is that TT can be MM'd, LED cannot. Nevertheless, can it really be worth $200 for a play set of LED rather than $1 for Tireless Tribes?

I'm glad of seeing this question `cause i was a long time until somebody brought led to the discussion. LED does not need rainbow land to be casted and, as you say, can't be MM´d but pierced if you wish. Tribe is great but it's a very very different card than led. Indeed they have different functions. TT provides you a body that allows to discard dredgers and block almost whatever without loosing our bridges. But LED aloows you to play an easy, fast and effective combo just with one coliseum or a deep analysis, provides you at worst discard stuff and gives you 3 mana! LED also, allows you to play around Tsphere and pay prison cost if needed, function great with flashback costs. All in all, led can win a tight game from nothing.

[Felidae]

First off DDD stands for draw, discard, dredge (so basicly if you are on the draw you just play nothing on turn one and simply discard a dredger). This play is great in game 1 against decks like Tempo Thresh, where we can easily win via slowdredge.
Also note that this method doesn't imply to never cast a spell from your hand, it just implies that you don't cast anything on turn one (so lets say you keep a hand with land, Gravetroll, Study and other stuff. After discarding the troll and dredging him in your next turn you will eventually find another dredger, so that you can now go for the Study and don't have to worry if it gets countert or not).

As for the mulligan it allways depends on the matchup and if it is pre or post sideboard.
In game one you should be aware that usually your opponent wont have any graveyard hate, so whatever hits the yard will remain there. This also means that you need a way to place the keycards in your hand into your graveyard. So anything that lets you discard your hand is fine, at least as long as a dredger is involved.

As for the game postboard we usually have to face the hate from our opponents, so we should keep a hand that is capable to deal with at least 1 Crypt / Relic, etc. This means that we can either destroy the Crypt via Grudge, or force them to break it while holding another drawspell and/ or a discard outled to refill the yard. Keep in mind that they can also hide there hate with Brainstorm or Top, so if you decided to go all in with Breakthrough or Colluseum make sure to get enough token and maybe a large Troll to survive the upcomming outblow.

The LED version is at least one turn faster then the non-Led version and can actually kill on turn 2 (with stuff like Land, LED, Breakthrough, saccing LED in response and go nuts from here). However we don't really need to win on turn 2, as turn 3/4 are fine as well.
If you look a couple of pages back to Parches sideboarding plans you will notice that both LED and Deep Analysis are gong to be sided out a lot, to make room for Tribe and extra lands, because the deck needs to be more constant in game 2.

[GoldenCid]

Not only lets us with in 2 turns but win a tight game in a turn. ;)

[Gui]

Here's a question to everyone: Do you think Dredge benefits from going "draw" instead of "play" @ game 1? Would you do that?

[Nidd]

Here's a question to everyone: Do you think Dredge benefits from going "draw" instead of "play" @ game 1? Would you do that?

I've done that a lot at the Legacy side event of GP Prague and it went quite well. The most important thing to do if you want to play around Misstep by putting yourself on the draw G1 is that you have to scout the tournament and try to remember everyone who could pack Misstep.

The event has also shown to me that I don't need to dredge to win a game, but that's a different story...

LED versions have an advantage over LED-Less versions now (save for speed): LED can't be countered by Misstep. If I would've played LED Dredge, it might've been an option to play first, but drawing felt quite good as well.

[Sims]

I have been choosing to draw almost constantly in my playtesting lately. It's gotten to the point that in match testing, my opponents in game 2 or 3 have chosen to draw to keep me from being able to DDD at least once. Just do your scouting when possible and be wary of rogue deckbuildersthat are packing Surgical Extractions in their board. It might not hurt a lot, but with correct timing, it can severely swing the game in their favor unless they give you too much time to recover.

I haven't found misstep itself to be too terrible, but that might just be me getting good hands. I've been able to keep hands that have 2 discard outlets and just force one through. If they have 2 or 1 and a FoW... such is life, just keep throwing spells at them until the counter wall breaks. I've been casting a lot more turn 1 blind therapies against unknown opponents online as well, usually naming misstep or FoW, as i've found especially online in testing that when you cast turn 1 therapy on the play, they tend to snap counter it with whatevers in their hand.

I've done some changes to my list and been rather unconventional lately. I had never had a problem with standard LED-less dredge but my metagame locally has been turning more combo oriented, and as I really don't feel the LEDs are worth it, I cut the darkblast, 1 tarnished (down to 14 lands), and 1 careful study (down to 3) to fit in the 3rd DR, FKZ, and Sphinx pacakge. So far it's been working good and I haven't noticed much of a difference with only 14 lands as opposed to 15, but that again might change. I'm not sure. I did manage to cram the 4th Ichorid into my sideboard, as I feel that's going to be a very big deal in the coming months for grinding out blue matches.

[1maarten1]

Allright, I played dredge at a local tournament yesterday. Went 2-2-1, but was pretty satisfied because I could have made top 4, but due to being very tired etc I did not notice my Merfolk opponent cheating/ I had a couple of bad dredges @ important moments :( (but well, that happens to all of us.)

I used the exact BoM list.

Round 1 against Staxx (yey! Round 1 against one of the baddest MU's the deck has.)
game 1: I keep him off ghostly prison with therapy and the zombies quickly take it home.
game 2: I am short 2 black dudes for ichorid, and I lose to tabernacle/chalice @ 1&2 en Trini ^^
game 3: We're out of time so its a draw
@round 2 I hear the staxx player got a game loss because his MD was 58 cards. Dang I would have liked a free win vs staxx :P

Round 2 against The Gate with red
game 1: Therapy keeps him off gatekeeper and stalker and I take it with ease.
game 2: A well timed extirpate on ichorid and I missplay by blocking his Bitterblossom tokens with Moeba's so that I cant Dread return.
game 3: I missplay by not going cabal on extirpate first, so I lose bridges. Still win it with easy after raping his hand of 2 stalkers and 2 firespout :).

Round 3 against Merfolk
game 1: He wins the roll, I DDD and then proceed to go insane on cephalid coliseum.
game 2: He is just too fast with lords when I dredge 30 cards, which didnt include any bridges or ichorids.
game 3: I chose to draw, but then have to mull 6 which sucks. So off to a slow start, I start dredging but then he does the following: He uses Reejerey's ability to untap vial with creatures he vialed in (which is impossible ofcourse) he drops 5/6 lords in 1 turn and beats me for 14 damage with 2 creatures. If I would have noticed this I would have 2 more turns to dredge ichorids/bridges/moebas which would have changed the game around.

Round 4 against Thopter Budget (no fow/fetch/duals etc.)
game 1: Tarnished citadel deals 15 damage to me this game, and I almost get back into the game while on 1 life mainly thanks to darkblast, but Im 1 black creature short for Ichorid.
Game 2: Im way too fast with zombies and GGT
Game 3: Same as g2

Round 5 against mono R Painter (if I win this I still make top4)
game 1: Darkblast and Cabal therapy completely rapes him.
game 2: I lose 15 life to citadel again, and then proceed to dredge nothing but shit. He hardcasts Simian Spirit Guide and kills me. Sigh.
game 3: Him: t1 crypt and relic, I manage to still keep him of the combo and start fighting his hate, but he is just a little quicker and kills me with the combo thanks to a welder that I cant darkblast because it got removed :(!

Anyway, the maindeck performed as usual, great. Although tarnished citadel hurt me sometimes, tho it wasnt even that relevent if my dredges would have been a little better.

Darkblast was MVP all day, I will cut 1 ray for a second copy in the SB (going up to 3 in my 75). Iona was very underwhelming all day, against mono colored aggro strategy's Elesh is way better. (only not against burn ofc).

So I was thinking of the following changes all in the sb:
-1 ray of revelation
+ 1 darkblast
-1 iona
+ 1 blightsteel colossus (against painter strategy's and sometimes even high tide)
-1 realm razor (shines vs lands ofc, but worse than terastodon in other control matches)
+ 1 terastodon (better overall card against decks like staxx/chantress/lands)

I will test the FKZ/Sphinx plan MD, FKZ + Sadistic seems just as decent as Iona + Sadistic vs storm combo.

Anyway, please let me know how you think about the changes.

~Maarten

[daugarten]

I guess this is the place to ask.

So after much lurking and just recently building my first Legacy deck, I'm heading to a tournament later in June! I built a budget LED-less Dredge, and I've got just a handful of questions on how to play a few cards optimally.

1) Do players find themselves casting Breakthrough more often turn 1 or 2, with 1 mana or 2 mana? I've heard that Breakthrough first turn is great to fill the GY, but I've been using it mostly later on to dredge huge amounts and waiting to get a second land is useful (usually for Cephalid Coliseum).

2) In a good number of my games during testing I've reached 2 land drops, and I'm wondering if throwing out a Careful Study for a Deep Analysis would be worth it. Starting with a Study is great, but after that it's useless since I never draw. And I don't always get a Cephalid Coliseum down, so drawing (or large dredges) later in the game isn't as common as I'd like it to be. However, I'd be losing that possible turn 1-2 play more often... which seems more important. I've considering dropping the 3rd Ichorid to make room for DA...

3) I'm playing FKZ as my only DR target MD (dropping to 14 lands). Not knowing the meta, I'm wondering if that is the best option (speed). Would another creature be ideal for my Legacy debut (Iona, Elesh Norn, or possibly no DR target)? Also, is Eternal Witness worth finding room for without LED? I'm leaning towards no...

[Digital Devil]

I'm having issues with GW Maverick, lately (facing two different players and losing against both of them, 1st swiss round and top8 of the same event). That deck seems to have an answer to just about anything we do. Mother of Runes to block GGT, Jitte to kill Ichorid/Narcomoeba, Swords to Plowshares as an answer to PImp/Tribe, Natural Order to nuke Bridges, Karakas for Iona, and a post-board hate in form of Wheel of Sun and Moon, Tormod's Crypt and Bojuka Bog, which forces us to side in 413879610 cards or take mulligans to find Nature's Claim/Chain of Vapor. I'd personally bring in 3x Darkblast, 2x Ancient Grudge and 2x Ray of Revelation - with a sb plan like that I never lost to Maverick before, but I think I was quite lucky. Any suggestions for a different sb plan?

I've heard that Breakthrough first turn is great

The only time I played Breakthrough first turn was like 2 months ago, and I had mulled down to 3.

[2nd_lawl]

Wheel of Sun and Moon, Tormod's Crypt and Bojuka Bog

Leyline of sanctity stops all of these. PS I top32'd the GP and LED was critical.

[1maarten1]

Leyline of sanctity stops all of these. PS I top32'd the GP and LED was critical.

I would love a list + report sir :)