SoLS is useful in many MUs:
B/W Discard, Any controls, Any heavy removal decks, Mirrors, Zoo, its not useful only vs Combo/Tribals. Recurring Creatures is the key why this Sword is so good, also protection from B/W is very good in many MU since 90% removal is B or W.
Wing Shards is as X-1 removal which can touch Progenitus/protected dudes useful vs Middle-Range, all NO decks, and every deck which use Hydra, it can also took off Ecthion Champion and it's useful vs Goblins.
SoLS is useful in many MUs:
B/W Discard, Any controls, Any heavy removal decks, Mirrors, Zoo, its not useful only vs Combo/Tribals. Recurring Creatures is the key why this Sword is so good, also protection from B/W is very good in many MU since 90% removal is B or W.
Wing Shards is as X-1 removal which can touch Progenitus/protected dudes useful vs Middle-Range, all NO decks, and every deck which use Hydra, it can also took off Ecthion Champion and it's useful vs Goblins.
I think we could sideboard skinshifter. 1 copy don't hurt that much, he tutorable and vs zoo he's a really good blocker at 0/8 that's almost impossible to bolt. He can also fly if needed.Originally Posted by _erbs_
What you guys think of him ?
You: Activate Skinshifter making him a 0/8.
Me: In response, bolt him.
You: Ok :(
Why are you playing a card that "don't (sic) hurt that much" when you could be playing a card that helps you?
Tom? Is that you? I thought you were going to go work on DnD?
Regarding the quick Zoo matchup:
Get out Thrun. Seriously, they have no answers at all for him, or any creatures that size, especially with the newer small zoo lists that don't play Knights. If you resolve him (the 4 GSZ help here), you usually win. Also, hardcasting Batterskull beecomes an option if they use removal on your SFM. I usually go for Batterskull before I go for Jitte with Stoneforge because Jitte needs a creature to do anything, which is frequently a problem against them.
Scavenging Ooze is pretty good against them, too.
Mental Misstep is good in this matchup if you feel like running them, too.
My SB'ing plan against small (Knight-less) Zoo is:
-1 Gaddock Teeg
-3 Aven Mindscensor
+2 Path to Exile
+2 Dueling Grounds
Just to let you guys know, not only did GW Maverick take down the German Legacy Champs last week but also the Swiss Legacy Champs! Hooray! :D
The seven cardinal sins of Legacy:
1. Discuss the unbanning ofLand TaxEarthcraft.
2. Argue that banning Force of Will would make the format healthier.
3. Play Brainstorm without Fetchlands.
4. Stifle Standstill.
5. Think that Gaea's Blessing will make you Solidarity-proof.
6. Pass priority after playing Infernal Tutor.
7. Fail to playtest against Nourishing Lich (coZ iT wIlL gEt U!).
Hey Julian,
You're the one who keeps beating up my Big Zoo list, eh? ;)
Why the Tropical in your list?
Tom? Is that you? I thought you were going to go work on DnD?
That would be the general plan but before you could ramp your mana to 4 your life is around 6-7 thrun., several swings and a bolt and its gg already.., and no matter how you put it the chances of you developing 5 mana or top decking your single ton thrun main is quit long.. if you are able to survive the early turns then your on your way to victory against small zoo.
@Mental Misstep
Yes it really helps a ton in this matchup but besides small zoo and the following (mirror, maybe bant, white based deck which only relies on STP for removal like stoneblade, etc and combo) i feel its impact seems weak. Against control decks it could only stop there cantrips, sdt, ponder, pierce or snare, etc. but it will not save you from a firespout, deed or engineered explosives or other sweepers.
Im not saying that MM is bad but i feel its use kinda limited and doesn't have a big impact against the decks which have mav has a bad matchup. (expect for maybe combo)
And if you make MM part of the main deck, normally your mid game would weaken to some extent as the walkers for sure will be removed so you you could fit in the 4 mm.
Can you please give link to Swiss top8 decklists? Very interesting.
Hi have a tounament tomorrow morning and i haven't been able to get my hands on mother of runes. Should i replace them with (1) mental misstep ?, (2) some other utility creatures like pridemage, scryb ranger and witness or (3) add a splash of black and put some dark confidant ?
For some reasons, i prefer to add more utility creatures to maintain a more stable manabase, and on the other hand, i want to put bob for some good card advantage.
What you guys think of the situation ?
Of course if i can find some people that want to trade or sell mother of runes before the tournament it'll b great but i want to be prepared if it doesn't happens.
Clearly Mental Missteps for curve reasons. Either 4 Missteps or 3 Missteps and 1 Witness if you don't play her yet. Scryb Ranger loses a lot of his power without Mother of Runes to combo.
I don't even play Mother of Runes.
She seems fair, but doesn't stop many dangerous things.
If people Plow your Knight, just Zenith for a new one.
If you cannot attack without protection from whatever, just attach an equipment.
If Mother has summoning sickness, she doesn't do anything at all.
Not my personal favo. :-P
Misstep does add things: slowing down your opponent helps a lot in general. Next to that it helps defeating Tendrils Combo, it counters discard outlets from Dredge, and it counters Brainstorms that would otherwise help your opponent to better cards in hand. I like it a lot.
Another card you might want to consider is Elspeth. She helps smashing through strong defenses, she makes the mirror more favorable and she just kills control decks. :-)
Last edited by Asthereal; 08-26-2011 at 10:43 AM. Reason: Typo
Ok, here's my list for tomorrow tournament. Feel free to make comments. I'm still not sure if i'll add black for confidant and some disruption.
Maindeck:
4x swords to plowshares
1x sword of fire and ice
1x umezawa jitte
1x batterskull
1x sword of light and shadow
4x green sun's zenith
2x mirran crusader
4x green sun's zenith
1x scavenging ooze
1x gaddock teeg
1x thrun, the last throll
2x elspeth, knight errant
3x qasali pridemage
4x noble hierarch
4x knight of the reliquary
3x mental misstep
4x stoneforge mystic
1x maze of ith
1x dryad arbor
4x savannah
4x windwsept heath
3x horizon canopy
3x forest
2x plains
1x misty rainforest
4x wasteland
Sideboard:
2x krosan grip
2x oblivion ring
3x choke
2x enlightened tutor
3x pithing needle
1x path to exile
2x ghostly prison
@mordraid
hello you may want to consider the following:
-1 sofi
-1 elspeth
-1 forest
-1 plains
-1 gaddock
-1 horizon canopy
+1 karakas
+1 mm
+1 garruk primal hunter
+1 eternal witness
+1 scryb ranger
+1 tropical island
SB
2x krosan grip => i don't use this anymore +1gaddock teeg
2x oblivion ring => what MUs would want to use this ? try using beast within
3x choke -1 choke +1thrun the last troll
2x enlightened tutor
3x pithing needle => im guessing this is for hivemind my combo hate is thorn of amethyst
1x path to exile
2x ghostly prison => im guessing its for aggro or ichorid.., mm helps that department already but if ichorid is common in your place this would be nice.
then for the last spot meta call
my reasons
- having 3 mm feels short mm is strong early on and not drawing them early feels like mm is a waste in the main deck.
- gaddock feels more of a SB card rather main for me.
- if you have garruk primal hunter switch one for eslpeth you wouldn't regret it.
- ranger helps in fixing mana and adds a vigilance creature when needed
If you had Mother out, you could protect your 1st knight and Zenith for a 2nd and have both of them protected. Seems good...
Giving up your Knight to Plowshares just because you can Zenith for another will lose you so many games. Zenith for Knight costs 4, uses up a precious card, and slows you down by a crucial turn where having Mother gives you an un-targetable or unblockable Knight for the win. You seem to assume that it's really easy to find and attach equipment, but it is mana-intensive and unreliable if they counter your Mystic. Against Zoo/heavy removal, good luck having something to equip your Swords to.
I plan on building around Mother/KOTR/Scryb with Mental Misstep protection. Mother is just so versatile. She's one of the best cards in the deck along with KOTR, Zenith, & Mystic, but she desperately needs protection from MM and 1cc removal (only for the first turn), thus, 4 x Misstep.
I love T3/4 Elspeth in this deck. I think 2 is the right number. It's too bad that this deck doesn't filter through a lot of cards (without Sylvan Library, which is hard to find without aforementioned filtering), because I always want to cast her, but I don't think you can play 3/4.
You are removing 1 lands from my total, so i guess you are playing 21 ? isn't that a bit short ? I don't own any tropical or karakas so i guess i'l have to pass on those two.
Why add Tropical Island? He is not playing Rhox War Monk or Rafiq, the Trop would just be a wastable forest. Scryb Ranger, like previously stated, may not be needed since he is not running Mother of Runes. Elsepth is really good in this deck, if you run planeswalkers, run her. And Teeg is really good maindeck right now, with all the NO Rug and Stoneblade decks running around.
so i guess my list isn't that bad ? what would you cut to add the 4 misstep ? or do i really need 4 ?
I like your list a lot, actually. I would cut one of the equipment (you don't need four) for a fourth Misstep. I personally would make some changes in your board, though. Dueling Grounds just seems to be a better version of Ghostly Prison that is in colors for us. If you are running E.Tutor, you need some more targets. I would run a singleton Dueling Grounds, some number of Chokes, a Phyrexian Metamorph, a Pithing Needle/Phyrexian Revoker, a Wheel of Sun and Moon (or some other artifact GY hate), an Ethersworn Canonist/Thorn of Amethyst, Serenity/Null Rod, etc. I also like a couple of Path to Exiles in the board.
I do not see how you can not run at least 3 mindcensors in today's meta : it messes up with the opponent's stoneforge (guess they won't be getting that batterskull after all), NO (nope, no progenitus...) and it even slows down hive mind because they can't use Intuition as a tutor for combo parts.
And that's not talking about all the random cards it can mess, and how, supported with 1-2 waste, it can negate the effect of the opponents fetch and cause a mana death/color death.
Worst case scenario : they know they can't leave it on the board, so it will bait their removal and your knight/sword-bearer will be free to beat them down
Apart from that, and what TossUsToLions just pointed out, I think your list is a good one. I've always like Elspeth in this deck.
Edit : Oh and you should definitely try to fit a Cradle (with batterskull and GSZ, it comes in handy) and a Karakas in your manabase
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