nice decklist, Thanks.
@SHAABOGS
Nice job with the deck. I haven't tested bloodghast dredge for awhile, so I have a couple questions. How did you lose to maverick 0-2? I have found it to be a very good MU for dredge, is it tougher with bloodghast dredge or just some bad luck? Have you tried sun Titan, might be good in your list?
Leyline of the Void, I never liked it in dredge, did you like it?
Maverick isn't great MU since they pack Mental Missteps MD and Scavenging Ooze.. StP/KotRs/wastelands also Hurts. After SB its much harder E.Tutor Package with Dueling Grounds and other utilities attacks from many directions, Chain of Vapor sometimes isn't enough. I found that Firestorms works well in early game killing mana dorks, and also discarding without fear of counters..
I have been playing LED dredge lately. It kinda rapes maverick. Guess I was a little spoiled. Decks without counter magic and/or Leyline of the Void roll over to LED. Forgot all the hate it packs.
Game one, I lost the die roll and kept a hand with no dredgers but a couple of Careful Studies and lands, Breakthrough and a Tireless Tribe. I started to dig for dredgers with Careful Study but by the time I got my engine going he already had a Progenitus in play. I still had a chance to race against the hydra god so I raised a lethal undead army. Unfortunately, he played Mother of Runes and Noble Hierarch so that he could stop my quest for brains and survive while Progenitus finished me off.Originally Posted by joemauer
Game 2, my opponent went down to five cards, but two of those cards were Surgical Extraction. I had a Putrid Imp and a Stinkweed Imp in my opening hand so I played the outlet and passed the turn. My opponent played a land and passed the turn back. I discarded my dredger on my upkeep only to be exiled by Surgical Extraction. I drew a card and found a Golgari Thug. It was déjà vu on my next upkeep as he surgically extracted my dredger and it took me a while before I drew my last dredger, Golgari Grave Troll. Unfortunately, he already had a commanding board position with Knight of the Reliquary and friends. He finished me off by fetching a Bojuka Bog on my end step and killing me with those guys.
I tried Sun Titan in the past and had success with him but I wanted to test Feldman's idea on not having dedicated DR targets in the main. Right now, I put him back as my only non Troll target. -1 Golgari Thug +1 Sun Titan
Never used it in the tournament since I wasn't paired against the mirror or reanimator. LoTV was a meta call coz Dredge is one of the most cheapest competitive decks out there. I did see a lot of Dredge/Reanimator decks in the tournament tables that day. I guess I just got lucky.
So i tried out a Sun Titan list at an 84 person side event at my Nationals. I went 5-2 and ended up in tenth place. I mulled to 4 in 3 game 1's and pulled out only 1 of those games. You really don't want to be throwing away game 1's with this deck so that hampered my performance.
Here is the list. I hadn't tested at all and i'd change a few things.
Creatures
4 Putrid Imp
4 Narcomoeba
4 Golgari Grave Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug
4 Bloodghast
2 Ichorid
3 Hapless Researcher
2 Sun Titan
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
Spells
4 Bridge from Below
4 Breakthrough
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Dread Return
Lands
4 Undiscovered Paradise
4 City of Brass
4 Cephalid Coliseum
2 Dakmor Salvage
Sideboard (15)
3 Ancient Grudge
4 Chain of Vapor
4 Firestorm
1 Nature's Claim
1 Iona
2 Unmask
The Sun Titan engine was pretty insane, suntitan into Coliseum is just game over every time. I wanted the FKZ for combo and mirror matches so you could pull out the win really fast when necessary but if i knew the meta better i probably would run it in the board.
I think i'd cut the Hapless' they were fine but not amazing, interacting with suntitan was good, blocking for a turn, and getting a bridge token (or removing bridges in the mirror) is all fine, but not amazing i liked them a little more than carful's, i might keep 1 just for the sun titan interaction.
I'd totally run the Firestorms main, i really regretted not doing so, i boarded them in every single round. Getting around counterspells and killing creatures? sign me up the only thing they aren't good against is fast combo, but they are still an outlet.
I'd probably want an extra land to support that though.
Bloodghasts were awesome, i was way more impressed with them then Ichorids. I was happy with the 2 Ichorids, but i don't think i would want any more.
I really liked this deck despite all the things wrong with my build, I guess i'll have to get the last 12 foils i need for it now. =P
I have a question about sideboarding against Merfolk, knowing they are bringing in Relic. First, I should tell you the sideboard I'm using next weekend as it's a small metagame, and ignoring hate isn't going to work for me.
4 Firestorm
4 Nature's Claim
3 Ancient Grudge
1 Ichorid
1 Elesh Norn
1 Terastodon
1 Ancestor's Chosen
Against fish, there are several cards I want to side in, but I need to know what's best. Firestorm, Grudge, Ichorid and Elesh Norn all seem like possibilities. I know siding all those in is not the best idea since we're a tight combo deck, but here's what I'm thinking I'll do for game two. I use Feldman's list, by the way.
-4 Careful Study, -2 Dread Return, -1 Cabal Therapy
+4 Firestorm, +3 Ancient Grudge
Is it too radical to side out all my DR against folk? I've never been a fan of trying to resolve one in the matchup, but I understand how much of a beating Elesh Norn is against them. I'm really just curious what you guys would do given my board.
First of all, your board looks really good. That's a good 15 cards to go with.
Against folks everyone has the problems you mentioned. Side out DR for max consistency or go with Elesh Norn?
To start with, I'd leave Studies in and cut Breakthrough. You're probebly not going to resolve any draw effect anyway, and going all in on BT can cost you a game. Study digs for Firestorms and slowly keeps your engine going.
Then, you need the set of Firestorms. And Ancient Grudges depend on wether they have hate or not. If you know they have, take in all 3 Grudges. If you're unsure you can go with 2 and take the third in for game 3 if you need to.
All in all I would board:
-4 Breakthrough, -1 Golgari Thug, -1 Dread Return, -1 Putrid Imp
+4 Firestorm, +3 Ancient Grudge
If you really want the Elesh, try: -4 Breakthrough, -1 Thug, -1 PImp, -1 Cabal Therapy; +4 Firestorm, +2 Ancient Grudge, +1 Elesh Norn
Being an advocate of Firestorm maindeck, and believing that 8 discard should be enough, I'd say I'd side Tireless Tribe for Firestorms with your list.
I'd also always keep at least 1x Dread Return, and then, siding a few careful seems about right, but I'd try to balance the deck properly.
So I think I'd side like this:
-4 Tireless Tribe, -1Dread return, -2 Careful Study
+4 Firestorm, +3 Ancient Grudge
Siding Elesh Norn would be trickier, since I don't like relying on Firestorm with too few Dredgers, So I think if I was to side Elesh, I'd skip siding Grudges, or the deck could malfunction.
My thoughts.
If you fail to explain the reason behind your choice, technically, it's the wrong choice.
Zerk Thread -- Really, fun deck! ^^
No. Don't bring in Ancient Grudge. Cutting a Putrid Imp to bring in Ancient Grudge is really bad. Try
+4 Firestorm
+1 Ichorid
+1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
-4 Breakthrough
-2 Cabal Therapy
Man, Richard Feldman taught you how to build and sideboard the deck. [Completely unproductive flame removed. Verbal warning. - Bardo]
Last edited by Bardo; 08-26-2011 at 03:35 PM.
Magic Level 3 Judge
Southern USA Regional Coordinator
No need to call people stupid for trying to improve, IMHO.
Richard Feldman also told us to use Chain of Vapor once, and came back on that. I think this is a matter worth discussing.
Also, I find siding Cabal Therapy out to be a mistake whenever I think about it.
If you fail to explain the reason behind your choice, technically, it's the wrong choice.
Zerk Thread -- Really, fun deck! ^^
Feldman's sideboard is also tuned for a big tournament. I'm talking about my local shop with weekly events where everyone knows what each other are playing. So I run into graveyard hate every single game two, but I don't have any other decks to play so I'm stuck with this. That's why I don't use Feldman's sideboard: it isn't suited for my metagame.
Don't go backwards. Only move forward.
Siding out Cabal Therapy against a deck where every card is identical seems fine. And he's been siding it out for 2 years in Legacy and more in Extended. He knows what he's doing.
Seriously. I don't care if you're running into graveyard hate. The point of his article is that the best answer to graveyard hate is an active Tireless Tribe/Putid Imp and a blue draw spell. The only graveyard hate worth dedicating actual answers to is: Leyline of the Void, Planar Void, Wheel of Sun and Moon, Yixlid Yailer. (There may be a few similar cards). Boarding in Ancient Grudge against Relic of Progenitus is not actually that effective.
I get it. Dredge seems like a deck that lets you be cute. "Oh look at me, Dread Returning Iona/Sun Titan/Flamekin Zealot/Hundroog." Stop it. You wouldn't cut a Goblin Matron to run Wort, the Raidmother would you? Not even if it made your Pyrokinesis that much better.
Every time you go against the established Dredge wisdom, somewhere a Bridge from Below becomes a Bridge to Nowhere.
I have an article that I may write one day about how to beat hate with Dredge, but I'm not convinced people would notice.
Magic Level 3 Judge
Southern USA Regional Coordinator
Don't get me wrong, my only fixed Dread Return is a Sadistic in SB and is used against combo, where I know it to win the game without giving them the chance to come back even if it is a small DR. There is no reason for you to say things like this to me.
Now, saying he knows what he's doing because he does that since forever is something to consider, but still he has been doing this forever and just this year he cutted grudge from SB.
And see, you also agree with me (and thus not that much with him) that fighting Leyline is worth it, so it is a valid discussion.
I dislike going in a game where I am already siding out the cards that flood my graveyard (draw spells) with even less Sacrifice outlets. Besides, Cabal Therapy adds up for a successful cast of Dread Return, protecting from counterspells. I still think it is wrong. But even if I had to, I'd side only 1.
And for grudges, maybe you are right, maybe it's not worth siding it... If you wanna share your experience about this, I'd appreciate.
If you fail to explain the reason behind your choice, technically, it's the wrong choice.
Zerk Thread -- Really, fun deck! ^^
Welcome to The Source: Your Source for Honest Patronization.
The archetype has evolved so much over the past few years that even the most basic, fundamental principals have changed. I've read Feldman's article multiple times, studied it, and buried into my memory, yet I believe Damon W. (Parcher) summed it all up in a nutshell when he said, "Even the subtlest of changes can cost you a game." Feldman's article, while deep in its approach, still won't change Dredge players' attitudes towards what they feel are optimal choices, because Dredge is one of the most meta-dependent decks in the format. The core of a Dredge deck might never change, but siding strategies will.
People can argue that until they're blue in the face and it won't matter, because each player brings a unique aspect of their game to the archetype (and game in general), and to dismiss someone who might seem more, say, 'enlightened' on the topic doesn't mean they're necessarily, as you put it, "stupid." I am currently diving deep into the realm of Dredge, and I've been listening to those players who are much better than I am and far more experienced in the archetype to take note what I should and shouldn't do, as well as could and could not do. Big difference there, and I think this is where you're mistaken. There are, in fact, flex slots where quantity can be adjusted slightly to improve on meta-dependent decisions.
Those players who ride a certain style of play might not be as accomplished as he (Feldman) or his thriving wisdom within the confines of the 'Dredge' archetype, but there's no need to debunk others' theories towards opening up legitimate optimism on an archetype that has changed dramatically over the course of its inception. There are so many would-be experts on the topic that it makes sense sometimes to listen to a fresh opinion on the topic.
Also, your definition of "cute" as it pertains to Dread Return targets seems a bit confusing; if you are referring to targets that are suboptimal in general, then yes, you are correct in your assumption. However, there are in fact a great deal of targets that are better suited to do exceptionally well in a targeted, specific meta. To simply paste someone for trying to adjust while adhering to the intricacies of play that people like Feldman and Parcher have taught us is just ludicrous. As a studier of these guys' time and efforts, I can say with full conviction Dredge has become more meta dependent than ever before. It is a deck that punishes players for making poor sideboarding choices and decks that have inexplicably terrible game one's against turbo-aggressive strategies.
Don't forget this interesting read, too.
Exactly how "accomplished" is Feldman with Dredge, anyhow? The only results that I've heard of are his going 9-6 with it at the GP years ago. That record includes two byes.
My SB against Merfolk would be +3 Ancient Grudge +1 Elesh Norn/Iona -4 Breakthrough. I didn't like Firestorm when I tested it so I dropped it from my 75. I'd personally never cut Cabal Therapy during post board games coz I like to see if I can finish off my opponent after playing around the hate by ensuring that he/she does not have any other tricks up his/her sleeve. And it's one of the two spells (dread return being the other one) that make zombies from warm bodies.
Dredge is metagame dependent in one way: you need to know when to set it aside. And occasionally you radically alter your sideboard but still play the deck if a significant portion of decks are matchups that are solvable but bad.
Enchantress and Lands are both matchups that are easily solvable, but are bad otherwise. Stax, by contrast, is a matchup that is both bad and basically unsolvable. Combo is bad but somewhat solvable. The solvable matchups you can make drastically better by devoting an extra 3-4 sideboard slots.
(And if you're curious, Feldman and Zac Hill were a deckbuilding force during Extended, and few of the people to seriously devote time to Dredge.)
As far as I can tell, the optimal dredge list is:
Richard Feldman's 60
Sideboard:
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
4 Firestorm
1 Ichorid
1 Terastodon/Angel of Despair/Woodfall Primus
0 Ancient Grudge.
Then you can put in a variety of packages or bullets.
4 Nature's Claim (against Leyline decks)
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite (against Elves)
3-4 Winds of Change (against combo)
1 Blightseel Colossus (Painter's Servant)
1 Dread Return
1 Sphinx of Lost Truths
(Preliminary package if you have several matchups in the field you need to combo out against, coupled with one or more of the following (depending on matchups):
1 Flame-kin Zealot
1 Aura Thief
1 Realm Razer)
3-4 Leyline of the Void
For example, my paper list is his -1 Elesh Norn, +1 Aura Thief.
Magic Level 3 Judge
Southern USA Regional Coordinator
Hi everybody, I am new on the forum, but I read the Dredge's Topic since sometimes.
I play the deck in France and I have few questions for you about some specificities.
First of all, this is my deckbuild.
As you seen it, this is classical list of LED-Dredge, quite similar to Vandalize's one, but as he said really strong and stable.4 [OD] Cephalid Coliseum
4 [8E] City of Brass
4 [TSP] Gemstone Mine
1 [M12] Sun Titan
1 [SHM] Woodfall Primus
2 [RAV] Darkblast
2 [RAV] Golgari Thug
4 [RAV] Golgari Grave-Troll
4 [RAV] Stinkweed Imp
3 [TO] Ichorid
4 [FUT] Narcomoeba
4 [TO] Putrid Imp
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
2 [TO] Deep Analysis
2 [TSP] Dread Return
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
3 [FUT] Street Wraith
4 [TO] Breakthrough
4 [FUT] Bridge from Below
SB: 1 [ZEN] Iona, Shield of Emeria
SB: 1 [NPH] Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
SB: 3 [TSP] Ancient Grudge
SB: 4 [M11] Leyline of Sanctity
SB: 4 [ON] Wispmare
SB: 1 [RAV] Darkblast
SB: 1 [TO] Ichorid
The presence of 2 Darkblasts Maindeck is mainly for Merfolk, and I prefer it than Firestorm because it is recursive and really strong at the 1st game, and open to more Sideboard options at the 2nd &/or 3rd game.
But I have many questions to Dredge players (and you ReAnimator).
1- Inside my build I dithering to do 11 dredgers and 3 Deep Analysis to gain rapidity against some decks like HiveMind for example.
2- ReAnimator, I use Sun Titan like a new River Kelpie to be faster, but are you fizzling with more than 1 slot and with your Bloodghasts ?
3- In a Combo metagame, I have 4 Winds of Change in my SB, I tried to use it unsuccessfully against HiveMind, what is your SB solution against this deck ?
To answer your question igri_is_a_bk, against Merfolk, I exit the DreadReturn plan and insert my 4th Ichorid, 3rd Darkblast and +2 Ancient Grudge, and for me it is always quite well.
I think i could definitely cut a titan or more likely the FKZ. I wouldn't cut the bloodghasts at all, they were amazing for me and way better than ichorids. However my list is significantly different from yours, i don't have as many black creatures that you do to fuel ichorids, and i have more lands and ways to get land back with the dredge land and undiscovereds, so ghasts are going to work a lot better for me.2- ReAnimator, I use Sun Titan like a new River Kelpie to be faster, but are you fizzling with more than 1 slot and with your Bloodghasts ?
As far as fizzling goes, i found i fizzled more with only 1 titan, sometimes you just wouldn't hit one, so you would have to dredge a lot, where as if you have two you usually hit one early and that would get coliseum on line and do the rest of your deck and bring all the ghasts back to get the next titan, and you would just chain through your whole deck. The nice thing about bloodghasts and titans is that you can get ghasts back multiple times a turn, whereas ichorid does not do this.
Hope this is helpful, like i said i had zero testing and i'd make a few changes so test things out for yourself i have no idea if my list is good, just that it worked well for me.
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