@Gui: Yes, I think Firestorm is a great card. I was using a full playset maindecked before MM get banned, but I think now, without Mental Misstep, playing it is just a metagame call.
And about the Ichorid-feeding, I know about Gorians, but maybe sometimes you just don't wanna pitch them. Even with the traditional building, sometimes, I missed a black creature in my grave.
The fact is that Mental Misstep could have had just as much of a chance not getting banned than a chance it could, and it did. You weren't the only person who thought it was possible, so don't hurt yourself there.Originally Posted by Gui
I'm seeing a lot of talk about how the 'DDD' plan is still an acceptable and strong way to power the Dredge player's second turn draw-effect, and I'm really still liking Street Wraith in testing. He fuels Dredged Ichorids on turn two and is instant-speed with (technically) an uncounterable ability. For all intents and purposes, Manaless Dredge still has the ability to "go off" just as fast as traditional Dredge does, but with more consistency and being less vulnerable to counter-magic and disruption. It does, however, have issues with Leyline of the Void - which is still a narrow choice for any deck ill-suited to deal with or completely fold to graveyard-based strategies. This makes me wonder if the sideboard of Dredge is really worth over-necessitating or the main-deck is just powerful enough to do its own thing in the event a player cannot find a Leyline. Either way, the deck still can be explosive and typically wins turn two or three - just as fast as traditional Dredge but circumventing the aforementioned.
I'm still in favor of the Manaless variant. In a format filled now more than ever with an unpredictable nature and a resurgence in competitive decks aside from Storm, running a consistent engine that is less vulnerable to the horde of disruption available and the ability to sustain the Aggro and Control match-ups, I really feel this version is primed now more than ever to do serious damage in Legacy. Aether Vial-based strategies are also sure to rise again, and Dredge (of all variants) typically can blow past those decks with relative ease.
I think the power of Dread Return is also being underestimated here. Bringing back cards like Sphinx and Kelpie allow the deck to turn itself sideways in a hurry, something traditional Dredge cannot do often on turn two or three. it is more dependent on its opening hand and draw spells, and Dredging into multiple lands and draw spells just adds to the problems it faces when finding a Dredger to win. Dread Return still requires a sacrifice as part of its cost, so even if it is countered (assuming you haven't shredded thier hand already with Therapies), you're still getting Zombies in return.
I just think the consistency at this point is more critical, but I am not saying it is necessarily better than traditional Dredge.
Yeah, it's not like I'll advocate blindly for the card, I liked it pre-MM ban, and I found it useful against the nightmare matchup Merfolks was, compared to the dorks list. 'Gorian list tends to be better against Merfolks anyways, so I guess I'll try 'Gorians list against combos to see how much we lose without the two full sets of dorks.
Maybe Brainstorm is best option in the end, since it'd help against Combos more than any other card you use in the flex slot.
If you fail to explain the reason behind your choice, technically, it's the wrong choice.
Zerk Thread -- Really, fun deck! ^^
@ jin
Again, just in case you are implying otherwise, the DDD plan and PImp are not mutually exclusive. I still will DDD my first turn, and if I flip over another dredger or Phantasmagorian (great odds), then I can accept having PImp or Tribe countered (likewise with Breakthrough or Study). That's when you play PImp against blue. Against non-blue decks, I'm more willing to go land->PImp rather than DDD, but it still depends. For example, if I only have 1 land in hand, and I want to use it to cast a draw spell, and my opponent is likely packing wastelands, then I won't risk my land to play PImp. Instead, I'll wait to drop that land until I am going to cast my draw spell(s), and then I'll drop PImp.Do you think it's the right move to go back to putrid imp though? I mean, it's not like they aren't carrying FOW still.. don't you feel just the old DDD plan is just better..
Why you should, generally speaking, value PImp/Tribe is what I've already outlined:
- it helps when you mulligan (by not getting timewalked because you can't DDD for another turn)
- it helps when you are recovering from GY hate (at any stage of the game), stopping you from getting timewalked (otherwise you have to draw up to 8 cards)
- you do have a body for blocking/attacking/saccing (which is gravy)
The first 2 points are pretty important ones. They aren't important enough to cut into 3 Phantasmagorians in my view, but they are important enough to at least play some, as they mitigate your 'less than 8' card hands, which becomes more common in games 2 and 3.
As to your FoW comment, please note that for decks packing MM, Daze, and Fow, they had a ~75% chance to open with countermagic (they will be on the play, since we are DDDing). With just MM & Force or Daze and Force, they had a ~60% chance to open with countermagic. With just Force, they have a ~35% chance to have an active Force. With the banning of MM, which I'm guessing (I can look it up if we need) was far more ubiquitous than Daze, PImp/Tribe, just like your draw spells, are going to resolve more consistently. We still DDD, but we can choose not to draw up to 8 in more circumstances now (see a mulligan to 6 card hand with PImp, land, dredger - which I would still have drawn up to 8 in a MM-metagame).
Street Wraith is fine. The deck is a lot faster than most people realize - they hear "DDD" and they automatically think it will be slow (I know I once did). SW was more important in an MM-metagame, but it is less important post banning. Now, if I want draw spells 9-12, I think I prefer Brainstorm to Street Wraith (there are arguments for SW still). Try it out. Those DDD, land->Draw spell on t2 hands are extremely common.I think your list is still viable even with street wraith. I'm curious about your extra land though. Is that necessary? It feels like it'll hurt the dredging..
The extra land is a nod to playing slightly more spells (which cost mana) in the deck. Improving CC activations and your sideboarding doesn't hurt either. I can see going back to 13 in faster lists though.
@ Final Fortune
I actually had mentioned in the SCG post-tournament interview that we had tried cutting CC. I do recognize that CC is fundamentally slower. We put CC back in the deck because the card was outrageously good against Merfolk - a matchup where you often won't cast a single spell (I don't mean "resolve" - I mean "cast") until you are about to win the game. CC makes that matchup, a matchup of 12-16 counterspells and a clock to boot, far more favorable (even in the face of Wasteland). When your deck revolves around blue draw spells, CC is largely just as good as rainbow lands.If you're focusing on hybridizing DDD with land, cantrip on turn 2, I think you need to consider whether or not Cephalid Coliseum is better than a combination of Undiscovered Paradise and Brainstorm
CC gives you a critical mass of draw spells. I don't foresee its removal from the deck, even if it isn't necessary faster than the other draw spell prima facie. But, I certainly could be wrong.
That is a very interesting decklist. Given your assumption about CC, and clearly your assumption of the value of DR-Comboing, your decklist is well designed. I strongly recommend Sphinx of Lost Truths instead of Sage. I will be trying it out (w/Sphinxes).Consider for a second,
...
list
I think for those who are speed-freaks (which I am not), the chain Sphinx->FKZ package is extremely relevant. The problem is getting to 3 dudes fast enough. Unlike manaless lists which had a very early critical mass of 3 creatures, just Narco and Ichorid might not be enough.
Again, I'm not convinced removing CC is correct, nor am I convinced that DR-Comboing is correct, but if I did agree to those assumptions, I'd be inclined to build (excepting the Sphinxes) the deck just like you have.
Count me on the shortbus as well - it did take MM to help me see that.As far as why play DDD over Pimp/Tribe, I think the simple answer is DDD has always been better than Pimp/Tribe by avoiding Force of Will and/or Daze and taking the tempo loss. It just took MMS to invalidate the strategy, forcing people to investigate alternatives to realize it wasn't actually as good as people really thought it was.
@ Mandark
I agreed to his land choices specifically because of the need to consistently have rainbow lands for sideboard cards. Furthermore, with only 11 lands, CC becomes less consistent.While I think you do raise an interesting point, I'd like to hear you elaborate a bit on what, exactly, is the incentive to remove the Coliseums in this particular list, seeng's how all of the castable spells in the MD are blue. Sideboard purposes only?
@ Gui
You really love Firestorm, don't you? Outside of some tribal matches, I'm just unimpressed by the card. Brainstorm looks substantially better than Firestorm, since we are DDDing. Firestorm looks substantially worse than PImp/Tribe for recurring dredgers (particularly when you don't have enough cards to DDD; say, a mulligan or after GY-hate), which is exactly what you need in this slot if you aren't playing draw in it. The uncounterability of the 'additional cost' is less valuable now.If it's the case that you need more black creatures in that configuration (or even in a configuration with 12 castable draw spells), I'd switch back to your exactly SCG list, but with -1 Street Wraith +1 Tarnished
@ Izor
I want to agree! It has clear synergy with the DDD approach. I can't tell you how many times I've been bitten in the butt because it just wouldn't stay down on the board, but I've not tried it as of late, and I need to.I really believe that in a hybrid type of list with Phantasmagorian that mostly wants to draw first and play DDD, Undiscovered Paradise is just better than Tarnished. Tarnished is undoubtedly better in lists that want to play and drop a dork turn 1 plus activate CC turn 2. But in this type of deck it was definitely better for me than Tarnished.
The thing is that you really want to max on Dredgers when DDDing. Mulligans, even with PImp/Tribe in the deck, turn into timewalks too often. You want to see a Dredger in every opening hand. I'm actually looking to squeeze the 14th dredger in the deck (among several cards), that's how important it is to open with one. When you open with no dredger in hand but that 4th Phantasmagorian, you'll be pretty sad.I have the 4th Phantasmagorian over the 13th Dredger for now. I'll see if that works better than 13 Dredgers plus 3 Phanta.
At 12 dredgers, you have an 81% chance to see a dredger in your opening 7 (which is often a mulligan 19% of the time). Adding dredgers improves those odds, and for now, I'm pretty those odds are worth imrp
@ Osmin
If you are DDDing, and if you have phantasmagorian, you pitch it end step, otherwise pitch a dredger. For Phant, if you have Ichorids + black fodder + dredger to pitch, then phant on your opponent's end step, otherwise wait until your upkeep. If you dredge a dredger or another phant, or you happen to have pitched 2 dredgers with phant, consider going land->Draw spell.Just start reading the thread. Has a question about last builds. Let's imagine you have 8 cards in hand. How will you choose what to do: play land, play PImp and discard dredger next upkeep or just discard dredger EOT?
@ I am the brainwasher
I see two combo decks coming back: Tendrils and Spiral Tide. Spiral Tide we can certainly race. Tendrils, I am not convinced.I still need to be convinced (and really looking forward that this will happen) that this is the way to go, but atm I am way to concerned about all different sort of storm-based combo decks that you are unable to race (well, at least thats what my experience/testing in the pre MM aera had shown me, as said above, I definetly can be told better at that point) with these tweaks.
Let's be honest: A very skilled storm pilot should win MOST of the time against any build of Dredge. Bryant Cook will whip our asses most of the time. Now, obviously, some builds are better than others, and some pilots are better than others. I think you really need to ask yourself if answering Tendrils, if building to beat it, is really the way to go.
Dredge preys on Tendril's predators. I think you are doing it wrong if you go for Tendrils. That said, I think the fastest (on average) version of the deck will be 12-draw spell and DDD. And, if you want to answer Tendrils, then I'd go that direction.
Turn 3 is really as fast an average fundamental turn as you can expect in this deck. Yes, you can find great LED hands, but they are much less common than people realize (and Chants do wreck LED->DA, although not LED->CC, on the draw). That just isn't good enough against well-played tendrils combo.
@ Mojeh
I agree that PImp/Tribe is great against GY hate (as I've stated several time), but I disagree about them being more valuable than Phantasmagorian in the Tendrils combo matchup (I'm assuming you are talking about Tendrils). Your goto plan should still be DDD, land->draw against combo. It is your most consistent chance (by a long shot when you look at the math) to be explosive.In my opinion, PImp+Tribe combination is great against GY hate and possibly better than Gorian against combo, while worse against permission.
@ Parcher
While Brainstorm is never going to be as good as the other blue draw/discards, I'm not sure if it isn't worth running (I'm leaning against it). Drawing 3 cards for 1 mana might just be good enough though. You aren't using Brainstorm as other decks do, but that's fine (this deck doesn't play magic as usual anyways). It still functions as 1 mana for 3 timewalks in this deck, and it needs to be tested.Brainstorm is never going to be good. The problem with it is first, it loses all of it's ability to fix an opening hand in this deck. Second, it cannot be used for discard. And third, and most important, it doesn't actually Dredge three times. You have to return three dredgers to the top of your library, which cuts your next turn's draw down to nothing.
I'm almost certain Brainstorm allows you to Dredge 3 times (we can ask CDR if need be). You are forced to return 2 cards from your hand to your library, but those aren't necessarily going to be dredgers (Narco is nice, but uncommon). Brainstorm is a dangerous card if you fail to chain-dredge, which is a giant strike against it. You can't afford to whiff on chain-dredging unless you have Phantasmagorian and at least 2 cards in hand after Brainstorming. So, I am certainly leery of the card.
You'll need to explain how it "cuts your next turn's draw down to nothing." I'm not sure what you mean.
As you can read above, I agree that Tribe/PImp are excellent in this very capacity. I'm already running 4 PImp in the flex slots for this reason. Now, the odds of having 1 of the 3 Tribe/PImp than Phantasmagorian replaces actually on the board are pretty small, and much less common to abuse than Phantasmagorian in regular play (leaps and bounds different -- I use Phantasmagorian in most of my games, and 1 of those 3 pretty uncommonly).I do, however worry about it post-board. With more Aggro and Tribal coming back post-ban, you are going to see more Crypts, and far more Relics post-board. In comparison to the Extirpates and Extractions we've been seeing, this makes Phantasm a liability, especially in comparison to Tribe. Which combined with PImp can wholly ignore Crypt/Relic. At least against decks that have a hard time removing them.
What many people miss is that the odds of your opponent having GY hate is actually pretty low (and may be even lower if aggro/tribal decks are forced to sideboard for normal combo as well). You do want to be able to answer the strongest hands that aggro/tribal can bring, but you also need to realize that the vast majority of the time you won't need to do that (and that fact needs to factor into how we construct the deck). Those who have only 2 pieces of GY hate will only see them in their opening hand 22% of the time (not including whether or not they have the mana to cast it if it is relic). 32% for 3 GY-hate cards. 40% for 4 GY-hate cards. I rarely see others (besides myself) willing to put more than 4 GY-hate cards in their sideboard. Now, brainstorm/top improves these odds by a good bit, but Tribal and aggro don't play these cards. So, the majority of the time aggro/tribal decks are either going to mulligan heavily to get to their GY hate, keep less than optimal hands which do have GY-hate, or play without GY hate. If they don't have it, then great, we don't need to worry about recoverying. In a sizable number of games when they do have it, they've mulliganed for it, and being slower to recover is far more acceptable. It is very uncommon to see amazing aggro/tribal hands which happen to have GY-hate in them, uncommon enough that it factors into how I construct than it might for others.
I played Manaless quite a bit after NPH (in part because I think the deck is hilariously fun, but also because it was a different approach). I have a decent amount of experience with the card in dredge.Regardless, what I would seriously consider in your "flex slots" post-ban, is a set of Gitaxian Probe. It's never existed without MM, and I think it solves a lot of problems. In your case, you can chose to draw, and still make decisions after seeing their hand. It makes any in-hand Therapy insane, since you can see their hand, draw, then cast Therapy. Or, you can see their hand, cast PImp, discard your hand, and Flashback Therapy if needs be. This should help both speed, and disruption-wise against Combo. It always makes your first Therapy hit their scarce resource. Post-board, assuming your opponent forces you to play first, you can see what hate they have before choosing a line of play. If they have Daze, you do lose the ability to DDD and play it, but if you have a PImp/Tribe in hand (easy if you run 8), then it's irrelivant. And it's obviously a free Dredge in all cases.
First, the peek effect is overrrated in this deck. I rarely whiff on Therapy, and when I do, it usually means they don't have the card that I'm worried about in most cases. Combo is an exception (but I'll get to that at the end). Further, the information advantage is pretty minimal for a deck that is largely uninteractive, there are cases where it matters, but that information advantage is less valuable for this deck on average (and besides, Therapy already gives us that information in many cases). Probe's peek effect is merely 'okay' and not a major selling point to me.
What is enticing about Probe is that it is free. But, it is clearly worse than Street Wraith in this respect. SW is fodder for GGT-DR and Ichorid. SW is uncounterable (minus Stifle, obv.), which is huge. And, lastly, SW is instant, and that is very powerful, particularly when DDDing. End step discard down a dredger, you can easily SW on your opponents turn, perhaps flipping over a narco to block a Lackey or flipping Ichorid for the next turn, or flipping Phantasmagorian to pitch your hand (Ichorids and Bridges especially). Probe belongs in Manaless, but I think it doesn't deserve a place in mana'd dredge of any sort.
And, I want to point out again that "if you have a PImp/Tribe in hand (easy if you run 8)" is misleading. PImpin' ain't "easy" at all. With 10 rainbow lands and the full 8 PImp/Tribe, you have a 46% chance to see them in your opening 7, 54% in 8. Further, if you think opening with a dredger is vital, those numbers plummet, even when running 13 dredgers, to 36% in 7. That's not "easy" in the sense that you can expect it the majority of the time.
Lastly, and this is tangential, I'll admit I am more comfortable with throwing the combo matchup than most people. I don't foresee it maintaining any decent percentages in the metagame - Merfolk, CBTop, Chalice decks, and TA will always be huge predators to it - only extremely talented tendrils players can afford to play in a field prepared for tendrils. Answering Tendrils doesn't seem necessary or worthwhile to me. The work it takes to improve the matchup simply isn't worth the sacrifice in all your other matchups (which are the matchups you are metagaming to play against in the first place).
@ Hollywood
You raise good points. I'm going to be testing manaless again. And, as I said above, I'll be testing DR->chain Sphinx->Zealot package. I'm not convinced yet, but I could be.
peace,
4eak
Ah, Ancient Grudge and Nature's Claim become less consistent post-SB, you need 10 to 11 gold lands to support non-blue answers.
@4eak
I agree with Sphinx, I played with Sage for so long I type it as a matter of habit.
Another direction I was thinking of was 4xUndiscovered Paradise, 4x Oboro, Palace in the Clouds, Xx Dakmor Salvage and Bloodghast, because the bounce lands put Dredge back into DDD faster than normal lands if the cantrip is countered and have free synergy with Bloodghast. You wouldn't get a SB outside of Chain of Vapor, but shoe horning in Bloodghast might solve the problem with 3x targets for Dread Return.
Brainstorm is not only worse than other options if you brick, but unless you have a hand that has a land, Narcomoeba, and Brainstorm in it, then Brainstorm forces you to put cards that you don't want to have to dredge again back on top of your library. This is what I mean when I refer to it costing you your next draw.
Counting on your opponent not having, or not drawing hate is probably not the best way to build this deck. Regardless, the main point regarding Tribal is that in addition to them all running Relics, and usually a set, they don't actually need hate to win. Dredge does not have the strategic superiority over Tribal that it does over most decks since it's not the graveyard or the stack that is the battlefield in these matches. It is the actual Battlefield. They can all easily remove your Bridges, and flood the board with enough blockers to keep them alive until they can overwhelm you. Or, in the case of Merfolk, they have a ton of relevant disruption that can slow you down until they take over. Being able to have another creature toward DR, having an evasive attacker, or huge blocker, and being able to play through Crypt/Relic mitigates all of this. So does Firestorm, but I still feel that's a SB card.
I'm not sure how good Probe is yet either. But the "Peek" can't be overvalued when playing against Combo or Control, or post-board. Good players will sandbag hate, and if they have countermagic to back it up, you are in trouble. As far as Therapy goes, I'm probably the best there is at naming with it, and that's still not always enough. I'll take a 100% chance over any other percent every time. And against Combo, having 100% to hit thier one Tutor, High Tide, or LED is priceless,
The instant speed of SW is irrelevant, since that's all you can ever do at instant speed, or on your opponent's turn. And the counterability of Probe is irrelevant, since in mana dredge, they will always counter your discard outlet if possible. Odds are that Probe will resolve if the discard outlet does. And if it doesn't than you have to adjust your plan accordingly. DDD'ing, and then using Probe is slow, but in that case if they counter it, you can always have land, Breakthrough waiting. Which they have to account for and play around.[/QUOTE]
On the East Coast, I see a lot of Combo, especially with High Tide and TES back now. And those Tide players do run some combination of Trap and Extraction, since they know it's a bad matchup. Reanimator has also had a huge resurgance, though the banning may change that. Your only way to beat them outside of a miracle Chain, is to race. Unfortunately, I can't ignore Combo
~ Team Unicorn Motto
It's not that I love it, it's just that I switched for it, with exactly 13 dredgers, to fight against MM, and never missed the dorks. Maybe I just forgot how awesome a dork can be without MM around, but it felt like I was doing the same thing with the benefic of being uncounterable and killing T1 creatures. So I just want to test anything that is acceptable for the flex spot, that's all.
If you fail to explain the reason behind your choice, technically, it's the wrong choice.
Zerk Thread -- Really, fun deck! ^^
@ Parcher
I'm certainly not "counting" on them not having it, but the odds of them having it should factor in how to build this deck. The quality and quantity of GY-hate we expect should affect how we construct the deck. Considering the probabilities of facing GY hate is vital to figuring out the most cost-effective way to answer it. If you think otherwise, then please give me an argument.Counting on your opponent not having, or not drawing hate is probably not the best way to build this deck. Regardless, the main point regarding Tribal is that in addition to them all running Relics, and usually a set, they don't actually need hate to win. Dredge does not have the strategic superiority over Tribal that it does over most decks since it's not the graveyard or the stack that is the battlefield in these matches. It is the actual Battlefield. They can all easily remove your Bridges, and flood the board with enough blockers to keep them alive until they can overwhelm you. Or, in the case of Merfolk, they have a ton of relevant disruption that can slow you down until they take over. Being able to have another creature toward DR, having an evasive attacker, or huge blocker, and being able to play through Crypt/Relic mitigates all of this. So does Firestorm, but I still feel that's a SB card.
Also, tribal decks don't "usually" play a full "set". Please check out http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/for...?format=Legacy. A quick glance shows they probably average 2 to 2.5 pieces of GY hate (which matches my experience, FWIW).
Note again that I'm not counting on them not having it at all. I'm certainly not looking to be a glass cannon. I run 4 Grudge, 4 Claim, and 3 ray. I've always run at least 10 pieces of anti-GY hate. Believe me, I am very interested in answering it. Of course, answering it includes more than anti-GY hate (which I've made abundantly clear in my dissection of PImp/Tribe), but I'm just pointing out that I'm still concerned, even if I take a different approach to it than you do. My approach certainly could be flawed, but I highly doubtful that I'm wrong in worrying about the probabilities of facing GY hate as being a vital factor in deck construction. Granted, perhaps the best approach will be siding in the rest of the Tribes or maybe even siding Firestorm will be the way to go, I'm not sure.
While dredge doesn't have as much of an advantage over tribal decks that it does over say a deck like Team America, I find it does still have the advantage. I also think Tribal decks, on average, do need hate to win. Since I've moved to DDDing and heavier reliance on Ichorid, my merfolk match has become quite good (they can't stop DDDing most of the time, and they can't remove bridges most of the time when you play correctly). If you are playing into their disruption, then you are often doing it wrong. Goblins has limited removal, but it is a match where I literally race them before they usually have removal (and that removal costs them some serious tempo). Elves is also a race, but without removal in most cases. I think with Elesh-Norn, many tribal decks just can't keep up.
Perhaps we just have different experience with Tribal matchups (I'm betting we play pretty different decklists as well). I consider these favorable unless they have a good opening hand with GY hate, which, as I said, is fairly uncommon.
The peek effect certainly can be overvalued, you are being hyperbolic (which is not convincing). Additionally, when all things are equal, I too prefer the 100% chance over any other, but you've failed to recognize in your response (although you certainly know better) that 'all things aren't equal' and there are serious costs to attaining that 100% (which it isn't even 100% - people do counter Probe in many cases).I'm not sure how good Probe is yet either. But the "Peek" can't be overvalued when playing against Combo or Control, or post-board. Good players will sandbag hate, and if they have countermagic to back it up, you are in trouble. As far as Therapy goes, I'm probably the best there is at naming with it, and that's still not always enough. I'll take a 100% chance over any other percent every time. And against Combo, having 100% to hit thier one Tutor, High Tide, or LED is priceless,
Remember, your point was that Probe was perhaps worth running in my deck, I assume given my strategy. As such, we need to evaluate Probe and SW in that context.The instant speed of SW is irrelevant, since that's all you can ever do at instant speed, or on your opponent's turn. And the counterability of Probe is irrelevant, since in mana dredge, they will always counter your discard outlet if possible. Odds are that Probe will resolve if the discard outlet does. And if it doesn't than you have to adjust your plan accordingly. DDD'ing, and then using Probe is slow, but in that case if they counter it, you can always have land, Breakthrough waiting. Which they have to account for and play around.
The instant speed of SW is not irrelevant. I'm beginning to doubt you've played much with the card in DDD mode or in manaless dredge, where it becomes clearly better than irrelevant. You will get Ichorids and Narco's into play earlier than usual - you will squeeze out more damage and more bridge tokens than usual because you dredged in your opponent's turn. You will surprise block with Narco because of SW's instant ability sometimes. Perhaps you mean 'not relevant enough' to matter in choosing between Probe and SW, but again, I think you are wrong both from theory and my own practice (FWIW). And, again, being a black creature matters to a deck which abuses Ichorid so heavily and regularly DR's GGT -- Probe doesn't have this.
The counterability of Probe is also not irrelevent. Note that they won't counter my discard outlet as I'm not playing one before Probe! I'd play Probe first, and in the event I had a PImp, then I'd drop the land to play it. If they counter probe, then I don't drop the land, I continue DDDing. If I dropped the land and they counter or remove Pimp, then I might get stuck if I fail to chain-dredge next turn. They don't know I have PImp, and opponents will often counter Probe (which is a timewalk for me) - they might be making a mistake, but you should expect mistakes. I'm guessing you don't like that idea, I'm guessing you want to build around people playing perfectly, but that is a mistake in both play and construction.
Consider that most opponents, even when they know you are playing a deck which has no discard outlets, where you are definitely going the DDD route, will elect to play rather than draw (an obvious mistake). You should know the average chance that your opponent will misplay - that's important for both playing and building for magic. I will build around how other players play magic. That goes for GY hate, that goes for whether or not I'm DDDing by default, and that goes for the counterability of probe.
Now, getting Probe countered while DDDing is obviously not the end of the world, but it does matter. For example, in the Merfolk matchup, SW doesn't allow Cursecatcher to blow your bridges and Probe does.
Both Probe and SW give you a card for no mana, so let's compare the differences. Probe gives you peek, but at great vulnerability and at sorcery speed. SW gives you Ichorid/GGT fodder, with virtually no vulnerability and at instant speed (which improves your ability to put dudes into play on t1). I'd much rather play SW - we noticed this too many times when playing DDD-Dredge and Manaless.
I hear ya'. If your specific metagame is like this, and you are set on playing dredge (which I wouldn't), then I can totally understand why you build differently. I think your case isn't the circumstance that most people find themselves in. That's why I claim people, in general, should be more willing to throw the combo match (Also, I'm much less worried about the High tide matchup).On the East Coast, I see a lot of Combo, especially with High Tide and TES back now. And those Tide players do run some combination of Trap and Extraction, since they know it's a bad matchup. Reanimator has also had a huge resurgance, though the banning may change that. Your only way to beat them outside of a miracle Chain, is to race. Unfortunately, I can't ignore Combo
peace,
4eak
On Brainstorm, it's better than people give it credit for.
It draws more cards than CS, and you can put cards back to library with the intention of getting them to graveyard.
Doesn't even have to be a Moeba, can be Ichorids/bridges you were holding, or just put dredgers back. No big deal.
I mostly used it against Combo, as side, where I had to get therapies/DR fast to win. It works. Don't know if it's the best for the spot, but it works.
If you fail to explain the reason behind your choice, technically, it's the wrong choice.
Zerk Thread -- Really, fun deck! ^^
Hey 4eak i think your deck was great for the MM metagame, but we shouldn't be so reliant on DDD now. DDD is great when you must use it, but we shouldn't be depedent on it now that we can cast one mana spells again. Also, relic will probably make the comeback over extirpate now that dredge will be the GY deck of choice, me thinks reanimator had it's moment. Relic makes DDD tougher. Might as well pithing needle relic rather change your whole deck, now that we can cast pithing needle again.
On the topic of firestorm. I have been liking darkblast more. Can use one or two in the maindeck with no regrets. It keeps up against the curve of tribal decks, where as firestorm is a one and done deal. Also, darkblast cares less than firestorm if it's countered, and is not dead in your graveyard.
Your running good sideboard cards is just good sense. It has nothing to do with the point that PImp and Tribe are both able to for the most part, invalidate Crypt/Relic if they remain in play. Basically negating the neccessity of cards like Grudge against direct hate. That doesn't mean that you shouldn't run those cards. But it does mean that PImp falls within your deck's intitial strategy, while still allowing strategy against opponent's cards that do nothing to help their deck's strategy. That is far more efficient than running a card like Phantasm. Where DDD'ing it after a first turn Crypt seems less than great.
Against Goblins, if they have a first-turn Lackey, you CAN'T race them. You can pray that your Street Wraith will get you a blocker, but that's it. Unless they have some of their limited removal, they can't stop you from blocking and kiling their Lackey, while still keeping a creture to use for DR and/or a discard outlet. They also have the most ways of any common deck to remove bridges.
Elves, also, are hard to race in certain situations. If they run Glimpse, you have to Therapy it, or you will likely lose. But even so, they can often gum up the board long enough to "go off". Both these decks are cold to Norn,and for the most part, Firestorm, but those take a little more luck and time to effect. The Discard Dorks are more immediate.
First, adding a +1/+1 to GGT is never relevant. And running PImp+8 Dredgers gives you enough Ichorid food. This has been the same for 4+ years. But you're right when you say that I meant that the instant-speed isn't relevant enough to include Wraith over other options. And I'll dance a jig if people counter Probe in the first two turns, unless they've seen my hand.
This makes no sense. If you cast Probe, and they counter it, you've time walked yourself since you have seven cards. That's on your DDD plan.
If you cast Probe first and are planning for PImp, and then play PImp and both resolve, you've just lost a free dredge at the cost of seeing your way was clear to cast PImp. That's worth it, but only if you're not on the DDD plan. Anyone who sees you draw to eight, and lead with Probe before even a land, and counters it (unless they have Daze+Force+), is a moron. Unless they know you're playing Manaless. You have a now discard outlet to slam down, and hope you hit a Therapy to guarantee the win next turn.
I think the opinion difference here might be I'm used to playing against people who know what they're doing. I can't win by betting on others making mistakes. If that plan works for you, which you mention several times that you expect when playing and constructing, then it must be nice.
This isn't the same as Manaless, so I don't know if there's any real correlation. And I again doubt the vulnerability of Probe in a MM-less world. But again, PImp and Tribe improve your ability to put dudes into play on turn one pretty well too. And if your opponent keeps countering your Probe, you've got a good chance of resolving them post-ban as well.
~ Team Unicorn Motto
@Parcher: So what list are you proposing?
I'm not.
I suggested two things.
1. With the change I expect in the meta, that Tribe and PImp will now be better than Phantasm and LED. This due to both the ban of MM, and due to the fact that they are better than Phantasm and LED against GY sweepers. And that I expect these sweepers to significantly supplant the meta hate that has been prevelant in the MM meta. That being mainly Extraction in Blue, and Extirpate in Black decks.
2. Removing LED slows the deck against the Combo decks I expect to pick up in the post-ban meta. I wanted to suggest Probe to both speed the deck for free, and give better decision trees against Combo.
I'd expect running a list like most of the standard LED-less. Probably exchanging Study for Probe. With MM gone, sixteen discard outlets will probably be enough. That is, if Probe is good enough to DDD with as well. It seems decent, but in that case losing LED and/or Study as a discard outlet makes Coliseum weaker on turn two. The only strength of Study is it's versitility, but that alone might make it better. I don't know yet.
~ Team Unicorn Motto
@ joemauer
I used to agree with you (this was before MM existed). It took MM for me to really, honestly try the DDD approach. Now that it is gone, I'm still quite pleased to keep the DDD approach.Hey 4eak i think your deck was great for the MM metagame, but we shouldn't be so reliant on DDD now. DDD is great when you must use it, but we shouldn't be depedent on it now that we can cast one mana spells again.
I've already outlined in the past two pages why I disagree with you, particularly here. DDDing is a very consistent approach. I think the math should be enough, but if it isn't, I'm hoping your experience will match my own.
I've played against it quite a bit now in DDD-mode. It isn't as scary as you'd think though. 1st, they need a first turn relic (which I've already pointed out above is something you should bet against). 2nd, Phantasmagorian plays very nicely around it (pitch 3 in response). 3rd, I don't have to DDD, in the few cases I do run against t1 relic (which is what is bad for DDD) without Phantasmagorian, I can almost always choose to move back to playing land and spells normally. I generally run more (or in some cases, just as many) Grudges than they run Relics - I will blow them up in many cases. If I don't have the grudge, then I can certainly choose to use Careful Study, Breakthrough, Therapy in some cases (doubles of a dredger), or 1 of my 4 PImps.Also, relic will probably make the comeback over extirpate now that dredge will be the GY deck of choice, me thinks reanimator had it's moment. Relic makes DDD tougher.
I think Grudge is much stronger.Might as well pithing needle relic rather change your whole deck, now that we can cast pithing needle again.
@ Parcher
I think we have seriously different experiences with Dredge (I've played Dredge decks since the mechanic came out, just as you have). As to the value of PImp/Tribe, to how Tribal matchups work, to how to answer GY hate, we clearly disagree. Your points are experiential and anecdotal, and if theoretical arguments are not your cup of tea, then there's not much I can say to it besides appealing to my own experience (which differs from yours, clearly). Experience, even my own, is something I've come to doubt (I've ample evidence for why we should).
We also are forced to agree to disagree on the skill level of opponents. Perhaps all your opponents knew what they were doing and none of mine did not (I've played magic around the country and in Thailand). I don't know what to say; I think mistakes are really common.
It makes perfect sense. Again, remember DDDing, as a default strategy, and the flex slots of my decklist were the context for this discussion. Timewalking in DDD mode occurs when you've riskily spent resources and didn't dredge a dredge. It does happen. Let me demonstrate why my strategy doesn't result in getting timewalked, and your strategy does timewalk it self sometimes.This makes no sense. If you cast Probe, and they counter it, you've time walked yourself since you have seven cards. That's on your DDD plan.
T1: Discard down from 8
T2: Dredge. If you dredge a dredger/phant, then you would actually cast Probe. You would never cast probe unless you had a dredger. Hence, if and when they counter probe, you pass the turn at 7 cards with a dredger in the GY.
T3: Dredge - congrats, you now have 8 cards in hand. Assume you didn't dredge a dredger, well, that's okay, you still can DDD.
T4: Dredge, etc.
Notice, there is no timewalk. Now, see how your proposed strategy works in DDD mode (which was the whole point of our Probe discussion):
T1: Discard down from 8
T2: Dredge. Land->PImp, PImp is countered. You have 6 cards. If you probe now and you don't dredge a dredger, then you will be timewalked. Assume probe resolves, Dredge. Assume you didn't dredge a dredger. You end the turn with 6 cards.
T3: Draw. 7 cards in hand, and no PImp or dredger in the GY.
T4: Draw. You just got timewalked. 8-cards in hand, you can now start DDDing again.
I hope that makes more sense. Perhaps I've misunderstood your point entirely though, so let me know.
peace,
4eak
@Parcher: I am inclined to take your line of thought, it seems this build is the safest at the moment.
@4eak: While I like Parcher's point, I have to say I am quite impressed with your math. DDD seemed slow for me all the time, but you showed me otherwise. I'm gonna test your list and the 12 discard list as well.
I still like and have success with my list. It does it all ddding, not ddding and going for the win. I think its best feature is its reliabillity and abbillity to adapt. 12 dredgers 4 pimp 4 tribe 4 breakthrough 4 c study 4 bridge 2 d.r. 4 theropy 4 moeba 3 ichorid 4 gemstonemine 4 city of brass 4 cep
hlid 1 citadel 2 undiscuverd. Sideboard 4 firestorm 3 pithing needle 1 grudge 3 lovd 1 angel of disspair 1 ichorid 1 elesh norn 1 blazing archon. Iv tryed all diffrent types of dredge including 4eaks i just dont like them.
@4eak: Your math segment was fun.
I still believe casting spells are your best bet right now, especially if fast combo starts to make a comeback. Imp/tribe followed by breakthrough or bs/winds of change helps keep up with combo.
I like ancient grudge more than pithing needle. I lately have been playing a two color LED list which has no access to grudge :( but pithing needle has it's moments. When going off pithing needle shuts of relic before rather than half way through. You lose less of your graveyard that way. Outside of that needle is easier to cast. I agree grudge is better though.
Unless your meta will be filled with blueish aggro control decks then I think DDDish deck won't be too great. I as well as others suspect storm combo decks to at the very least be playable again.
I believe LED dredge is the best in a meta with storm. It has a much better chance versus storm decks than LEDless. I found very few cons to the LED version. If you can think of some cons to the LED version please let me know, don't just throw less consistent jargon at me. I would like to know some real cons to the LED version.
@gamer4life: Holy Sh... How should anyone read that decklist?
12 Dredgers
4 Putrid Imp
4 Tireless Tribe
4 Breakthrough
4 Careful Study
4 Bridge from Below
2 Dread Return
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Narcomoeba
3 Ichorid
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
4 Cephalid Coliseum
1 Tarnished Citadel
2 Undiscovered Paradise
///
4 Firestorm
3 Pithing Needle
1 Ancient Grudge
3 Leyline of the Void????
1 Angel of Despair
1 Ichorid
1 Elesh Norn
1 Blazing Archon
looks like a pretty normal "older" list with a strange board to me =P
Other than that I feel that DDD is the way to go. I played Manaless the last days, and really got convinced that it's the best approach. The only thing that can timewalk you in the DDD-plan is mulliganing, and this should happen not that often. IMO there is an higher probability that my opponent has Daze / Fow than that I am forced to mulligan cuz of no Dredgers.
Maybe Brainstorm is a good approach here, because it draws 3 and we still want to be as fast as possible. Draw 3 > Draw 2 [comparing Brainstorm VS Study here] because I assume we have already DDD'ed a Dredger. If we follow that logic, than what about Winds of Change? It's also a "draw-spell" as big as Breakthrough. Meaning we always DDD and then draw and dredge as much and as fast as possible.
If we miss PImp / Tribe for g2/3 against Relic, maybe we have space for them in the SB? Old LED Dredge [Parcher's List] played Tribe in the board to grind out g2/3, so why we don't try that and total rely on DDD g1? Also, Relic is the only hate that totally destroys DDD and many decks don't want to run Relic because they need their own grave for Goyf/Knightish things...
so, in short terms -> imo DDD > PImp/Tribe
Kenjawn, Mutator of Cells
:16:- (See, now Erratic Explosion's a deck)
Legendary Creature - Horror
Haste, Hexproof, Double Strike, Trample
Kenjawn, Mutator of Cells is indestructible.
Permanents you control can't be sacrificed or copied.
Whenever Kenjawn, Mutator of Cells attacks, defending player gets liver cancer (This effect doesn't end at end of turn.)
13/13
Winds of Change, on the surface, seems better than Brainstorm considering it draws 6 deep; I wonder whether or not it can be exploited in a LED list for risky all ins?
As far as whether or not Lion's Eye Diamond and Phantasmagorian are better than Putrid Imp and Tirleless Tribe, I think that's entirely the wrong question. Lion's Eye Diamond and Phantasmagorian are clearly better than Putrid Imp and Tireless Tribe game one, we need to be asking ourselves in what combination should we be playing Lion's Eye Diamond and Phantasmagorian MD with Putrid Imp MD/SB and Tireless Tribe SB to maximize the EV of the "busted shit" game 1 and then SB into a more stable build game 2.
We have a lot of SB space for optimization if we cut the cute shit.
Winds of Change, on the surface, seems better than Brainstorm considering it draws 6 deep; I wonder whether or not it can be exploited in a LED list for risky all ins?
As far as whether or not Lion's Eye Diamond and Phantasmagorian are better than Putrid Imp and Tirleless Tribe, I think that's entirely the wrong question. Lion's Eye Diamond and Phantasmagorian are clearly better than Putrid Imp and Tireless Tribe game one, we need to be asking ourselves in what combination should we be playing Lion's Eye Diamond and Phantasmagorian MD with Putrid Imp MD/SB and Tireless Tribe SB to maximize the EV of the "busted shit" game 1 and then SB into a more stable build game 2.
We have a lot of SB space for optimization if we cut the cute shit.
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
