The September 20th 2011 Banned / Restricted List Update Reaction Thread

[DragoFireheart]

If Æther Vial was indeed pushing out control decks the way Misstep pushed out traditional combo decks these past four months, why was it absent in the poll in the B/R List speculation thread, yet Sensei's Top was the number one vote-getter, and Counterbalance number four? Why did the top eight of Grand Prix Columbus feature two control decks— 4c Counterbalance and a dedicated BUG Landstill build— yet only one Æther Vial deck?

- Because aggro deck players are, quote, "morons"? Because control players are "intelligent and socisticated people"? Or maybe the people with those decks were just better/luckier players?

[dragonwisdom]

"One idea that was floated was creating a similar card that could be played in nonblue decks. When Phyrexian mana was designed, it was an opportunity to create such a card. R&D wanted a card that could help fight combination decks, and could also fight blue decks by countering cards such as Brainstorm. Clearly printing a card like this has a lot of risk, but there is also the potential for helping the format a lot. The risk is mitigated, because if it turns out poorly, the DCI can ban the card." wotc reasoning for the banning.

If misstep were red (yes, there is a thread on this already), then it might not have been banned. And maybe 3 life is more fair.

blue - can fight combo by it's nature
black - discard
Only two colors can reliably fight combo main board

Mistep should have been printed in another color. That is the design flaw. If it were in another color, it MIGHT not have been banned.

white - hate bears
green = teague
red - red blast I guess

[joemauer]

After years we finally have a format where control players can actually play a normal game.

Now its back to: "Have a FoW? No? Vial, go, cya in g2"

When you did have mental misstep, how did you stop merfolk players who had Mental Missteps of their own AND aether vial?

[Goaswerfraiejen]

Can you not understand the difference between 65% and 19%?

MM was omnipresent and warped the format. Vial is a good card for aggro decks and is played in them. It doesn't destroy decks but rather enables them, something that MM did not do.

My post had nothing to do with the numbers--one can't quarrel with those. Incidentally, I've realized that I was conflating Draener's post with xereth's response to your earlier post (which I in turn conflated with Oibade's earlier post, re-quoted on page 18). Apologies for the confusion, everyone.

Nonetheless, it's worth pointing out that many of the arguments being made can easily be made of other cards. Accordingly, when someone like you pops along and says that "Maybe you shouldn't be playing a deck that folds to a relatively common 1 mana artifact?", or "Maybe decks so fragile that they lose to that 1 mana artifact shouldn't be competitive", it's only fair to point out the hypocrisy. After all, maybe you shouldn't be playing a deck that folds to a relatively common counterspell for 1cc spells. Or maybe decks so fragile that they lose to that 1-mana counterspell shouldn't be competitive. If you do not buy these latter assertions, then you cannot turn around and maintain your previous assertions as they stand. An argument against the one is an argument against the other.

The arguments made comparing Mental Misstep's effectiveness against combo decks to Æther Vial's effectiveness against control decks are illogical. If Æther Vial was indeed pushing out control decks the way Misstep pushed out traditional combo decks these past four months, why was it absent in the poll in the B/R List speculation thread, yet Sensei's Top was the number one vote-getter, and Counterbalance number four? Why did the top eight of Grand Prix Columbus (occurring in August of 2010) feature two control decks— 4c Counterbalance and a dedicated BUG Landstill build— yet only one Æther Vial deck? Why was the day two metagame breakdown at said Grand Prix 16 CounterTop, 10 Merfolk, 10 Goblins, 7 Landstill, 1 UB Thopter/Sword (and that's not counting the ambiguous 16 Bant, 4 BUG, 3 RUG, 2 Enlightened Tutor, 1 Stiflenaught)?

Two things are worth pointing out:

1.) Since you mentioned logic, I should point out that your argument is an instance of the fallacy called the 'argumentum ad populum'.

2.) The poll in that thread was created 25/08/2009 and has been closed for quite some time. The metagame has undergone several major shifts since then. Also note that Mental Misstep isn't on the poll either, obviously, yet it seems clear that it would have won that poll had it been held last week instead of two years ago.

It's also worth pointing out that it's relatively easy to push out certain decks in the short term, especially when a card is new--this can be as much the result of popularity as maladaption or outright dominance. Hive Mind was also pushed out of popularity for the last month or two, but it wasn't really any less viable than it is now, or even than it was when it was popular.

In any case, I don't necessarily disagree that Aether Vial was not single-handedly responsible for control's demise; likewise, I would not agree that Mental Misstep was single-handedly responsible for combo's brief dip. It's surely a point of agreement, however, that these cards contributed to these effects. Now, I happen to think that both cards are fair, and am happy with their presence in the format. Nevertheless, when we start throwing random claims about why Misstep was broken around, we should take care to ensure that we aren't shovelling the very same shit on all the good cards in the format.

[joemauer]

In any case, I don't necessarily disagree that Aether Vial was not single-handedly responsible for traditional control's demise; likewise, I would agree that Mental Misstep was single-handedly responsible for storm combo's quick demise. It's surely a point of agreement, however, that these cards contributed to these effects. Now, I happen to think that both cards are fair, and am happy with their presence in the format. Nevertheless, when we start throwing random claims about why Misstep was broken around, we should take care to ensure that we aren't shovelling the very same shit on all the good cards in the format.

Had some stuff to fix there for you.

[KevinTrudeau]

@Goaswerfraiejen- I think I got hung up in your backing of Draener's most recent statement (which I have now come to understand was unintentional conflation), because I am finding myself in complete agreement with everything in your last post aside from counterpoint two, in which my use of a dated poll and statistics from a large-scale tournament from separate adjacent years was indeed relevant by illustrating the fact that control archetypes had not only coexisted with Vial in multiple metagames, but had been very healthy. However, from what I gather, Vial was just a superficial example, so the argument is pretty much moot.

Just to clarify my position on the banning— Mental Misstep shouldn't have been banned because the general Legacy metagame with Misstep hadn't reached its end behavior yet due to only being four months old, and therefore, couldn't be adequately assessed. The metagame was also not necessarily unhealthy enough in its current state to warrant a banning.

[dontbiteitholmes]

"One idea that was floated was creating a similar card that could be played in nonblue decks. When Phyrexian mana was designed, it was an opportunity to create such a card. R&D wanted a card that could help fight combination decks, and could also fight blue decks by countering cards such as Brainstorm. Clearly printing a card like this has a lot of risk, but there is also the potential for helping the format a lot. The risk is mitigated, because if it turns out poorly, the DCI can ban the card." wotc reasoning for the banning.

If misstep were red (yes, there is a thread on this already), then it might not have been banned. And maybe 3 life is more fair.

blue - can fight combo by it's nature
black - discard
Only two colors can reliably fight combo main board

Mistep should have been printed in another color. That is the design flaw. If it were in another color, it MIGHT not have been banned.

white - hate bears
green = teague
red - red blast I guess

I think it's pretty much agreed upon that if Mental Misstep was meant to be an answer for combo available to non-blue decks it should have said counter target instant or sorcery cmc=1. Non-blue decks do need an answer to combo and Misstep was the perfect answer and at just the right power level in that role and that's why I will miss it, but countering 1cmc creatures is pretty irrelevant to fighting combo and that part made it easy for every blue deck to 4x MD Misstep without a second thought, which ended up weakening most of the decks it was originally designed to help by giving blue decks a really good answer from turn 1 on to aggro creatures/Lavamancer/Vial. Oh well, hopefully they will put out a fixed version in the next block.

The actual color of Misstep is irrelevant except that is really only makes sense as a Blue card or maybe Red if it only countered instants.

[Lemnear]

Maybe you shouldn't be playing a deck that folds to a relatively common 1 mana artifact?

Maybe decks so fragile that they lose to that 1 mana artifact shouldn't be competitive.

Also, what is the deal with people abbreviating Mental Misstep as "MMS". How hard is it to know the name of a card?

I see where you come from with this mindset. Having auto-loss against vial/Nacatl/lackey is ok but if it's Sensei's Diving Top, Misstep or LED you call for a ban istead? Fantastic example of IMPS...

Control should maindeck specific hate against aggro but if combo is big in the meta Cannonist maindecking into aggro shells is "to narrow" and instead there's whinning to banhammer LED?

By this logic I think Goblins deserved it's death in the face of Misstep. Refusing to play Warren Instigator but praying for Lackey/Vial to do the Job sounds very promissing. Guess what happend? Complaining that misstep killed Goblins until misstep got the axe!

[Pippin]

You are wrong here... Aether vial warps the format is nearly exactly the same fashion as mental misstep, but with the decks it pushes out are control instead of combo.

Yet just before Mental Misstep printing decks that were showing great results and were pushed to tier 1 status were... Landstill variants (UBGx shell). You know, ones that could deal with that "format warping" aether vial.
I'm 100% sure this will be possible again, with addition of UW variants thanks to Stoneforge + Mystic interaction against aggro. Only thing that will be different is that one will have to be a little bit more innovative/protective instead of just slamming down Stoneforge like a chimp while being protected by free Mental Misstep from most of format's removal.

That is a good thing, control shouldn't just freely beat aggro...

[xfxf]

Edit for double post. Sorry.

[Lancer]

"One idea that was floated was creating a similar card that could be played in nonblue decks. When Phyrexian mana was designed, it was an opportunity to create such a card. R&D wanted a card that could help fight combination decks, and could also fight blue decks by countering cards such as Brainstorm. Clearly printing a card like this has a lot of risk, but there is also the potential for helping the format a lot. The risk is mitigated, because if it turns out poorly, the DCI can ban the card." wotc reasoning for the banning.

If misstep were red (yes, there is a thread on this already), then it might not have been banned. And maybe 3 life is more fair.

blue - can fight combo by it's nature
black - discard
Only two colors can reliably fight combo main board

Mistep should have been printed in another color. That is the design flaw. If it were in another color, it MIGHT not have been banned.

white - hate bears
green = teague
red - red blast I guess

I'm not too sure, if the argument was based upon pitchable to FOW then players would been bitching about that too... But the only argument I'd seen was how the card was able to counter a 1cc spell without an additional loss besides 2 life and it make the card too easy (ie brainless) to use.

Therefore even if Mental Misstep was purple players would be pushing for it's ban.

There was no designflaw here, the only problem is with Mental Misstep is the GAMBLERS. The game has taken to the level of POKER and POKER players hate chaos, the card creates chaos because the sure bet (the 1cc spell) is an easy target, therefore anything can happen, the other problem with POKER players is that they lack innovation so they then copy the best known strategy, this is why the deck pool seemed so small. Players that dont see Mental Misstep as a problem dont see this game as a poker game.

As for myself I see Mental Misstep as a challenge, just like Force of Will.

[xfxf]

@GoaswerfraiejenJust to clarify my position on the banning— Mental Misstep shouldn't have been banned because the general Legacy metagame with Misstep hadn't reached its end behavior yet due to only being four months old, and therefore, couldn't be adequately assessed. The metagame was also not necessarily unhealthy enough in its current state to warrant a banning.

Exactly. The imbalance in SCG Top8s, as I said before, isn't an indication of brokennes of MM but an aundance of netdecking spikes. US is not the only place where people play Magic and SCG open tournaments aren't the only events where Legacy is played. Meta was fine and in areas where blue was dominating it would have homogenized given 3-4 months more. The analytic reasonable approach would have been to wait for the next Grand Prix (in Providance MM hadn't fully established itself and those blue decks were not as optimized as they were in August) and then ban it in the next B/R update (if it proved to cripple the format even after 6-7 months and two Grand Prix). I would then shut my mouth and said, yep right call.

so all the people complaning about the ban, what language and foil or nonfoil were the missteps you wasted money on?

I had only 4 english non foil ones. I'm too traditional to go for pimp cards. But I was saving up for Tundras for that UW Landstill deck. Bummer...


So I have a question for those who are more experience in Legacy than me. If the format is more diverse now which decks invalidated by MM are now valid again (Tier 1, Tier 2) and we'll be seeing in Top 8s aside from Storm combo decks and Goblins? If the difference between MM meta and pre-MM post-Survival meta is so big we should be seeing 10 more different decks at least.

[Gheizen64]

I'm not too sure, if the argument was based upon pitchable to FOW then players would been bitching about that too... But the only argument I'd seen was how the card was able to counter a 1cc spell without an additional loss besides 2 life and it make the card too easy (ie brainless) to use.

Therefore even if Mental Misstep was purple players would be pushing for it's ban.

There was no designflaw here, the only problem is with Mental Misstep is the GAMBLERS. The game has taken to the level of POKER and POKER players hate chaos, the card creates chaos because the sure bet (the 1cc spell) is an easy target, therefore anything can happen, the other problem with POKER players is that they lack innovation so they then copy the best known strategy, this is why the deck pool seemed so small. Players that dont see Mental Misstep as a problem dont see this game as a poker game.

As for myself I see Mental Misstep as a challenge, just like Force of Will.

The argument was Mental Misstep pushed blue. If MM were red, it would have pushed blue considerably less, due to the fact being not pitchable to force is pretty big when you already run 3 colors and all.

Not that MM pushed blue imho.

[Draener]

@Goaswerfraiejen- I think I got hung up in your backing of Draener's most recent statement (which I have now come to understand was unintentional conflation), because I am finding myself in complete agreement with everything in your last post aside from counterpoint two, in which my use of a dated poll and statistics from a large-scale tournament from separate adjacent years was indeed relevant by illustrating the fact that control archetypes had not only coexisted with Vial in multiple metagames, but had been very healthy. However, from what I gather, Vial was just a superficial example, so the argument is pretty much moot.

Just to clarify my position on the banning— Mental Misstep shouldn't have been banned because the general Legacy metagame with Misstep hadn't reached its end behavior yet due to only being four months old, and therefore, couldn't be adequately assessed. The metagame was also not necessarily unhealthy enough in its current state to warrant a banning.

I agree with everything said here. Control still being viable with viable in the metagame with vial is the result of several iterations of control decks designed to beat that card. Likewise, aggro decks that have been designed to be beat the mental misstep decks are starting to emerge(Maverick does a pretty good job, as do Deadguy ale variants). I think the metagame could have been given some more time to adapt to the card.

The analogy of mental misstep to aether is not perfect. This is, of course, the nature of an analogy. Misstep is a colorless spell to go into any deck, while aether vial is also colorless and can be played in any deck. The conditions for vial to be good are much higher so this is where part of the analogy falls apart. However, aether vial does push out the viability of many decks (you don't see these present premental misstep because vial already pushed them out). BUG landstill is the result of control adapting (or warping as the latest buzzword) to vial. Pertinacious Deeds is one of the few effiecent answerers to both vial and the tempo it had already generated.

Here is the point... vial pushed out decks like mental misstep pushed out decks... neither pushed out entire archtypes (control, combo, aggro). Aggro was still present with MM, but they were forced to change. Likewise with combo.

[Goaswerfraiejen]

so all the people complaning about the ban, what language and foil or nonfoil were the missteps you wasted money on?

English and non-foil, although unhappy/disagreement =/= complaining.

[Rune]

so all the people complaning about the ban, what language and foil or nonfoil were the missteps you wasted money on?

Miscut, crimped, sun-bleached, Russian test print foils signed by Jeff Lebowski.

I had to sell my house, my car, two of my kids and a kidney to afford these. Now I have nothing. I hope you're happy for what you've done to me, you whiny tits.

[Admiral_Arzar]

Miscut, crimped, sun-bleached, Russian test print foils signed by Jeff Lebowski.

I had to sell my house, my car, two of my kids and a kidney to afford these. Now I have nothing. I hope you're happy for what you've done to me, you whiny tits.

This post made my morning.

[jrw1985]

MM didn't kill Goblins.

I played Goblins the whole while that MM was legal. I just added 4 MM to my maindeck to combat my opponents' MMs. I still had good results at my Thrusday night tourneys. At no point did I feel that the deck was iced out of the format or unplayable.

Why then did everyone else stop playing Goblins?

Because everyone said they must be terrible now.

Then everyone said, "Look, MM killed Goblins, since nobody plays Goblins now."

MM didn't kill Goblins. Social influence did.

And as a regular contributor to the Goblins page on the Source I can attest that postings on the thread dropped significantly while MM was legal. Once the banning was announced dozens of posts have poured in. People are saying that Goblins is playable again now that MM is gone, so people are rushing to the thread to discuss and get ready for their October tourneys.

The simple truth is that the social influence of the Magic community has more impact on which decks get played than whether or not that deck is playable.

[Lancer]

MM didn't kill Goblins. Social influence did.

Totally agree!!!

[sco0ter]

The simple truth is that the social influence of the Magic community has more impact on which decks get played than whether or not that deck is playable.

You are so right :)

I remember when Merfolk and Reanimator threads in another Legacy forum were moved to the Casual forum until these became "publicly accepted" Legacy decks.

The same applies to Tarmogoyf, too, IMO. If you posted a green decklist without him in 2009, you were classified as casual player. Social influence made him in that many decks.