[Deck] Deadguy Ale (B/w Confidant)

[bokwinkle]

I haven't been here in a while, but I figured I'd drop in for a brief conversation starter. I've been fishing something that is black/white aggro with bob's...by definition it is NOT deadguy, but it has many of the same elements. Generally I think that anyone that is running an 8-card mystic package should be considering Enlightened tutor as well, it's ability to fish out scullers, vials, or a multitude of sideboard cards make the card incredibly valuable.

I'd like people to fish it out and let me know what they think:

Artifacts:
4 x Vault Skirge
4 x AEther Vial
3 x Bonesplitter
3 x Mox Opal
2 x Tidehollow Sculler
1 x Phyrexian Revoker
1 x Umezawa's Jitte
1 x Sword of Fire and Ice
1 x Ethersworn Canonist

Black:
4 x Dark Confidant
2 x Night's Whisper

White:
4 x Puresteel Paladin
4 x Swords to Plowshares
3 x Kor Duelist
3 x Stoneforge Mystic
2 x Enlightened Tutor

Land:
4 x Ancient Den
4 x Marsh Flats
4 x Scrubland
3 x Plains
1 x Swamp
1 x Vault of Whispers
1 x Arid Mesa

Sideboard:
1 x Ensnaring Bridge
1 x Pithing Needle
1 x Sword of Body and Mind
1 x Enlightened Tutor
1 x Humility
1 x Runed Halo
2 x Engineered Plague
3 x Perish
4 x Seal of Cleansing

I wanted to build something a bit more aggro, but it's not something I would typically build or reach for to play in a tourney with...plus, for being aggro, the deck is a little slow.

Generally I found that I've hated chrome mox in testing of my traditional Deadguy list, and I wanted to use accelleration in a different way...and mox opal seems to be great with Vial and Vault Skirge - sometimes this deck gets off to really explosive starts....sometimes it also just sits there too. There are probably too many Bonesplitters and not enough SoFI's really, but that's one of the many issues with this build...again I'm looking for input.

[Einherjer]

Sounds terrible. There's a reason everyone plays Duals. It's because mana consistency is better than losing some land Wastelands. It also lets you play good spells, like Hymn to Tourach and Gatekeeper.

Oh damnit, didnt think ill meet people like you again but ok.... Have ever thought about that I might have my reasons aswell? That I tested my deck and that I dont have any problems with duals? Youre one of this people - just saying what every1 else says aswell. Its just unbelieveabe. If you would take a look up, i neither play hymn nor gatekeeper nor did I say my Manabase as inaccurate.

Unbelieveable....


Back to topic: Is Mirran Crusader already established in DGA? And i rarely see SoLaS any more, more like SoFaI and SoFaF - is this just metabased - or is SoLaS outdated?

Godspeed


edit: I dont have much time but theres one thing Id change immediatly - 4 SFM? :P (to the deck one over me)

[bokwinkle]

Crusader is generally not established in DGA because we are black based (not white) and it can create issues with the mana base. Some of the more white-based lists (4 SFM, etc) are now making use of him, (since they can) as opposed to Vampire Nighthawk and are forgoing cards like hymn to tourach in an effort to take advantage of the strong white cards...personally I think the strength of this deck is in Black (not white) and trying to shift focus to white is a mistake, but I'm watching it pretty closely.

SoLaS was generally never good enough, although I was wondering if it would get better once Misstep came knocking at the door to swords to plowshares and people started playing more black removal (in the 2 cmc spot). Swords and path don't leave guys in the grave to bring back, and the life gain was minimal in the grand scheme. SoFI is simply the best one as it provides the fastest clock (generally) AND card advantage, and the best alternative to Jitte, since Jitte is generally pretty slow to get going, whereas SoFI comes out of the gate bashing for an extra +4. IMHO SoFI and Jitte are the only 2 equipment that are mandatory - everything else can be based on preferance and Meta, but they all have their own merits, and are generally all quite good.

-------

Basics mana base...It has it's upsides, but it's reliant on meta (it's great if you face lots of recurring wastelands, back to basics, blood moon, etc). Personally I think it limits card choices too much. I like my Gatekeepers too much not to play them. I think at the very least that you'd run 6-8 fetches to compensate for the color fixing, but depending on the list it may or may not be needed. If I were going to do something like this it typically wouldn't be in these colors...black and white cards typically have pretty heavy color requirements. However, with SFM's rise in popularity and the availablity of Vial it is definately becoming more doable. Bottom line, if it's working, don't fix it.

Ulitimately though, I don't really understand what you gain, because with the proper number of fetches, 4-8 basics, and some sort of accelleration (vial, ritual, or moxen) I can get around most non-basic hosing decks, so it doesn't really gain enough to warrant the sacrifices IMHO.

[Leto]

well, obviously, you wanted opinions to your manabase, and CorpT gave you his. I agree with him, why should I play under my options? You have no double color costs in your decklist, so maybe its okay, but its not ideal. I wouldn't want to play without my Scrublands, they make the deck way better.

[MoonDark]

I've been testing Cabal Therapy and 4x Bitter Blossom + 4x Chrome Mox, looks interesting, still need to fix some stuff.

Will post a list later today

[Einherjer]

Leto, tell me something....
I can play ALL cards i want to play.
I dont run out of Mana in any way.
I slow the enemy down a bit while not slowing me down that much.
Oponents can hardly disturb my manabase.

Tell me, why would I change it?

[Gui]

Leto, tell me something....
I can play ALL cards i want to play.
I dont run out of Mana in any way.
I slow the enemy down a bit while not slowing me down that much.
Oponents can hardly disturb my manabase.

Tell me, why would I change it?

Funny fact, you asked for help and now that everyone tells you something, you dislike the help. If you didn't need the opinions, why asking?

[Einherjer]

Sorry if it sounded like this - had a bad day today.
*official excuse*

[Richard Cheese]

@Bok: check out the list I posted here: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...402#post556402

I was actually thinking about trying to work black into it for Bob/Sculler. I would def. recommend Cranial Plating over Bonesplitter though, esp. since you'll have access to black mana. Also Batterskull. I'm not much for bandwagoning, but with an active Puresteel, it's really ridiculous. Maybe this thread isn't the place to discuss that archetype, but it's been so fun/powerful in testing that I think it definitely warrants some discussion.

[bfeingersh]

Crusader messes with the mana base, but no more than Serra Avenger would (although if you're playing Avenger you're probably packing Vials). The benefits of landing a Crusader far outweigh the cost of making your mana funky. If you stick him against Rock, TA, Fish, Mirror, or anything that doesn't have more removal for him than a set of Swords to Plowshares, you're probably winning. I would advise playing Chrome Mox with him.

And just to throw my list in for discussion, this is what I've been playing (6-3 at Providence, and 3-1 record or better the last few weeks at local tournaments):

4 Dark Confidant
2 Mirran Crusader
3 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Gatekeeper of Malakir

3 Chrome Mox
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull

4 Thoughtseize
2 Cabal Therapy
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Vindicate

4 Swords to Plowshares

2 Bitterblossom

3 Verdant Catacombs
4 Marsh Flats
4 Scrubland
1 Fetid Heath
4 Wasteland
1 Karakas
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Plains
1 Swamp

SB changes frequently:
3 Perish
2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Relic of Progenitus
2 Extirpate
1 Bitterblossom
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

Our metagame consists of:

2-3 NO Bant/RUG
2-3 Merfolk
3-4 Junk, Deadguy Ale, Team Italia
1 Grixis Control
1 White Stax
1 Zoo

Other decks that show up include Dredge, ANT, Lands, Quinn, Dragon Stompy, various Landstills, Blue Stax, Spanish Inquisition, Aggro Loam. Our tournaments allow proxies for the sake of proper testing, so the decks that have $200+ cards in them will be playing them (Moat in Quinn, Tabernacle in lands/Stax, etc).

I probably have too much graveyard and combo hate in my board, but I'd rather have it and not need it than need it and not have it. Last night I played the guy who usually brings white stax and he was on SI which through me for a loop.

[Richard Cheese]

At CMC3 with WW, I just don't think Crusader is worth it unless you're trying to build around him. Yes, he swings past the format's most played creatures, and double strike is awesome, but he's too much of a mana investment for something that's so easy to remove. StP, PtE, and burn all hit him (even Lavamancer and SoFi), gets offed by only 2 Jitte counters, and he gets bounced by...anything. He also can't block or race Tombstalker, and dies to a 2/3. In predominantly black lists, I would almost rather have Phyrexian Crusader instead, were it not for the dis-synergy with poison counters/regular damage.

That being said, with equipment he is completely off the hook, but that's a lot of turns/mana invested in one creature whether you cheated everything in through Vial/SFM or not.

[bfeingersh]

At CMC3 with WW, I just don't think Crusader is worth it unless you're trying to build around him. Yes, he swings past the format's most played creatures, and double strike is awesome, but he's too much of a mana investment for something that's so easy to remove. StP, PtE, and burn all hit him (even Lavamancer and SoFi), gets offed by only 2 Jitte counters, and he gets bounced by...anything. He also can't block or race Tombstalker, and dies to a 2/3. In predominantly black lists, I would almost rather have Phyrexian Crusader instead, were it not for the dis-synergy with poison counters/regular damage.

That being said, with equipment he is completely off the hook, but that's a lot of turns/mana invested in one creature whether you cheated everything in through Vial/SFM or not.

He's like a Batterskull. When he's good, he's good. When he's bad, he probably gets boarded out. Which is pretty much in the matchups where what you listed will happen. I don't think there's really anything that can hit as hard but not fall victim to those things while not causing card disadvantage (Ritual > Obliterator).

[Rizso]

At CMC3 with WW, I just don't think Crusader is worth it unless you're trying to build around him. Yes, he swings past the format's most played creatures, and double strike is awesome, but he's too much of a mana investment for something that's so easy to remove. StP, PtE, and burn all hit him (even Lavamancer and SoFi), gets offed by only 2 Jitte counters, and he gets bounced by...anything. He also can't block or race Tombstalker, and dies to a 2/3. In predominantly black lists, I would almost rather have Phyrexian Crusader instead, were it not for the dis-synergy with poison counters/regular damage.

That being said, with equipment he is completely off the hook, but that's a lot of turns/mana invested in one creature whether you cheated everything in through Vial/SFM or not.

Fetid Heath does fix this. You can fetch swamp swamp and play heath and still able to play the Crusader.

[Richard Cheese]

He's like a Batterskull. When he's good, he's good. When he's bad, he probably gets boarded out. Which is pretty much in the matchups where what you listed will happen. I don't think there's really anything that can hit as hard but not fall victim to those things while not causing card disadvantage (Ritual > Obliterator).

Well, except that even equipped (except SoFI), Phyrexian crusader applies the exact same clock on his own, but is much harder to get rid of. Also think about how many decks run either StP, bounce, or burn....damn near all of them. I don't know what match Mirran is really going to be safe in, but the same could be said for Bob and Lavamancer, but they both still see play, albeit at lower/more splashable costs.

[MoonDark]

Crusader messes with the mana base, but no more than Serra Avenger would (although if you're playing Avenger you're probably packing Vials). The benefits of landing a Crusader far outweigh the cost of making your mana funky. If you stick him against Rock, TA, Fish, Mirror, or anything that doesn't have more removal for him than a set of Swords to Plowshares, you're probably winning. I would advise playing Chrome Mox with him.

And just to throw my list in for discussion, this is what I've been playing (6-3 at Providence, and 3-1 record or better the last few weeks at local tournaments):

4 Dark Confidant
2 Mirran Crusader
3 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Gatekeeper of Malakir

3 Chrome Mox
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull

4 Thoughtseize
2 Cabal Therapy
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Vindicate

4 Swords to Plowshares

2 Bitterblossom

3 Verdant Catacombs
4 Marsh Flats
4 Scrubland
1 Fetid Heath
4 Wasteland
1 Karakas
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Plains
1 Swamp

SB changes frequently:
3 Perish
2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Relic of Progenitus
2 Extirpate
1 Bitterblossom
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

Our metagame consists of:

2-3 NO Bant/RUG
2-3 Merfolk
3-4 Junk, Deadguy Ale, Team Italia
1 Grixis Control
1 White Stax
1 Zoo

Other decks that show up include Dredge, ANT, Lands, Quinn, Dragon Stompy, various Landstills, Blue Stax, Spanish Inquisition, Aggro Loam. Our tournaments allow proxies for the sake of proper testing, so the decks that have $200+ cards in them will be playing them (Moat in Quinn, Tabernacle in lands/Stax, etc).

I probably have too much graveyard and combo hate in my board, but I'd rather have it and not need it than need it and not have it. Last night I played the guy who usually brings white stax and he was on SI which through me for a loop.

Hey there, interesting take. I don't like your manabase a lot, seems quite vulnerable to wasteland.

What do you really think of vindicate according to your testing ? ( impressions ? is it too slow ? etc )

[bfeingersh]

Kills everything dead, easy to cast off Fetid Heath, imprints on Chrome Mox like a champ... it's the swiss army knife of the deck. Definite 4-of especially if you're running Moxen.

The manabase could probably use another basic or two, but what else would you suggest?

[Rizso]

Kills everything dead, easy to cast off Fetid Heath, imprints on Chrome Mox like a champ... it's the swiss army knife of the deck. Definite 4-of especially if you're running Moxen.

The manabase could probably use another basic or two, but what else would you suggest?

I would replace the karakas with basic :P cant tutor after it in matchups where its good anyway.

[MoonDark]

Kills everything dead, easy to cast off Fetid Heath, imprints on Chrome Mox like a champ... it's the swiss army knife of the deck. Definite 4-of especially if you're running Moxen.

The manabase could probably use another basic or two, but what else would you suggest?

I run 19 land + 4 Chrome Mox

8 fetch
4 scrubland
4 wasteland
2 swamp
1 heath

21 Black Cards to support mox (1st turn hymn)
10 White Cards
----
31 Colored Cards has been fine in my testing

[Tim the Enchanter]

Vindicate is always good and 4 is probably the right number.

I haven't tested Chrome Mox myself, but 2 maybe 3 seems like it would be good. I don't really like that I have to chuck business to it though.

I like the more W based builds, as evidenced by the lists I've been playing. The cards in black that I really are only Dark Confidant and Bitterblossom anyway. Yes Seize/Hymn/Inquisition are good, but the only one that becomes more difficult to cast is Hymn, which I didn't play at the invitational for a couple of reasons. #1 is the cost and #2 is that I expected a TON of Misdirection/Divert and losing an extra 2 at random always sucks.

Gatekeeper is cool but there are so many creatures running around right now that I'd much rather have targeted removal and actually get rid of the creature I want dead. It competes with Vindicate in the 3 cost removal slot and like I just said, Vindicate is the nuts. The BBB cost also hampers your chances of dropping it on T3, which is still likely to not kill the creature you want anyway especially on the draw.

SFM should be a 4 of and multiple Bitterblossoms should be in as well.

Mirran Crusader is Rockem Sockem Robots when he lives and is equipped. Until then I'd rather just have Serra Avenger. She doesn't die as easy, can swing and block, and has evasion on top of costing one less.

Seriously guys, play the W based build.

PS: Phyrexian Revoker is still the nuts, especially against other SFM decks and Jace/Top.

Edit: Karakas sucks. If you must play a utility land play Volrath's Stronghold.

All basics manabases blow. There's absolutely no reason not to play 4 Scrublands. You can still play 7-8 basics and 6 Fetches to get the mana you need and be Wasteland proof 90% of the time while having the mana cast what you 98% of the time.

[MoonDark]

Could you post your list ? :)