[Deck] Dredge

[Izor]

Gratz on the finish, great job! It must have been fun to 2-0 everything in the top 8. Thumbs Up!


As of your list, I noticed that you boarded out Street Wraith in pretty much every round, so would you replace it with something different if you were to play this deck again?

I'm just asking because I play a hybrid build myself and the only difference to your build is -4 Street Wraith, +4 Nether Shadow and I'm more than satisfied with it.

And did you miss Firestorm? I have the set in my board and usually board it in along the anti hate. As you mentioned in your report, one can have difficulties getting your engine going after you use your anti hate by DDDing and Firestorm fixes that to an extent.

[4eak]

@ kabards

good job for michael morrissey's deck, he can now upgrade his CoB whiteboardered to CoB JSS / Arabian Nights

Lol. You know, I actually wanted to play the deck without sleeves - it is fun to win with cheap cards. I wanted to shuffle up that cheap deck like I'm at the kitchen table with playing a hilarious 5 color pile. I'm not sure if that is legal at tournaments though. I can see the conversation going something like: "Oh, is your japenese foil, FBB'd deck really worth $3,000? -- Here's my unsleeved pile worth $100. You killed my father, prepare..." What opponent would take you seriously with an unsleeved deck?


@ laststepdown

I'm actually running a very similar list, putrid imp instead of careful study.

Since I'm DDDing anyways, I prefer the gas. Study is part of consistently winning early. Phantasmagorian does all you need for pitching cards trapped in your hand at instant speed as well.

I run Wispmare in board to fight misstep.

We basically threw the deck together the night before, and we didn't have access to all the cards we might have used. Wispmare is nice. It would replace Ray's, not Claims. Although, the flashback on Ray was useful in several matches, so I'm not sure about Wispmare at this point.

How important was darkblast for you? It seems like the worst card in your 75.

Darkblast was good. I hit Confidants, Arbors, Hierarchs, Cursecatchers, and even Lords with it (neat cascading combat tricks happen when you knock out lords after combat damage). It was useful counterbait, and important for maximizing dredgers. It is certainly one of the weaker cards, but I don't think I'd replace it.


@ Mojeh

Haven't you missed Firestorm in your 75?

Nope. Firestorm is more important if you aren't DDDing every single game. I'd rather run gas or answers.


@ Gui

Switching the discards for 'gorians caught me off guard, I'm deeply interested on wether it was gamebreaker, because it seemed to me that phantasmagorian was not really necessary, although tricky.

Phantasmagorian is gamebreaking good. Is 4 the correct number? I think so, but even just 2 in the deck performs miracles.

• Phantasmagorian allows you to survive t1 Relics while DDDing.
• It enables you to pitch your hand (which is basically like a free dredge) without needing to have casted a spell (the only card that can do this)
• It let's you recur GGT's in your hand while going DDD route - this was vital - I could make a single GGT do a lot more work (just as if I had a PImp or Tribe in play)
• It let me doing instant speed tricks (just like PImp and Tribe) - Information advantage is very powerful.
• The card is Ichorid and GGT fodder.
• It doesn't telegraph your hand or what you are about to do (just like PImp and Tribe).
• It is basically a free, uncounterable, damageless PImp which is immune to board control/removal.

I want constantly begging for a Phantasmagorian to get dredged. I sighed with relief so many times when it got dredged. The mulligan rate was fairly low. At 16 Dredgers, I'd mull 10% of the time; at 13 Dredgers, I'd mull 16% of the time. That 6% difference, in conjunction with the improvements in chain dredging (which I do have the math for), is not worth the loss of Phantasmagorian, not by a longshot.


@ Amon Amarth

Grats! I was very impressed by your methodical, deliberate play. Do you ever get confused when you lay out your GY like that?

I have to slow down to not make as many mistakes (I still made many mistakes). At the end there, I was really tired and somewhat hungry, and it is even easier to make mistakes in that state - so I played even more methodically.

I did get confused often enough. I even failed to see an Iona hiding in my GY in the first match. When we play at my table and in small hometown tournaments, if order doesn't matter (No Nether Shadows, etc.), we allow people to create/stack their graveyard however they want (we often have 4-6 different piles to categorize one Dredge GY). And, on MWS, we have the ability to sort (which makes life really easy). Needless to say, I'm not used to sifting through the GY configuration I used at the tournament.


@ Izor

As of your list, I noticed that you boarded out Street Wraith in pretty much every round, so would you replace it with something different if you were to play this deck again?

I'm just asking because I play a hybrid build myself and the only difference to your build is -4 Street Wraith, +4 Nether Shadow and I'm more than satisfied with it.

Dredge needs to win every single game 1 because it is an uphill battle after sideboarding (although, hate is really not as scary as people think).

Street Wraith is a timewalk for 2 life which also happens to make Ichorid very consistent. Nether Shadow is substantially weaker in my view, and it is less necessary when Ichorid is so consistent. I liked Nether Shadow more in manaless lists, but those lists relied heavily upon DR->Chain Sphinx->Zealot wins -- they needed to be explosive, and thus they needed ways to get 3 creatures into play as early as possible. My strategy isn't to play for an explosive combo unless it is safe or necessary, instead, I grind out advantage. Nether Shadow is merely okay in the grind capacity. The uncounterable, instant speed timewalk of Street Wraith is simply better at creating that grind advantage.

I'd prefer to side out Careful Study instead of Street Wraith against blue decks. But, if you want to accept mulligans and come back after GY hate wipes you out, then Study is a necessary evil. Hence, Street Wraith gets taken out.

And did you miss Firestorm?

I prefer Careful Study and Breakthrough.


peace,
4eak

[Gui]

4eak, how do you feel about -4 Street Wraith, +4 Firestorm?

[kabards]

Lol. You know, I actually wanted to play the deck without sleeves - it is fun to win with cheap cards. I wanted to shuffle up that cheap deck like I'm at the kitchen table with playing a hilarious 5 color pile. I'm not sure if that is legal at tournaments though. I can see the conversation going something like: "Oh, is your japenese foil, FBB'd deck really worth $3,000? -- Here's my unsleeved pile worth $100. You killed my father, prepare..." What opponent would take you seriously with an unsleeved deck?

and also fun playing against a player with a pimp deck that still lack on playing skills.. haha! - then would be eaten by a massive hoard of zombies.

[4eak]

4eak, how do you feel about -4 Street Wraith, +4 Firestorm?

You are DDDing, so Firestorm is generally weak. Phantasmagorian handles all your needs (being even better than Firestorm) for emptying your hand, repeatedly, uncounterably, and for free. You only need discard spells after a GY wipe (from something like crypt) or for certain mulligans, but Careful Study, Breakthrough, and Cabal Therapy do fine there (I prefer blue discard as well, as I have more mana sources that available).

What Firestorm brings to the table isn't very necessary, in my view. Street Wraith makes the deck faster and more consistent. I'd rather have that. Firestorm was a bad answer to a metagame warped by MM, and it belongs in LEDless versions which don't want to DDD every single game.


peace,
4eak

[kabards]

how about your thoughts of having a bloodghast + phantasmagorian + ichorid at the same time?

[Gui]

You are DDDing, so Firestorm is generally weak. Phantasmagorian handles all your needs (being even better than Firestorm) for emptying your hand, repeatedly, uncounterably, and for free. You only need discard spells after a GY wipe (from something like crypt) or for certain mulligans, but Careful Study, Breakthrough, and Cabal Therapy do fine there (I prefer blue discard as well, as I have more mana sources that available).

What Firestorm brings to the table isn't very necessary, in my view. Street Wraith makes the deck faster and more consistent. I'd rather have that. Firestorm was a bad answer to a metagame warped by MM, and it belongs in LEDless versions which don't want to DDD every single game.

Ok, this makes sense. I was thinking of Firestorm as a backup plan when I have to mulligan or end up timewalked, but in the former, it's not a lot likely that I'll have a firestorm, and in the second, they will obviously discard firestorm with whatever.

Guess I'll have to test your exact list, then. ^^

Btw, one last question, you just side Claim against LotV. I know Claim is more versatile, but for the sakes of a meta clogged with MM, isn't Wispmare better (despite of the stupid name/picture)?

[Gui]

Something new for Dredge:

Name: Memory's Journey
Cost: 1{U}
Type: Instant
Rules Text: Target player shuffles up to three target cards from his or her graveyard into his or her library.
Flashback {G}


This card could recover narcomoebas into thin libraries for reusage... maybe a 1-of in maindecks?

[Mojeh]

@4eak
Well, I agree with your Street Wraith choice after all. I've been testing a similar list, -4 Wraith for +4 Firestorm and -1 Ichorid for +1 Citadel, and I have to say your list seems much more consistent.

@Gui
Do we really have this slot available in main deck? I guess not =S

[Vandalize]

Perhaps the most effective way to deal with Dredge nowdays is Surgical Extraction on GGT.

Stupid card :(

[4eak]

@ kabards

how about your thoughts of having a bloodghast + phantasmagorian + ichorid at the same time?

Show me the list you have in mind. In my experience, Bloodghast is too slow, win-more, and requires too much deckspace (and warps construction in general) in Dredge. There are perhaps niche metagames where it is correct to use, but I've not been convinced by Bloodghast in general.


@ Vandalize

Perhaps the most effective way to deal with Dredge nowdays is Surgical Extraction on GGT.

Surgical Extraction is merely 'okay' against dredge. Against DDD lists, it does timewalk more, and hitting Bridges or Ichorids can be quite powerful. But, it often doesn't get the job done. Ravenous Trap has been far more potent, in my experience. If generic hate is what you want, I suggest a solid mix. Instant, Artifact, and Enchantment hate makes life very hard. Therapy will be less accurate and the dredge player may be forced to either dilute their deck by playing 6-8 anti-hard cards or be less likely to have the answer if they only board in 1-2 of each answer. Enchantment hate, in particular, is something the dredge player "can do something about," but forces the dredge player into less-than-pleasing sideboarding and mulliganing decisions.


peace,
4eak

[ajfirecracker]

If generic hate is what you want, I suggest a solid mix. Instant, Artifact, and Enchantment hate makes life very hard. Therapy will be less accurate and the dredge player may be forced to either dilute their deck by playing 6-8 anti-hard cards or be less likely to have the answer if they only board in 1-2 of each answer. Enchantment hate, in particular, is something the dredge player "can do something about," but forces the dredge player into less-than-pleasing sideboarding and mulliganing decisions.


peace,
4eak

I agree on this point, but with a few caveats. I think Bojuka Bog, despite the whole sorcery-speed thing, is easily one of the best hate cards simply because it can't be Therapied, Ancient Grudge'd, Nature's Claim'ed, or anything else. Alternately, I think Leyline of the Void is quite good against most dredge builds, and if you really want to hate it out quad Leyline is probably the best bet.

One (presumably legitimate) reason people don't diversify properly is that their deck is actually set up to support one anti-graveyard card in particular, such as Trinket Mage (maindeck) + 2x Tormod's Crypt + 1x Relic of Progenitus (sideboard). Another example of this style of hate would be Wheel of Sun and Moon in Enchantress (especially builds that run Enlightened Tutor to supplement Sterling Grove).

The other point that I think pulls away from a properly diversified sideboard is the utility of the hate cards to the deck absent Dredge. Cards like Relic of Progenitus have a tendency to see play to fight Tarmogoyf, essentially generating splash hate for true graveyard strategies. A less extreme example of this is a deck that runs many methods of killing their own creatures, as Zoo sometimes does.

[Benie Bederios]

I prefer Woodfall Primus over Terastodon, because it has a little synergy with Cabal Therapy. e.g: DR Primus, blow something. Cabal Therapy on Primus, he goes to GY (add zombies), Persist triggers and bring him back for another blowing. Finally, Cabal Therapy resolves and you rip something from your foe's hand.

And you didn't add any Elephants to block.

But, if you're playing a LED list, why not a Flame-kin Zealot? He can actually finish games without passing the turn.

On the other hand Terstodon is good, when you don't have Cabal Therapy. Against control I normally used most Therapies to make sure Dread Return resolves, so I don't have any spare afterwards.

I found Flame-kin Zealot a win more in 99% of the time.

Terastodon and Primus are not really of the same kind.

Primus is a card that I would run in the mainboard in a metagame where you will have to play a mid-games and unknown metagames (although i like angel of despair better because it is black [ichorid] and it flies, and it get everything). It is a very good out to random trouble.

Terastodon would always be in my sideboard. It is good against prison-decks, mainly. The upside of the downside of the T. is that you can also generate elephants by targeting your own lands.

Angel of Despair might be a nice target too, pity I don't have it in german and I don't like the art. a 5/5 flyer might be better then a 5/5 trample.

Firstly, if you are playing LED dredge then, Sphinx+flame kin=win.

Secondly, I have been a big supporter of Primus in the board for a while now(much better than elephant man). I have been thinking of switching him to something more productive though. The metagame is filled with blue based aggro decks, where he does not shine. He is/was great versus stax/lands/countertop foundry/ monoblue control, decks that have vanished from the metagame lately. So that is where I am at right now with primus.

I have Flame-Kin Zealot in my board, for games where I must race (combo/mirror/Burn/Stax and Enchantress on the play.) But outside those decks, I really don't need the Zealot MD.

I stay on the Terstadon for now, but might turn it into Angel of Despair.

I had another question though. In testing I found Deep Analysis always a win-more. In most circumstances I needed Sun Titan/Eternal Witness to get back lands or Lion's Eye Diamond to use it. The first turn LED into Breakthrough into Deep Analysis is nice, but doesn't happen to often. I rather use LED a little more conservative and use it to pop Cephalid Coliseum's.

If I drop them I have 2 more slots to fiddle with making a total of 7. The 3 Street Wraith's aren't solid for me either. I play 2 Tireless Tribe and a Careful Study instead (like Parches list about 12 pages back.) The last 2 slots are the Dread Return targets


So for me the core is
12 Dredgers
4 Putrid Imp
4 Breakthrough
3 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Dread Return
12 Land
4 Lion's Eye Diamond

And I was thinking to add:
1 Sphinx of Lost Truths
1 Terstadon/Iona, Shield of Emeria/ Woodfall Primus/ Angel of Despair
3 Careful Study
1 Dredger (fourth Goglari Thug or Darkblast.)
1 Undiscoverd Paradise

This gives me same amount of dredgers as 4eaks build. More draw/dicard than normal LED lists, that isn't conditonal. 1 more land which is nice for hardcasting dudes. And I normally board in land anyway.

Thoughts?

[Gui]

In a hypothetical post MM ban scenario, would you rather play Phantasmagorian+Wraith or PImp + Tribes?

[(nameless one)]

In a hypothetical post MM ban scenario, would you rather play Phantasmagorian+Wraith or PImp + Tribes?

I think going back to PImp and Tribes is the way to go. Personally, I think a lot of aggro decks will make a comeback if MM does get banned. Tribe is a really great wall to stand behind against aggro.

[ajfirecracker]

In a hypothetical post MM ban scenario, would you rather play Phantasmagorian+Wraith or PImp + Tribes?

I think that's basically impossible to answer without it actually happening. I would suspect, however, that the discard-dork based lists might be fundamentally worse than the DDD lists, even in very fast metagames.

[Izor]

In a hypothetical post MM ban scenario, would you rather play Phantasmagorian+Wraith or PImp + Tribes?

Actually I think the Phantasmagorian tech can still be worth running. However, if Combo decks like TES/ANT make a comeback, I'd rather have the chance to be on the play. So the dorks might be better.

Also, the Dork build can use its anti hate more effectively. It's a pain to wait until you can DDD again after blowing up Leyline.

[Gui]

Actually I think the Phantasmagorian tech can still be worth running. However, if Combo decks like TES/ANT make a comeback, I'd rather have the chance to be on the play. So the dorks might be better.

If I recall correctly, pre-MM scenario had combo all around... A comeback looks probable

[Michael Keller]

If I recall correctly, pre-MM scenario had combo all around... A comeback looks probable

Don't hold your breath.

[4eak]

@ ajfirecracker

I agree on this point, but with a few caveats. I think Bojuka Bog, despite the whole sorcery-speed thing, is easily one of the best hate cards simply because it can't be Therapied, Ancient Grudge'd, Nature's Claim'ed, or anything else.

In KoTR+GSZ.dec, I agree that Bog is a very scary card, but that is because of the instant speed + tutoring. Outside of that deck, I think Bog is merely okay. The caveat isn't very relevant in my eyes, particularly as I'm talking about generic hate, which Bog is not (not really, even if any deck can play a land). The immunity is sweet, the sorcery speed sucks (worse than you imply). The fact that it commonly fails as cross-hate (a point you bring up about relic later) against other GY-decks leads me to believe that Bog will not be a common hate card to face.

Alternately, I think Leyline of the Void is quite good against most dredge builds, and if you really want to hate it out quad Leyline is probably the best bet.

Leyline is good because Dredge players aren't building and siding correctly. That card is a lot less scary once you know what to do. The fact that people mulligan so much for it means that you get to mulligan for answers without much penalty, and you should mulligan less than your opponent anyways, as you should be siding in 6-7 answers to 4 Leylines.

Note also that if your opponent topdecks other GY-hate cards, they remain very potent, but this isn't true for Leyline. Once you answer the first Leyline (which is usually all you see), then you flip over Ray into the GY, and subsequent Leylines do almost nothing, unlike a topdecked crypt/relic which still function against Grudge.

One (presumably legitimate) reason people don't diversify properly is that their deck is actually set up to support one anti-graveyard card in particular, such as Trinket Mage (maindeck) + 2x Tormod's Crypt + 1x Relic of Progenitus (sideboard). Another example of this style of hate would be Wheel of Sun and Moon in Enchantress (especially builds that run Enlightened Tutor to supplement Sterling Grove).

The Enchantress example is a poor one - they win on their board lock alone. They have a legit chance to win game 1, and so hate is gravy for them, not a necessity.

I will agree that some decks are more capable than others of diversifying hate. But, every deck can at least mix it up some. 2x Artifact + 2x Trap is already worlds more complicated to handle, particularly if the Dredge player doesn't know they have Traps (which I don't expect). Brainstorm agrees.

As to Vandalize's original question, I should add that playing more (quantitatively-speaking) GY-hate than has been played recently is an important part of answering dredge. I know many people who think that 2-3 pieces of GY hate is going to be enough, but it usually isn't. The odds of even seeing 1 of 2 or 1 of 3 are very low, especially for decks which don't have tutors/brainstorm.

All that said (and as a tangential point), I think most people outright underestimate and/or despise dredge. They won't take it seriously. This was the same position Merfolk had been in a year or two ago. Despite being well positioned in the metagame, like Merfolk, Dredge will still be seen as a bad, cheap deck (even if it isn't). I think people unconsciously connect the cost of a deck with its viability.


@ Gui

In a hypothetical post MM ban scenario, would you rather play Phantasmagorian+Wraith or PImp + Tribes?

This seems a reasonable hypothetical. I was shocked to see MM banned in Modern - the reasoning WotC gave shows they don't understand the card at all. So, normally I wouldn't think MM could be on the table for banning (given how FoW or any blue-card dominance excepting Mystical Tutor has rarely sparked banning interest in WotC), but now I'm wondering if their failure to understand the card might endanger it.

If MM was banned, I would be inclined to drop Wraith for Tribes (which is such a beast in a ton of matches). After a lot more practice with Phantasmagorian, I'm not sure if it should be replaced (nor how many if it was) with PImp given the banning of MM.

One of the issues is something like Izor's point. There aren't a lot of great ways to recover after GY-hate (even when you have the answer). Now, Study/Break/Therapy do a lot of work for you there, making it so that you don't have to goto 8 (which I think Izor missed), but having PImp and/or Tribe allows you to play even more consistently through hate.

ajfirecracker brings up a good point as well. The DDD build might actually be faster than the Tribe/PImp build. It plays more draw (in SW), and abuses Ichorid better (with 4 more black creatures). Because it uses fewer spells, it runs fewer lands and more gas (making it slightly faster). Also, people play incorrectly most of the time against DDD builds, electing to play when they should draw (so the resulting speed is based off your opponent's making a serious error most of the time). When I don't expect to play against MM, I'm willing to make the otherwise risky play of Break/Study with only 1 Dredger in the GY, which means that it is far, far more common to flip a good chunk of my deck over on turn 2. Without MM to worry about, I can DDD, next turn dredge, if I see a dredger, I can play a land and a 1cc draw spell (putting myself to 6 cards) without the same risks. It is difficult to tell.

Further, assuming MM was banned, we face more combo matches (as has been pointed out). We have to speed up. Although, I'm just not a fan of Dredge in a combo-filled environment. So, I'd only be playing Dredge in tournaments where I thought I wouldn't be facing faster combo decks a good portion of the time.

My guess is that DDD builds will be faster in g1 than Tribe/PImp, but are less capable of recovering almost effortlessly from GY-hate in g2/g3. To me, playing around GY-hate is more important. Given the option (which would be presented given a hypothetical banning of MM), I would be inclined to play Tribe and perhaps PImp.



peace,
4eak