All B/R update speculation.

[dontbiteitholmes]

I mean the only legitimate reason not to unban Black Vise is that it would make Mike T happy.

There are plenty of legitimate reasons not to unban Black Vise

#1 - Stasis.dec suddenly and without warning could become a tier deck, and no one except maybe me wants that.
#2 - It could be the kill condition Stax has been waiting for. Now they don't have to clog up their decks with 8x cards that turn sideways, they can just put in nothing but lock pieces and 4x Vise.
#3 - With Black Vise, Prosperity is a wincon. Anyone who remembers why Vise got restricted in Vintage in the first place knows what I mean.

Granted probably only 1 or 2 of these is really viable in the end, but really no one here wants to play through a format with a strong Stasis deck in it I can assure you.

[NecroYawgmoth]

Well... I think Black Vise is unnecessary banned for a long time...

Go ahead, and play it in your Stasis deck... Will Stasis than be the MtG Nutz0rs DTB? No, i't won't... Stasis won't, Staxx won't, and Prison decks have better options to kill the opponent, which doesn't suck in the lategame [like Elspeth for Stax, or Garruk / Jace for Stasis]

The only deck where I can see Black Vise being any good is burn... and even here it's the worst topdeck possible... imagine facing a Progenitus while on -10 life, and the opponent is at 3 topdecking.... Black Vise, ugh... any Bolt / Fireblast / whatever would be better here...

Also, Why do you assume that you can drop a Black Vise and win... Do your opponents react like: "duh, Black Vise. I better play no spells"

-Mulligans are a big part of the game
-FoW and MM are a big part of Legacy.

other than that, Legacy is hellafast... sure you hit them for 3 damage t1, but this won't happen the next turns.

-> Zoo can Play Nacatl, and starts smashing face for 3+ every turn while Black Vise doesn't, Goyfs and co joining *laughing at Black Vise*
-> NO Rug puts a Progenitus into play turn 3 and smashes for 10 *laughing at Black Vise*
-> Hive Mind throws a Pact in your face *laughing at Black Vise*
-> Blade Control searches Batterskull which keeps attacking you with lifelink *laughing at Black Vise*
-> Combo just kills you turn 3 *laughing at Black Vise*
-> Dredge just plays a discardoutlet *laughing at Black Vise*

also... Legacy is flooded with MM

realize that Vise-Age was 1994, followed by Dark-Age/Black Summer 1996, but we are living 15 years afterwards in 2011

[majikal]

I don't think Black Vise will ever come off the banned list just because it's so goddamned annoying to play against. There are few cards in the history of Magic that make people rage like Vise does.

[Tacosnape]

I agree with Majikal. Also, they don't like to add more cards to Legacy that make winning the die roll the biggest factor in your success. Hence the printing of Mental Misstep.

Plus, for all the things I see about better strategies, I'd personally be the guy playing Vise in an all blue shell, abusing things like Jace Beleren and other multiple draw outlets. Stop the other strategies and Vise for the win. If it fails, Clique and JMS them. Or Snapcaster Mage them. Whatever.

And nobody seems to be taking into account that you can play Vise with other actual strategies. Like dropping two off a Tomb. Or playing Trinisphere. Or whatever.

I'm willing to bet it'd become a format defining card if unbanned.

[Lancer]

I agree with Majikal. Also, they don't like to add more cards to Legacy that make winning the die roll the biggest factor in your success. Hence the printing of Mental Misstep.

This is why I said: if you played magic before Vice Age then you have no excuse in supporting Black Vise. You should know what the card does and how other players feel about the card.

Plus, for all the things I see about better strategies, I'd personally be the guy playing Vise in an all blue shell, abusing things like Jace Beleren and other multiple draw outlets. Stop the other strategies and Vise for the win. If it fails, Clique and JMS them. Or Snapcaster Mage them. Whatever.

A reason why I didnt want to *post a deck list* because the attention will be based upon my deck building skill and not on the card in question.

Odd how those supporting Black Vise points to burn and those opposing Black Vise is saying control (control lock).

And nobody seems to be taking into account that you can play Vise with other actual strategies. Like dropping two off a Tomb. Or playing Trinisphere. Or whatever.

Tomb and Trinisphere... The Winner! Because a legal Black Vise will ban Tomb/Trinisphere within a month and I dont see any health in that.

I'm willing to bet it'd become a format defining card if unbanned.

I'll actually be much worse then since Black Vise is cheap and can fit with any deck.

I must not have been clear. I don't think Black Vise would be a problem even if Misstep weren't legal in the format. The fact that it is just makes it that much more certain it wouldn't be a problem.

Unbanning without Misstep is the worst mistake ever, so I cannot see how Black Vise can be a healthy card before Misstep.

This is a contradictory statement. If Mental Misstep makes a good deck, it is essentially a deck building requirement. That's why it sees play almost everywhere, even in non-blue decks like Zoo. Players who play Burn and ANT in this environment are either masochists or don't actually care about winning tournaments.

When I speak of Legacy Im talking about Tournament, Casual and Kitchen Table. The format is played more outside of Star City.

I don't disagree with this sentiment, but Mental Misstep's very existence makes Mental Misstep a requirement; Black Vise has nothing to do with it.

there is no single current threat that needs to be counterspell. There are targets that makes misstep playable and it's number one target is Brainstorm because players build their decks around the importance of the early turn Brainstorm draw and missteping it screws those players easy.

[Gheizen64]

This is why I said: if you played magic before Vice Age then you have no excuse in supporting Black Vise. You should know what the card does and how other players feel about the card.

They feel the card sucks nowadays. But meta here is mostly combo, so it could be for that reason.

A reason why I didnt want to *post a deck list* because the attention will be based upon my deck building skill and not on the card in question.

The reason you didn't post a decklist is that such a decklist doesnt' exist. Because if Vise is broken as you say, you can easily post terrible lists like i did in the B&R deckbuilding challenge. Did i care when people called out on me? No because i know they're right and that we're here to discuss and improve, not to fossilize on stupid preconcepted positions.

Odd how those supporting Black Vise points to burn and those opposing Black Vise is saying control (control lock).

Control Lock sucks in this format. Prison doesn't need a win condition, it need a way to lock people in the first place. The reasons it can't do so are multiple, the most important is that unlike Vintage, Legacy decks play a lot of differents permanents, non-spell mana sources and win condition.
ANY form of prison isn't viable and wouldn't be with Vise.

Not
a
single
one

Tomb and Trinisphere... The Winner! Because a legal Black Vise will ban Tomb/Trinisphere within a month and I dont see any health in that.

Stax sucks in this format. Chalice aggro decks are a joke for a reason. You want to see a Stasis deck with Vise in it? I'll make a list for you at the end of the post for you to playtest so maybe you could change your mind.

I'll actually be much worse then since Black Vise is cheap and can fit with any deck.

And actually do nothing past T1. Full circle.

Unbanning without Misstep is the worst mistake ever, so I cannot see how Black Vise can be a healthy card before Misstep.

Vise would be healty even without Misstep. For the simple reason that Vise sucks against non-misstep decks in the first place.

When I speak of Legacy Im talking about Tournament, Casual and Kitchen Table. The format is played more outside of Star City.


there is no single current threat that needs to be counterspell. There are targets that makes misstep playable and it's number one target is Brainstorm because players build their decks around the importance of the early turn Brainstorm draw and missteping it screws those players easy.

False.
Vial, Lackey, Confidant, Show and Tell, Natural Order are all cards that will downright win the game in the space of 3 turns at most if unanswered.


An hypotetical Vise Prison List:


4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Black Vise
3 Trinisphere
4 Flagstones of Trokair
4 Wasteland
4 Plains
4 Rishadan Port
3 Crucible of Worlds
3 Mox Diamond
3 Sphere of Resistance
4 Armageddon
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Rule of Law
4 Tangle Wire
4 Chalice of the Void

[mordraid]

Stop complaining about black vise and move on to some real discussion please.

[(nameless one)]

Stop complaining about black vise and move on to some real discussion please.

Like Land Tax.

Honestly, I don't care about the 'logistical nightmare' behind that card. Its not broken and I want to play Parfait again.

Screw blue and screw two card combos (of course, expect Tax+Rack)

That or Goblin Recruiter.

Like what I said above, Screw blue and screw two card combos.

[Sims]

Do you honestly think, even if they unban Tax, that Parfait will even be competitive? While you're fetching 3 lands a turn and taking your time to set up Tax + Rack, they're going to be casting NO for Prog, SNT for Hive, etc...

Land Tax doesn't even matter at this point, because even if they let it off the list it will do nothing more than spike in price from speculators trying to cash in on their 30 playsets. The card won't make a dent in Legacy.

[(nameless one)]

Do you honestly think, even if they unban Tax, that Parfait will even be competitive? While you're fetching 3 lands a turn and taking your time to set up Tax + Rack, they're going to be casting NO for Prog, SNT for Hive, etc...

Land Tax doesn't even matter at this point, because even if they let it off the list it will do nothing more than spike in price from speculators trying to cash in on their 30 playsets. The card won't make a dent in Legacy.

It might see play in some fringe decks. Its no Entomb but hey, Grim Monolith, Metalworker, Dream Halls, Replenish and Illusionary Mask still see plays in some fringe decks.

[Gheizen64]

I'm currently testing that list against the hypotetical natural enemy of Vise and slowest deck of the current format, Stoneblade

Game1:
Prison - Port, Vise, Tomb, Trini, Crucible, Plains, CotV
SB - FoW, Daze, Crucible, Batterskull, Tundra, SFM, Polluted delta
Prison start with plain->Vise, SB let it pass. SB go to 17, draw brainstorm, play tundra, pass. T2 Prison draw Rule of Law, lay Tomb, cast Rule. SB respond by casting brainstorm, draw StP, Force, Jace, Put Sword and polluted delta on the top, then use FoW pitching Daze going to 16 (SB has 5 cards in hand now). SB take 1 , draw delta. Play delta, cast SFM, get nothing since i already have Batterskull in hand and don't need SoFaF now (i play that sword in my SB list). Prison untap, draw plain, play Port, cast CotV on 1 with tomb, pass. SB untap and on upk Prison try to tap a tundra with port, SB in response activate SFM and lay Batterskull. Draw Landstill (4 card in hand) and pass. Prison draw Trokair, lay trokair and Trinisphere using non-tomb lands, pass. SB draw SfoaF, attack with batterskull it's game.

G2: Prison start again
Prison: CotV, CotV, Waste, Waste, Trokair, Tangle Wire, Ancient tomb
SB: 2 swords, Standstill, Batterskull and lands, Mull to 6
Force, Standstill, Swords, Tundra, Waste and island, keep
Prison start with the classic Prison opening of Tomb into CotV, SB let it pass. SB draw StP, play waste and waste the tomb. Pris draw Vise, lay Waste and Vise, SB let it pass. SB take 2 (18), draw JTMS, lay island and pass. Pris draw Flagstone, lay flagstone and pass. SB take 2, draw FoFaF. Lay Tundra and Standstill. Prison waste tundra. Draw Sphere of resistance, pass hoping on SB to not draw lands. SB take 1 (15) draw Delta and play it. Pris draw Armageddon, lay trokair and fetch 2 plains. SB take 1 (14), draw SFM. Pris draw Mox Diamond pass. SB take 2 (12) and draw FoW. Pris draw Rule of Law and pass. SB take 3 (9) and draw misstep, discard StP, pass. Pris draw Vise and cast Sphere. Standstill trigger and SB draw Factory, Clique and Tundra. Pitch Misstep to force and counter sphere. Prison try to cast Vise, SB pitch Jace to FoW and counter once again. SB is now at 5 and 6 cards in hand, Prison is at 18 and 5 cards in hand. SB take 2, draw standstill, play factory, pass. Prison try to waste on the upk, in response fetch for Tundra and Clique is casted seeing Pris hand. Nothing is put on bottom and prison draw Port. Play port and cast tangle wire. SB untap, take 1 (now 3) and tap all, drawing Volcanic island.
Play Volcanic island and pass. Prison Tap Vise, Wire and CotV, draw city of traitors. Play diamond discarding City, play geddon, game.

G3: SB start
Prison: City, Lodestone Golem, Waste, Double Port, Geddon, Sphere of resistance
SB: Force, Brainstorm, Spell snare, Brainstorm, StP, Island, Waste
SB play island and pass. Prison draw rule of law, lay waste and pass, eot brainstorm drawing SFM, Batterskull and Tundra. StP and SFM on top, draw SFM, play Tundra and SFM for SoFaF, tundra get wasted. Prison draw Lodestone Golem, play port, pass. SB draw factory, play waste, attack with SFM and pass. Prison draw Vise, lay Port and try to cast Vise, SB BS in response drawing plain, StP and Force. StP and plain go on top, Vise resolve. EoT waste on Port. SB take 2, draw plain, lay plain, pass. Prison untap, draw Rule of law. Lay City of traitors and try to cast Sphere of resistance, but SB force it pitching the other FoW and lay Batterskull in response, it's game.

G4: Prison start
Prison: Sphere of resistance, 2City of traitors, Tomb, Lodestone, Wasteland
SB: Brainstorm, MM, Stansdstill, Standstill, FoW, Counterspell
Prison start with Tomb into sphere, SB counter with FoW pitching a standstill. SB draw island, play island, pass. Prison draw waste, lay city and try to cast Lodestone, SB Brainstorm in response seeing FoW, Tundra, Island. Put Standstill and island on top, FoW the Lodestone pitching MM. Draw standstill, lay tundra and cast standstill. Prison draw Trokair, lay waste, waste Tundra. SB draw and lay island. Prison draw waste, play waste and pass. SB draw Mishra, lay Mishra, get wasted. Prison draw vise. Play waste, pass. SB draw Volcanic pass. Prison waste volcanic, draw another flagstone, lay flagstone. SB draw Flooded strand, play it pass. Prison draw Lodestone, play Flagstone, sacrifice both. EoT fetch for plain. SB draw Standstill, play Tundra. The game goes on a while. Waste on Tundra. Then SB draw SFM and play it, cracking its own standstill, fetch Batterskull. Prison has now 7 cards in hand. Cast lodestone and 2 Vise on his turn. SB pass, Prison lay Crucible and CotV on 1, passing, SB lay batterskull eot. Draw another Standstill, attack with BS (Prison is currently at 10). Prison can't race and has no out to an active SFM + Batterskull and it's game.

G5: Prison start. Not going commentate everything anymore this is getting too time consuming.
Prison try to wastelock with a T2 Crucible, but Sb has a crucible and a fetch on his own, countering the wastelock. Prison then play CotV and Tangle Wire to buy time, but has no win condition while SB is developing his mana base easily and has an hand full of counterspells. Prison then draw Lodestone and play it thanks to Tangle Wire. SB has no out to CotV + Lodestone and don't draw a SFM soon enough, it's game

G6: SB start. SB mull and Pris start with Tomb+ 2 Vise. SB take 4 and draw. Prison lay waste and a third Vise off Waste. SB crack fetch for tundra, take 6 from triple vise. SB play Clique on draw step but put nothing on the bottom seeing 2 Geddon and 2 Crucible. Prison lay crucible, SB take 3 , draw and play a crucible on his own, leaving tundra untapped. Attack with clique and life totals are 13-3. Prison draw waste but it's useless, double waste factory anyway. SB take no damage from vise, draw and play a land from hand. Prison can't find an out for Clique soon enough and SB never goes over 4 card again, game.

G7: Pris start. PRis mull twice thanks to the infamous Prison deck consistency. Lose shortly thereafter due to mana screw.

G8: Pris start. It's SB that mull twice this time. Pris has again the legendary 2xvise on T1 off a City, but it does only 2 damage against the 5 card hand of SB. Prison try to followup with a CotV on 1 but is met by a Spell Snare, meaning now SB has 4 cards. Prison play a tomb and shell the traitors back. SB has however a waste and now pris has only 2 Vise into play. Pris draw mox and has only 1 land in hand, meaning serious trouble. Pris lay port and pass. SB eot Brainstorm and see lot and lot of lands, putting 2 on top. SB draw and fetch away a land playing standstill. Prison pass with no plays. SB draw SFM and play it cracking its own Standstill. Prison draw only a land off the three card, meaning it's still stuck on 2 mana, he play Waste, another Vise and pass. SB pass and Prison see the third land, but it's a bit too late since SFM is active. A tangle wire isn't enough and SB win again.

G9: Pris start, SB mull once. The first play is a SFM on T2 for SB, fetching Batterskull. Prison answer with a T3 lodestone, but it started too slow and can't race Batterskull anymore. A Vise met a misstep and Prison met his demise.

G10: Pris start. Prison start with a Tomb for CotV at 1, followed by a Sphere T2 and another sphere T3 while SB can't do anything, but still lay its lands patiently. With so many spheres, no player can do anything, especially with Rishadan port tapping lands. Prison then try a Lodestone for 6 mana but SB has a 2 mana force. This is actually game since next turn, SB has SFM for Batterskull and Pris has no removal. GG.

Deck was a pile but everyone already knew that.
Rule of law sucks in the format and Oblivion ring is much better (still, SB never used its swords). First change, -4 Rule of Law, +4 Oblivion Ring. Geddon seems also pretty unplayable and stay stuck a lot in your hand, vise or not. White isn't the right shell, maybe blue with lot of mana artifacts and Upheaval? A normal control shell don't really works with vise since you have no ways to keep their hand count high.

[Lancer]

@Gheizen64... sweet Jesus what a shitty deck list... No Force of Will? No Brainstorm? No Tezzeret? No Tabernacle? Stasis? (we been saying Stasis) Please put your heart into it and think like a spike.

Do you know what will happen if Black Vise is unbanned... I'll give you a hint: Forsaken City will jump from a 1 dollar land to a 25/30 dollar land over night. [I have my play set already... do you?]


@(nameless one)... I would like to see Land Tax in Legacy, I'm not sure if DCI is worried about Scroll Rack abuse or deck thinning in general.


A sweet controversial card I would love to see back in Legacy is Mana Drain. Only because I believe there are so many counterspell options already in the mix that players would have to choose between Counterbalance or Mana Drain. The only problem with the unbanning of Mana Drain is allowing the players the mana needed to put Jace into play in an earlier turn and the card will jump form 120 to 300 easy. I never believed in the term "drain targets" because you cannot predict what's the player is going to cast that may force you to counter it but I do understand that ideology has worped deck building for years and pushed the ban for Mana Drain. I have doubts that Legacy will ever see Mana Drain so I'm not really going to push my support for the card but I'm expressing my feelings about the card.

[Admiral_Arzar]

A sweet controversial card I would love to see back in Legacy is Mana Drain.

Blue is already the best color in Legacy by a mile, and is completely raping the meta. You think BLACK FUCKING VISE is the most OP thing ever, and you suggest an unban of MANA DRAIN in an already blue-dominated format? What the fuck stew of mind-altering substances are you on?

[Lancer]

Blue is already the best color in Legacy by a mile, and is completely raping the meta. You think BLACK FUCKING VISE is the most OP thing ever, and you suggest an unban of MANA DRAIN in an already blue-dominated format? What the fuck stew of mind-altering substances are you on?

I also said I dont think the card will ever see legacy (and pointed out why) and will not push my support because I know it will never see legacy but I'm expressing my feelings on the card. Please read my post before you bitch!

[Draener]

Yeah... I gotta agree with Admiral_Arzar on this one. Blue is is well represented now, and the main thing keeping them back is mana constraints. If you give them mana drain, you will remove the only thing keeping blue decks in check.

[Gheizen64]

A reason why I didnt want to *post a deck list* because the attention will be based upon my deck building skill and not on the card in question.

@Gheizen64... sweet Jesus what a shitty deck list... No Force of Will? No Brainstorm? No Tezzeret? No Tabernacle? Stasis? (we been saying Stasis) Please put your heart into it and think like a spike.

Oh the Irony.

First the card would be a brainless include at an auto-4of everywhere. Then it would give prison an imba win condition. Now you need a dedicated stasis shell. But i'll play along and throw some lists again until you finally try something.


And you talk about Drain and Consultation? Drain after the removal of mana burn?

Oh the irony.

p.s. here's the stasis shell i will be trying now


4 Stasis
4 Force of Will
3 Mental Misstep
4 Brainstorm
4 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
21 Island
4 Boomerang
4 Snapback
4 Arcane Denial
4 Black Vise
4 Isochron Scepter

[Admiral_Arzar]

And you talk about Drain and Consultation?

Wait he suggested an unban on Consultation? *HEAD ASPLODE*

I mean, I would like to play with Yawgmoth's Will and Demonic Tutor in my storm decks, but do you see me suggesting their unbans? I'd rather not break the format into a million pieces.

[Dark Ritual]

But you already have black lotus and demonic tutor in storm decks ;)

But seriously, blue is completely dominating right now and you suggest mana drain? *facepalm*.

Black vise isn't that broken. Like Gheizen stated, against stoneblade it can't answer a batterskull. So a batterskull gets online and the prison player is SOL okay got it. Stax type chalice decks are always going to be bad in legacy unless they unban mishra's workshop and the day that happens is the day I quit legacy.

Demonic consultation? Oh please give me that card to play with. Card is not even remotely fair.

[Lancer]

Oh the Irony.

First the card would be a brainless include at an auto-4of everywhere. Then it would give prison an imba win condition. Now you need a dedicated stasis shell. But i'll play along and throw some lists again until you finally try something.

Sure you can go brainless, just pick a deck (zoo, burn, countertop, merfolk) omit something and toss in 4 Black Vise, it's much more of an acceptable then formulating a brainless deck.

Before Black Vise was banned in standard the card was restrictred and auto included in every deck/sideboard.

And you talk about Drain and Consultation? Drain after the removal of mana burn?

Oh the irony.

lol... In a sense, I feel that Land Tax, Black Vise, Mind Twist has been beaten so much with an ugly stick. So I would love to talk about other banned cards.

True, the loss of mana burn does make mana drain so much better and Merfolk can use the card (reguardless if they play or dont play jace).

p.s. here's the stasis shell i will be trying now

4 Stasis
4 Force of Will
3 Mental Misstep
4 Brainstorm
4 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
21 Island
4 Boomerang
4 Snapback
4 Arcane Denial
4 Black Vise
4 Isochron Scepter

Good luck, although I would look up a stasis build first. Boomerange is so 1996...

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Black Vise helps Stasis out a bit with one of its big problems, the clock, but doesn't solve some of its other problems like general inconsistency and people playing fast decks. I mean that's definitely the deck you want to play it in if anything, but it's not going to push the deck to dominance. If it makes it part of the meta, so what? The only reason Stasis is so annoying right now is because it takes them fifty minutes to win a game.

Here's the list I would play btw


16 Island
2 Mikokoro, Center of the Sea
3 Forsaken City

4 Howling Mine
4 Jace Beleren

4 Stasis
4 Propaganda
2 Frozen Aether

4 Force of Will
4 Mental Misstep
3 Arcane Denial

4 Chain of Vapor
2 Echoing Truth

4 Black Vise