[Deck] Manaless Ichorid

[ajfirecracker]

I'm not certain whether or not the mean average is as imporant as the exact distribution of turn 1, 2 and 3 wins LED decks have over Bauble decks, becausing racing other deck's fundamental turns is what's relevant.

Thanks for putting in the work tho' Kevin.

Actually it depends entirely on the distribution of fundamental turns in the rest of the format. If a lot of people are playing very fast combo decks (and I mean a lot) then you shouldn't play manaless dredge to begin with, but if you do your only hope is to go for the higher-variance LED-based list and hope to race enough of the time to win. If people are playing decks that kill on turn 5-6 like clockwork you're actually much better off with my list, as you'll win all of the games and lose basically none, versus the LED-based list which will actually lose more games in that case. (Since it has larger numbers of extreme games in both directions).

[NecroYawgmoth]

so, after a lot testing...

how are we supposed to win against a superfast deck like Affinity, which open with double Relic?

Phantasmagorian is by no way an option, when we get double timewalked and they start swinging with Master of Etherium and stuff...

[Michael Keller]

so, after a lot testing...

how are we supposed to win against a superfast deck like Affinity, which open with double Relic?

Phantasmagorian is by no way an option, when we get double timewalked and they start swinging with Master of Etherium and stuff...

I am quite certain the odds of Affinity being able to open with double-Relic of Progenitus are not that good. One, maybe. But two requires a bit of luck. Remember, Affinity doesn't mulligan that often, so you're talking about a straight-seven opening up with two Relic and no mulligan. Supposing that doesn't happen and the Affinity player needs to mulligan into that, that can really dumb their hand down enough to where they might not even have a good clock against you. It would be hard to play around, though.

Also, Affinity's only real way of beating Manaless Ichorid is to apply pressure with Cranial Plating and Ornithopter, and assuming they even can, they get blown out by the time they are able apply lethal on board. Affinity rarely plays removal, so all you need to do is stall with a Narcomoeba and proceed to turn your deck upside down a turn or two later and completely destroy them while they opt to turn their creatures sideways - subsequently opening them up for a lethal counter-attack. If they don't attack, well then they'll have to contend with a horde of Zombie tokens.

Playing around Relic and Crypt isn't that hard, really. In order for Affinity to get double-Relic on board, the rest of their hand isn't going to be very productive besides a threat or two. I'm quite certain any opponent you drops two Relics against a Manaless Dredge player is going to win. Working around one is completely doable, but two is extremely difficult - especially if they have a clock. It really wouldn't matter what they're playing at that point; it's just bad.

[KevinTrudeau]

how are we supposed to win against a superfast deck like Affinity, which open with double Relic?

Every deck has a nut hand that they pretty much auto-lose to: three counterspells and an Ethersworn Canonist against Storm, or three Pyroblasts, a Grim Lavamancer, and a Tarmogoyf against Merfolk, or any keepable Solidarity hand against 43 Lands, for example. That hand happens to be one of those hands for Manaless Dredge. Take the (likely) loss and move on.

[NecroYawgmoth]

sry, I misstyped in my last post... I meant a single Relic... a single Relic followed by a fast beater [like Master of Etherium, or Plated Thopter] is kinda unbeatable, cuz the only way to play around Relic is Phantasmagorian, and then double timewalking yourself with an "response->discard3", okay Response Streetwraith into Relic ativation is okay also, but that happens more rarely than a Phantasmagorian to me...

Problem is not Crypts or Traps and the like...

It's just Relic followed by fast beats seems as unwinnable as Leyline, thanks to 3 rounds waiting to start dredging again...

If I always suppose to lose against Leyline AND Relic than I really se no use in playing this over standard Drede =(

Also, what are the best DR-targets here for the main? Is Kelpie better than Sphinx? Do we need the FKZ maindeck, or is "permanent removal" enough?

[Michael Keller]

sry, I misstyped in my last post... I meant a single Relic... a single Relic followed by a fast beater [like Master of Etherium, or Plated Thopter] is kinda unbeatable, cuz the only way to play around Relic is Phantasmagorian, and then double timewalking yourself with an "response->discard3", okay Response Streetwraith into Relic ativation is okay also, but that happens more rarely than a Phantasmagorian to me...

Problem is not Crypts or Traps and the like...

It's just Relic followed by fast beats seems as unwinnable as Leyline, thanks to 3 rounds waiting to start dredging again...

If I always suppose to lose against Leyline AND Relic than I really se no use in playing this over standard Drede =(

Also, what are the best DR-targets here for the main? Is Kelpie better than Sphinx? Do we need the FKZ maindeck, or is "permanent removal" enough?

I strongly recommend you go back and do some research on this archetype and the archetype of Dredge in general before automatically assuming the deck is completely cold to graveyard hate. You learn to play against cards like that; it isn't just acquired knowledge.

You need time and practice to master playing around hate and with the deck in general. You don't just pick the deck up and automatically assume you're going to run the table with it. It takes serious studying and reading articles published by those players who can better help you understand what it takes to succeed with it.

And to answer your question on Dread Return targets: I would check back on previous posts regarding the various configurations people are suggesting to run. My current configuration looks like this:

2x Sphinx of Lost Truths
1x River Kelpie
1x Flame-Kin Zealot

Zealot is necessary to win the game on the spot without having to worry about waiting a turn to win the game. By clearing the path with Cabal Therapies and running through your deck with multiple Dread Returns (potentially) bringing cards like Sphinx and Kelpie back, you're basically going to dump your deck sideways. Master of Etherium is not going to be a problem at all; he's cold to a single Zombie-block and even sustaining a few extra points of damage he provides to alternate attackers isn't going to do anything against you.

You're going to turn your deck upside down with lightning-fast Dredging and Returning; a single swing with a 'Returned Zealot and multiple Zombies is generally way more than enough to seal the deal. Affinity does apply pressure early, but generally by turn three it isn't going to be enough when you can chump with cards like Zombie tokens, Nether Shadow, and Narcomoeba, and just blow them out the next turn.

[NecroYawgmoth]

But you CAN'T chump on turn 3-4 when they start with Relic -_- ...so hard to understand?

I played "normal Dredge" a lot in the past, and I know how to play around hate with it.. It's not that I am a total stupid Dredrge player. I read every Dredge Article, and I play it for a long time, and know how to "use" the archetype...

Maybe I am not so "lightning fast" atm because my only targets are Angel of Despair and Iona.

[Gui]

Yeah, I know Necro, and I know he meant single relic instead of double relic there. He told me earlier today about his testings and how relic was the hardest hate to fight. (disconsidering leyline, in which there isn't much a fight at the moment anyways.)

No need to talk as if he was some random person, he plays regular dredge for a long time.

Besides, it's well known that hate + clock is Dredge's worse enemy, regular, LED or manaless.

[Michael Keller]

But you CAN'T chump on turn 3-4 when they start with Relic -_- ...so hard to understand?

I played "normal Dredge" a lot in the past, and I know how to play around hate with it.. It's not that I am a total stupid Dredrge player. I read every Dredge Article, and I play it for a long time, and know how to "use" the archetype...

Maybe I am not so "lightning fast" atm because my only targets are Angel of Despair and Iona.

How do you figure?

When you proceed to your discard step, you discard a Dredger. That leaves you with seven cards in your hand. Your opponent will then activate Relic of Progenitus (single tap), and you cycle Street Wraith. This will put five or six cards into your graveyard, and upon resolution, you exile Street Wraith (or whatever other useless card you hit) - while you return back to a healthy seven cards in hand as Street Wraith replaces itself with the Dredger - fully ready to discard next turn after your draw step. This trick can also be used in conjunction with Relic's secondary ability (this is turn three or four, now).

And if you hit a Narcomoeba off of that Dredge, well there is your chump-blocker...if you absolutely need it.

The question is whether or not your opponent will then activate Relic for its secondary ability, which is fine, because all it really did was knock out five or six cards. Your opponent has to weigh when the best time to cash in on his or her Relic is. If they opt to pass on using it sooner than later, you can always slow-Dredge with Shambling Shell or Thug, and bait with Gigapede.

Also, if you say you know how to play around hate (like Relic or Crypt) with land-based Dredge, there really isn't too much of a difference between this archetype and that one as it pertains to playing around hate, so I'm not sure why you're asking a question to which you purportedly should already know the answer to...

@Gui: To be honest, I judge people's ideas here on how well they articulate their thoughts and how well they use proper grammar (like most people should do on the internet or any forum for that matter; it's also necessary here). It (at least) shows they care about what they're talking about and make it easier to understand what they are asking or saying. He obviously meant something different than what he said, which was confusing because of the grammatical errors in his post. Even Kevin sounded confused.

[kirkusjones]

So I've been lurking in this thread for awhile, and its definitely been a big help with tweaking my build. For the most part, I prefer this version to regular mana dredge, though sometimes I miss the utility of firestorm. Anyways, I putting a sideboard together for a tournament next week, but I'm going in essentially blind. Based on what's been put up in here, I think I'm going to go for a mix of dread return targets and the reverent silence fetch combo. I have a couple of questions though.

1. Forests or Dryad Arbor (or 2 and 2?)
2. Land Grant or Fetchlands?
3. Which DR targets? I'm currently planning on 2 sphinx, 1 FKZ, 1 Kelpie maindeck, with Elesh, Terrastodon and Blazing Archon in the board. Should I drop the Archon for Iona/Primus?

[Michael Keller]

1. Forests or Dryad Arbor (or 2 and 2?)

I run Forests because they tap for mana immediately; Dryad Arbor is only really good if you're only running Reverent Silence in the board (I run additional hate-bears). It's a body, though.

2. Land Grant or Fetchlands?

I run Land Grant because it replaces itself with a land back into your hand, keeping you at eight cards in your opening draw. In the event you have a Land Grant in your opening draw and your opponent doesn't open with Leyline, you can still discard your turn two (assuming you're forced on the play).

3. Which DR targets? I'm currently planning on 2 sphinx, 1 FKZ, 1 Kelpie maindeck, with Elesh, Terrastodon and Blazing Archon in the board. Should I drop the Archon for Iona/Primus?

That is my current configuration; I'm really liking it and it seems effective. The Kelpie/Sphinx configuration is really interchangeable, but Kelpie has provided me more explosive plays and pretty much Dredges your entire deck by himself. Sphinx, however, can do roughly the same thing - but he is less dependent on Flashback and recursive creatures the turn he comes into play. Even a simple Therapy can cause Kelpie to go crazy, with two triggers on the stack - one for the Therapy as being cast, another as Kelpie comes back into play (he Persists).

[NecroYawgmoth]

yeah... I know that it works fine with Street Wraithes, but I find myself waaaaaay more often having Phantasm than Street Wraith =/ Bad luck I guess =( -> Maybe I am just pissed that I lost every game to Relic today, but maybe it's just bad luck... I will test more

btw, how is the Land Grant?

I am thinking of Land Grant with 2 Forests and 1 Dryad Arbor, because you can fetch the Arbor if you are going for Silence, and then you can transform the Dryad into Zombies... as a 1 off it looks be more awesome than a Forest to me.

Sry for my grammar errors btw, but it's really late here and I am kinda tired and still multitasking a lot of stuff. I need to focus more on what I am doing =/

[KevinTrudeau]

sry, I misstyped in my last post... I meant a single Relic... a single Relic followed by a fast beater [like Master of Etherium, or Plated Thopter] is kinda unbeatable, cuz the only way to play around Relic is Phantasmagorian, and then double timewalking yourself with an "response->discard3", okay Response Streetwraith into Relic ativation is okay also, but that happens more rarely than a Phantasmagorian to me...

Problem is not Crypts or Traps and the like...

It's just Relic followed by fast beats seems as unwinnable as Leyline, thanks to 3 rounds waiting to start dredging again...

If I always suppose to lose against Leyline AND Relic than I really se no use in playing this over standard Drede =(

Also, what are the best DR-targets here for the main? Is Kelpie better than Sphinx? Do we need the FKZ maindeck, or is "permanent removal" enough?

While there is no way to fully dodge Relic of Progenitus unless you run a sideboard that intends to ignore it (check out ajfirecracker's list), there are ways to negate its power to that of a Tormod's Crypt; since this deck is leagues more resilient than mana builds, Tormod's Crypt is actually not as bad as one would initially think (though it's still bad, don't get me wrong).

You highlighted one way to circumvent the tap ability- discard Phantasmagorian. It's the worst of all solutions, but it's at least something. Hollywood highlighted another one, cycling Street Wraith in response to the tap ability. This is the one you hope for, as you'll assuredly have a dredger in hand to rebuild if your opponent pulls the trigger on Relic, and it doesn't cost you any turns. I know of two others off of the top of my head:

-Play a Bauble on the turn where you would normally discard down to seven. Don't crack it, and pass. Opp. then plays Relic. Draw for the turn, and then discard your dredger. Since no one gets priority during the cleanup step, your opponent will have to wait until their turn to tap Relic (meaning, they can't tap Relic twice during the span between you discarding and dredging for the first time). If they do tap Relic on their turn, simply sac the Bauble and exile it instead of the dredger.

-Play two or more Gitaxian Probes on the first turn, and then discard your dredger.

As for Kelpie vs. Sphinx, that is something I'm still undecided on. Sphinx is definitely the safer card, which is why I tentatively utilize it solely since it has a lower chance of bricking than Kelpie. Kelpie though has a much higher upside in that it has the potential to dredge your entire library while only using one Dread Return, meaning you could potentially cast two forms of permanent destruction post-board (such as Child of Alara and Realm Razer, or Terastodon and Angel of Despair) in addition to a Flame-kin Zealot on the same turn.

Elesh, Terrastodon and Blazing Archon in the board. Should I drop the Archon for Iona/Primus?

I'd for sure cut Blazing Archon for Angel of Despair right off the bat- we can potentially chump with Zombie tokens all day against beatdown decks, and as long as we're above fifteen life, we laugh at Emrakul. I'd also just cut Elesh Norn for more sideboard space since it falls into the Iona category of not guaranteeing a win (or quashing a card that would cause us to lose like Propaganda) when exhumed; that is, unless your meta is chock-full of Dredge, in which case it actually does win the game on the spot (barring Chain of Vapor).

Even a simple Therapy can cause Kelpie to go crazy, with two triggers on the stack - one for the Therapy as being cast, another as Kelpie comes back into play (he Persists).

Just to clear up any potential rules snafu that might occur down the line, Kelpie will only trigger once (or won't if it has a -1/-1 counter), for Persist, if it gets sacced with Cabal Therapy; since saccing it is part of the cost of casting Cabal Therapy, it will be in the 'yard before Therapy is fully cast, meaning it won't actually be in play to see Therapy get cast.

[Izor]

Also, Affinity's only real way of beating Manaless Ichorid is to apply pressure with Cranial Plating and Ornithopter, and assuming they even can, they get blown out by the time they are able apply lethal on board. Affinity rarely plays removal, so all you need to do is stall with a Narcomoeba and proceed to turn your deck upside down a turn or two later and completely destroy them while they opt to turn their creatures sideways - subsequently opening them up for a lethal counter-attack. If they don't attack, well then they'll have to contend with a horde of Zombie tokens.

And what about Arcbound Ravager, who makes sure you'll never have a single Zombie in play for the whole game? What about Etched Champion, being unblockable, thus unstoppable with any means to pump it? What about a turn 2-3 Tezzeret, who gives you exactly one more turn before you lose all your life points? Affinity, if undisrupted, usually has lethal on the board by turn 3-4. And by that I mean evasive lethal. I doubt you can do anything about that.

That being said and in order to answer the initial question, there is just no way Dredge wins through a hate plus presure Affinity hand. Even without hate, Affinity is heavily favored in this matchup.

And I'm saying this from a Dredge player's perspective, I'd be happyif it wasn't so. But it's really bad for us. I miss Ancient Grudge and Firestorm so much everytime I play that matchup (and I play it very often)

[kirkusjones]

Thanks for the input guys! I think I'm going to go with the grants, 3 forests and a singleton arbor. As for DR targets, I'll drop the Archon for an Angel of Despair for sure. I would love to fit the magic baby-razer combo in (I've used it before casually and it was awesome) but I think I'll stick with the dependability of Terrastodon and maybe Primus.

I can't remember if it has, but has a sideboard of land grant, taiga, reverent silence and firestorm ever been discussed? Also, what do you gentlemen think of sickening shoal? Someone mentioned it earlier on and it's grabbed my attention.

[Michael Keller]

And what about Arcbound Ravager, who makes sure you'll never have a single Zombie in play for the whole game? What about Etched Champion, being unblockable, thus unstoppable with any means to pump it? What about a turn 2-3 Tezzeret, who gives you exactly one more turn before you lose all your life points? Affinity, if undisrupted, usually has lethal on the board by turn 3-4. And by that I mean evasive lethal. I doubt you can do anything about that.

That being said and in order to answer the initial question, there is just no way Dredge wins through a hate plus presure Affinity hand. Even without hate, Affinity is heavily favored in this matchup.

And I'm saying this from a Dredge player's perspective, I'd be happyif it wasn't so. But it's really bad for us. I miss Ancient Grudge and Firestorm so much everytime I play that matchup (and I play it very often)

Do you honestly think an opponent taking the time to hard-cast creatures like Etched Champion, Arcbound Ravager, or even a Tezzeret are even going to matter in this match? I hope you're not serious, because I'm sorry to disappoint you but Affinity is far from heavily favored in this match. None of those creatures matter by the time you're able to blow them out, and you can just block Ravager all day. Etched Champion is like the only creature you can't block aside from Ornithopter, and that can be blocked by Narcomoeba.

In fact, I'll go as so far to say Manaless Dredge is slightly favored in this match, for the simple reason Affinity requires several turns to finish a game off, where as this deck requires a single alpha-strike. A smart Affinity player is not going to tap out all of their threats so they can block and hopefully remove some of your Bridges. This is where the game because a mess of stall tactics after turn two, and you can bet Affinity is not going to match you threat for threat when you Dread Return into a Kelpie or Sphinx.

And, by the time an Affinity player gets Tezzeret online, they will hardly be doing lethal damage to you. At most they will only have six to seven artifacts in play by turns three or four, and that amounts to twelve to fourteen damage. This is assuming you've Dredged into absolutely nothing relevant (which is nigh improbable), you haven't 'Therapied away one of only two relevant bombs against you, and you haven't Dread Returned by turn three into any one of your bombs.

Affinity is a deck that can just walk into a multitude of problems. It needs a few turns to go lethal, generally by turn four against a similarly turbo-aggressive deck, and by that time you're already on the way to winning by dumping a dozen 3/3 hasty dudes into play.

I just think you seriously overestimate the Affinity match. I fail to see how dropping a bunch of vanilla 1/1's, 2/2's, and 0/2's are even relevant in this matchup when you hit them with ten times as many creatures faster than they can. Ravager is cute for knocking out Bridges, but in the event that happens, they are being forced to trim their threat-density down, or punish their mana-sources. In other words, a tremendously fast start on their part can be completely contradicated at the cost of a single Bridge from Below. In this instance, you have enough firepower to send in a ridiculous amount of damage either by smashing face with hasty Ichorids and Nether Shadows - which can also be pumped by Zealot for an alpha strike.

Affinity runs no hasty threats - we do.

There are really only two cards that matter in this match: Cranial Plating and Tezzeret. You can race either by forcing blockers or shoving attackers into the red-zone. Ravager is simply there to counter-act your Bridges at the cost of an early creature. You can race just as fast if you want to, if not faster. You run Cabal Therapy; put it to work early.

@Kevin: That is correct.

[ajfirecracker]

That is my current configuration; I'm really liking it and it seems effective. The Kelpie/Sphinx configuration is really interchangeable, but Kelpie has provided me more explosive plays and pretty much Dredges your entire deck by himself. Sphinx, however, can do roughly the same thing - but he is less dependent on Flashback and recursive creatures the turn he comes into play. Even a simple Therapy can cause Kelpie to go crazy, with two triggers on the stack - one for the Therapy as being cast, another as Kelpie comes back into play (he Persists).

Despite Kelpie not working in quite this way, it is extremely explosive. When you sacrifice it to Cabal Therapy, it's already in the graveyard by the time it would trigger, and the ability doesn't work from the graveyard, so it won't trigger (at the very least this is true of MTGO).

... Relic of Progenitus ... You highlighted one way to circumvent the tap ability...

-Play two or more Gitaxian Probes on the first turn, and then discard your dredger.

You can also circumvent it with a single probe. Simply draw a discard a blank card, then on your next turn cycle Gitaxian Probe (by which I mean cast it, of course) and discard a dredger. Relic's tap ability is insufficient to stop this line of play.

[K1w1]

Thanks for the input guys! I think I'm going to go with the grants, 3 forests and a singleton arbor. As for DR targets, I'll drop the Archon for an Angel of Despair for sure. I would love to fit the magic baby-razer combo in (I've used it before casually and it was awesome) but I think I'll stick with the dependability of Terrastodon and maybe Primus.

I can't remember if it has, but has a sideboard of land grant, taiga, reverent silence and firestorm ever been discussed? Also, what do you gentlemen think of sickening shoal? Someone mentioned it earlier on and it's grabbed my attention.

Yeah finally. I just recommend sickening shoal. But it's just for me i think, because i'm not playing the Sphinx/FKZ combo and i can easily kill a Knight. And that's what i want! Because i don't wanna see any Bojuka Bog's by using the ability from a Knight.

Except of Gate ofc. They are also playing 1 main without searching for it.

As i said, i played at a tourney and saw another manaless-dredger placed the 2. out of 73.

This is the list:
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
4 Narcomoeba
3 Bloodghast
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Dread Return
4 Golgari Thug
4 Ichorid
4 Nether Shadow
4 Phantasmagorian
4 Sickening Shoal
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Street Wraith
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
1 Woodfall Primus
4 Shambling Shell
2 Dakmor Salvage

//Sideboard:
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
4 Contagion
2 Leyline of the Void
2 Ravenous Trap
1 Sadistic Hypnotist
1 Angel of Despair
1 Realm Razer
3 Urza's Bauble

I'm actually playing this list for testing, but i'm really not sure about not playing the Sphinx/FKZ combo.
What do you think about it?

[K1w1]

Thanks for the input guys! I think I'm going to go with the grants, 3 forests and a singleton arbor. As for DR targets, I'll drop the Archon for an Angel of Despair for sure. I would love to fit the magic baby-razer combo in (I've used it before casually and it was awesome) but I think I'll stick with the dependability of Terrastodon and maybe Primus.

I can't remember if it has, but has a sideboard of land grant, taiga, reverent silence and firestorm ever been discussed? Also, what do you gentlemen think of sickening shoal? Someone mentioned it earlier on and it's grabbed my attention.

Yeah finally. I just recommend sickening shoal. But it's just for me i think, because i'm not playing the Sphinx/FKZ combo and i can easily kill a Knight. And that's what i want! Because i don't wanna see any Bojuka Bog's by using the ability from a Knight.

Except of Gate ofc. They are also playing 1 main without searching for it.

As i said, i played at a tourney and saw another manaless-dredger placed the 2. out of 73.

This is the list:
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
4 Narcomoeba
3 Bloodghast
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Dread Return
4 Golgari Thug
4 Ichorid
4 Nether Shadow
4 Phantasmagorian
4 Sickening Shoal
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Street Wraith
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
1 Woodfall Primus
4 Shambling Shell
2 Dakmor Salvage

//Sideboard:
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
4 Contagion
2 Leyline of the Void
2 Ravenous Trap
1 Sadistic Hypnotist
1 Angel of Despair
1 Realm Razer
3 Urza's Bauble

I'm actually playing this list for testing, but i'm really not sure about not playing the Sphinx/FKZ combo.
What do you think about it?

[Izor]

Do you honestly think an opponent taking the time to hard-cast creatures like Etched Champion, Arcbound Ravager, or even a Tezzeret are even going to matter in this match? None of those creatures matter by the time you're able to blow them out, and you can just block Ravager all day. Etched Champion is like the only creature you can't block aside from Ornithopter, and that can be blocked by Narcomoeba.

Yes, I seriously think so. Manaless typically wins on turn 3-4 (if playing FKZ), I think we agree here. Of course, Affinity goes first. They usually drop Champion on turn 2 and Tezzeret by turn 3. Please don't claim that manaless Dredge can race Affinity all the time on the draw if they kill you by turn 4. Also, you seem to not understand exactly what Ravager actually does in this matchup. Yes, you can block it, that's not the problem. He just makes sure you will never have a single Zombie token in play. Do you realize that manaless Dredge can not win without Zombie Tokens in play, especially not by turn 4-5? Not even if you resolve 5 DRs (not that you would ever be able to without Bridges). Besides, they play 4 Ornithopter, 4 Etched, 4 Vault Skirge and usually 4 Signal Pest as well as sometimes some Blinkmoth Nexus. That's more evasive critters than you gave them.

In fact, I'll go as so far to say Manaless Dredge is slightly favored in this match, for the simple reason Affinity requires several turns to finish a game off, where as this deck requires a single alpha-strike. A smart Affinity player is not going to tap out all of their threats so they can block and hopefully remove some of your Bridges. This is where the game because a mess of stall tactics after turn two, and you can bet Affinity is not going to match you threat for threat when you Dread Return into a Kelpie or Sphinx.

If they have an evasive creature, you are the one who has to go offensive first, losing your Bridges in the process. If they have Ravager, it's even worse. You can of course claim that they have none of those, but that's approximately as probable as you not having a Dredger in your opener.

Affinity is a deck that can just walk into a multitude of problems. It needs a few turns to go lethal, generally by turn four against a similarly turbo-aggressive deck, and by that time you're already on the way to winning by dumping a dozen 3/3 hasty dudes into play.

Another thing that's pretty much invalidated by a Ravager.

I just think you seriously overestimate the Affinity match. I fail to see how dropping a bunch of vanilla 1/1's, 2/2's, and 0/2's are even relevant in this matchup when you hit them with ten times as many creatures faster than they can. Ravager is cute for knocking out Bridges, but in the event that happens, they are being forced to trim their threat-density down, or punish their mana-sources. In other words, a tremendously fast start on their part can be completely contradicated at the cost of a single Bridge from Below. In this instance, you have enough firepower to send in a ridiculous amount of damage either by smashing face with hasty Ichorids and Nether Shadows - which can also be pumped by Zealot for an alpha strike.

Affinity runs no hasty threats - we do.

It's exactly that. All thise vanilla dudes are exactly what will keep your whole deck from working with Ravager. They play like 20 creatures they can sacrifice into Ravager, it's practically impossible that their whole pressure is taken away by one sac. I guess we can agree that you will not ever win via FKZ if you have no Bridges. So don't just pretend that they are the aggro deck that can just try to bash until you pull off your undisruptable combo. They disrupt your whole game plan. At that point our combo finish is pretty meh, if FKZ is your only hasty dude after DR.

There are really only two cards that matter in this match: Cranial Plating and Tezzeret. You can race either by forcing blockers or shoving attackers into the red-zone. Ravager is simply there to counter-act your Bridges at the cost of an early creature. You can race just as fast if you want to, if not faster. You run Cabal Therapy; put it to work early.

They have a huge load of stuff that can kill you in a moment and you can do pretty much nothing against any card that comes down turn 2, because there is just no single way you can cast a Therapy by their second turn.

Today I lost against Affinity with my mana build, even though I had turn 1 Careful Study and turn 2 Careful Study plus Breakthrough. Just because of one single Ravager with a bit of food. And a turn 2 Etched. Dredge just loses to that.


But anyway, I don't want to go overboard with one single matchup in this thread.