OZMG !!!! Control players might have to play <gasp> artifact / enchantment removal! Ohs mys god! They won't have decks of Brainstorms and pure gas? What will they do.Originally Posted by paK0
Do any of you people remember a time when control decks played 3-4 disenchant main? Probably not.
It's not implied. One page back, it was said explicitly. And I would argue that it is simple. It's different. That doesn't make it simple. It has good match ups and bad match ups, just like other decks. It doesn't have complex sequences like a combo deck, but it has the same resource/card/mana management issues other decks have. The same metagaming issues go into deck building.
There is a huge bias against aggro from all sorts of people. You'll see it everywhere. If you don't see it, it's probably because you consider Zoo simple. I assure you that both Control and Aggro decks have their own complexities that are subtle at first, but become more obvious the more you play them. Zoo v Zoo is complicated. Knowing what to fetch, with what, when is complicated. Even if it looks simple, it can be much less so. I'm not saying that it is more or less complicated than knowing when to Brainstorm, what to put back, when to shuffle is not complicated. It is. But there is a ton of bias against Zoo. And this thread is full of it. I like Zoo. I like being aggressive. That doesn't make me better or worse than a control player who likes being controlling. Just different.
Sorry if I've been harsh, but it gets old seeing it everywhere that Zoo doesn't take skill.
Tom? Is that you? I thought you were going to go work on DnD?
Playing 3-4 disenchants is most certainly no longer viable maindeck. However, it might be viable to play pithing needle as a 2 of or something similar.
I think Engineered Explosives is your best bet. Needle is fine if you're playing Enlightened Tutor (which is the nuts anyways).
Lord of the Chalice
Stompy Discord: https://discord.gg/6cesvkz
No you did not get that right (but I do like to play control^^)
I'm also not saying that everyone who plays Merfolk is an idiot (if it sounded like that sry). To play at high level you have to be pretty good, regardless of which deck you play.
But were talking about the mid skill level here (which 98% of the sourcers are, weather they admit it or not). If the only thing you ask yourself before you cast a spell is "Can I pay for that" than Merfolk and Zoo will most likely carry you further than any control or more complex combo deck will.
It just sucks when your opponent goes "Vial go" and you know the game is basically over (A little exaggerated, but you get the point).
Maybe I'm wrong and the banning combined with "new" decks of the last weeks/months will create a more fun format, but until I'm certain of that I stick to my point that the banning was a mistake.
We had Maveric for those who liked to smash face, NO RUG for Aggro control, BUG for either full control or Team America style and Dredge as combo. We had a good choice in every Archetype and all of them were highly interactive, exept maybe Dredge, but it was ok since EVERY deck has a fair shot of beating it if it wants to. I just think this mix has more to offer than the one we had before MMS.
The problem with EE is it is often too slow against vial. Well, mostly just too slow against vial in merfolk. It's pretty decent everywhere else. I did find etutor great sideboard strategy to counter most unfair strategies.
- Which is ironic since NO RuG killed you in 5 turns sometimes.
- Do you think I am a d-bag?God this post is amazing. I used to be that pompous d-bag, too :(.
- It's relatively simple compared to most decks.
- Just because I consider zoo simple doesn't mean I have a bias against it.There is a huge bias against aggro from all sorts of people. You'll see it everywhere. If you don't see it, it's probably because you consider Zoo simple.
I will imply it.
This is why I can lend out zoo to the newbies and kids and they can go 4-0 with it right? (more than once)
Control requires more skill and knowledge of the game than aggro.
A founding member of Team Bluff the Lotus - Bringing the crazy from Bob's Baseball Dugout
Maybe you shouldn't be playing a deck that folds to a relatively common 1 mana artifact?
Maybe decks so fragile that they lose to that 1 mana artifact shouldn't be competitive.
Also, what is the deal with people abbreviating Mental Misstep as "MMS". How hard is it to know the name of a card?
Call me crazy, but I don't believe control actually requires more skill to play than aggro. Aggro has a much lower skill entry point, but once you reach a certain point they become pretty even. Knowing how fast you need to go with aggro is vastly determined by your knowledge of the meta, which is similar to what kind of hands you can keep with control (knowing if its too slow to get you to 'stablization' point).
The problem here is that if you don't play a deck so fragile that they lose to 1 mana artifacts, they lose to either one mana cats, or one mana dark rituals. So you get to chose and then pray, which I find to be extremely disheartening.
lol... skill comes when you Misstep my Nacatl and then I cast a Ęther Vial...
The Control players skills is so much different, they project their own life vs hits as resource/time needed in favor for them to gain control, the skill is understanding and knowing what your playing against so it comes down to should I Misstep your Nacatl or allow it to stand and if I did could I afford your second threat? Then again baiting/protection seem like a lost art.
Like the guy who countered my (desperation and nearly laughing) attempt to stifle his Mishra's Factory activation by hard casting Force of Will? Then promptly made top 4. Please. Stop it. Even better you can fix bad keeps and poor resource management with Brainstorm. Combat is far simpler then managing a KotR and other men. Get off your EOT-FlashInBatterskull horse.
We need more people like this guy. Who needs diversity anyways?
Believe me now? To be fair, it did take a whole page to get those replies.
Tom? Is that you? I thought you were going to go work on DnD?
This is a direct quote from Goblins thread:
That's not propesterous but being able to counter and defend against such a cheat engine is. I guess...
As someone who have been playing magic since 1998 and closely following Legacy since its inception I want to say again, that Mental Misstep meta was more balanced than before. I've seen both Zoo, Merfolks and Maverick beat all those boogie man blue decks. I've seen combo decks like Hivemind and Dredge crush all kinds of decks. And I've seen control players who missed having actual blue control in the format punishing unskilled players.
If UW SFM decks occupied a great deal of top 8 in SCG open series it's not the fault of MM, it's the fault of netdecking spikes. Also people missed playing actual blue control and enjoyed utilizing all forms of it. After another 3 months players would have realized that UW SFM was not that strong at all and having a decent control deck in the format (or more than one and not just CounterTop) is totally normal.
Around the years when Randy Buehler joined Wizards, they started concentrating on nerfing blue because it was already too good (he was and still is my favorite player of all times with those blue decks :). It's the same policy in action. If I'm not mistaken Vial came out a little after that too, just to invalidate counterspell decks.
Well some people enjoy playing counterspells and control decks. Even then we get crushed by hordes of creatures. But it's the fun of playing that tight defense game to see if you can stop that offense. I've argued about the same things around 1999-2000 when I Force Spiked Mother of Runes and Goblin Lackeys and I'm arguing about the same things now. People who like turning guys sideways and winning while admiring the art of their favorite critter won't be able to accept that foiling that plan is also a part of this game and what makes this game fun and challenging. Unfortunately Wizards/DCI shows that they won't support this and even in an eternal format, simpler aggro strategies will be kept overpowered compared to control (which gets crushed by aggro in its strongest form anyways, with or without Mental Misstep - see Zoo vs UW, Zoo vs Team America, Zoo vs you name it blue mathcups).
The U/W Stoneblade vs. Zoo matchup (according to the last four Legacy opens before Misstep ban) was 64% in U/W Stoneblade's favor. The NO RUG vs. Zoo matchup was damn close to 50/50. I'm beginning to think that you are talking out of your ass sir. If blue got "crushed by pure aggro even with Misstep" we wouldn't have seen top 16s at opens with 13-14 blue decks.
Source: http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/l...acy_Opens.html
Lord of the Chalice
Stompy Discord: https://discord.gg/6cesvkz
I was sad to hear that misstep got banned, because I deluded myself into thinking that misstep was stopping people from playing storm combo and high tide quite as much. I recently played against high tide twice in a 5 round tournaments, both rounds going to time and resulting in draws, and that meant I didn't place, so I was excited at a card which would dissuade people from making that happen to me again.
Honestly, though, people don't play high tide very often because everyone bitches when they do. And people don't play storm combo, because they suck at it too much (myself included).
I played a couple decks specifically designed to capitalize on the prevalence of mental misstep (aggro loam with chalices, cascade/living end) and did well with them, and then played Goyf/KotR + cheap counterspells.dec, walking into all kinds of MMSs, and also did well. I don't think the presence or absence of MMS really changes all that much, in general. Metagaming still works. No decks were ruined by the banning of MMS. Basically, I'm just out the $12 my playsets of the card cost. No biggie.
Aether vial can be really good, when your opponent has a good curve of goblins or merfolk to throw out at you every turn, and you can't stop the vial, and you can't get card advantage out of EE or Wrath or something. It can also suck, when you topdeck it late game or you have vial and too many lands, or too many 3 drops or whatever. People are playing Ancient Grudge more, which is good against Batterskull and other random stuff. Point is--Aether Vial is totally fair, and losing MMS probably isn't a huge deal either way.
I will be surprised to see counterbalance do well again, though. It hasn't been around much for a long time now.
Yet, as you say this, blue decks dominated Top8s in many, many tournaments.
So you are implying that is the way to go?
Also, I have never seen Zoo dominating any Top8 in any tournament in the last 5 years.
And yes, Mother is strong, as is Vial, Lackey and Brainstorm. Welcome to Legacy.
If Vial is such a bother for your decks, play maindeck answers. Vial is a 1 mana artifact that needs time to be effective. And creatures. Also, creatures are vulnerable to removal. As are artifacts.
Also Dredge, with dedicated hate and a little playskill is a perfectly playable matchup. And yet I have to hear a Dredge player whining about graveyard hate
I still do not understand why counter-based decks should be all over any other playable deck in the format.
Aggro, overpowered? It's just a viable strategy. As combo is. Control is there to find the answers, and I find it right that it should not be easy, by the concept itself of control.
It's quite odd how Wizards can say Mental Misstep makes blue control stronger and Counterbalance sucked... I'm still failing to see this "making blue control stronger argument"
Anyway, I'm happy MM is legal in Vintage, although I currently dont play the format, but since I've been playing EDH I was wondering if DCI raised the vintage deck size to 100 cards min that maybe the format would be a little more deverse. (Has anybody consider a 100 vintage format?)
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