I can't speak for everyone in this forum, but since I find myself falling into the catagory of people defending mental misstep I feel obliged to respond. I don't believe that control is the only skill-testing archtypes, and I actually think making optimal attacks and threat deployment to be one of the more skill testing aspects of magic.Originally Posted by Admiral_Arzar
The reason I like mental misstep in the format was that it pushed it away from the rock, paper, scissors format that was merfolk, zoo, counterbalance, combo. It also slow downed the game, making it increasingly likely for your decisions to matter.
Also, I like to feel like magic is a game between two people, and when playing combo versus aggro, this is so often not the case. Playing aggro vs storm is alot like playing storm vs MM... sure you can win, but it's so lopsided that most of the time your decisions don't matter.
The diference between a 1 mana creature and the same 2-mana drop is so far apart that it's not even funny. Maybe Goblin players didn't run Instigator because they realised that little fact? What makes you think that a deck like Goblins is obliged to play (and hope to have drawn it in their starting hand, after which it becomes useless) a blue card that fundamentally weakens it in order to even stand a little more chance of not getting its key drops countered practically every game vs decks that also have FoW + MM and the best card quality selection in Brainstorm to find them? Adapt indeed.
And MM turned into a format of just rock and paper.
A similar line of reasoning can be used for Storm vs Counterbalance.deck. Every deck has bad Matchups, this is what the Sideboard is for.Also, I like to feel like magic is a game between two people, and when playing combo versus aggro, this is so often not the case. Playing aggro vs storm is alot like playing storm vs MM... sure you can win, but it's so lopsided that most of the time your decisions don't matter.
I agree with this completely. What is wrong with having a diverse format that all the blue haters are still flaming against a single counterspell which broke the rock paper scissors trio and gave diversity to the format? It got banned anyway, just have a party and continue playing those 5 year old decks with the same 75 cards.
I'm a control sympathizer and never said that combo isn't skill intensive btw. I just kept bashing aggro and only in the form of Goblins. I said seeing ANT/TES again in full swing will be boring. As much as Counter-Top. Instead of Counterbalance I'd rather see Ancestral Visions on the board.
Also, someone mentioned people defending MM and UW Control decks in general should be missing Standard Caw Blade decks..I never played standard during that era, only during Tempest and Urza's.
The fact that anyone can argue that MM.format was more diverse than pre-MM.format blows my mind. I'm not sure what you're on bro, but can you share some of it? I want to expand my mind. Also, why is it always Goblins that control players bash? Is it because they think the deck isn't skill intensive? (complete bullshit, btw). Or is it just because Goblins' card advantage engine allows it to shit on control? Probably the latter.
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At the moment I live in neither in the US or Europe, so I see a different metagame, in this case Tokyo. In the last few major events, half or more of the top 8 have been stoneblade. As far as other slots are concerned, usually at least 1 or 2 related to show and tell based combo. This was not one exceptional event, this was across multiple larger events.
Please stop telling yourselves misstep led to a diverse format.
Aggro decks can dedicate the majority of their sideboard to beating combo and still have a bad matchup against it, so this argument doesn't really hold water. Wizards specifically stated they created Misstep with the intention of giving non-blue decks the ability to fight combo. They succeeded.
You don't have to be a total control freak who loves blue and thinks everyone else is a mouthbreathing windowlicker to agree with the idea that aggro should have an improved game against combo. In fact, if aggro has a stronger game against combo, then blue will inherently have a lower share of the metagame. Half the reason people play blue is because otherwise they're cold to combo and it feels like shit.
Wizards didn't make a mistake in printing a card that weakens combo; they made a mistake in printing a card that weakens combo while simultaneously strengthening blue.
The kicker is that now they learned something. How to make a card that hurts combo handily. You know you can expect something similar that blue can't use being made. You know it's going to happen.
I think that Aggro will always be a dog to any type of combinaton deck simply due to the nature of its gameplan. Having a plan of resolving creatures and beating with them till the opponent reaches zero would oftentimes be fundamentally too slow against a deck that revolves around having one big Storm turn or resolving huge fat like Emra on T2 or any of the dudes that Reanimator for instance runs. Also Decks like that, when they go off make it very, very hard for the Aggro player to win.
I'm not at all opposed to aggro having a stronger game against combo decks, just that it may not be really possible for it to have a favourable MU against combination decks. That said, imo, the MU is not terrible after boarding. It of course depends on the type of aggro deck (and the deck they are facing) but I've found that when playing ANT for instance, a combination of Mother Of Runes and Ethersworn Canonist is GG. Even a single maindeck Teeg with GSZ to find it is a huge uphill battle, if not outhright GG. Goblins does indeed struggle against any combo deck, Playing MM only weakens them.
Another question to consider is if MM really significantly improved the Aggro vs Combo MU. MM often could not be found in time and without draw and manipulation to find it it was often too late. A single counter almost never stops combo, it has to be paired with at least 2 or 3 others or at least some hate-bears. Once again that is the fundamental nature of the gameplans of the respective archetypes.
The main reason that blue is so heavily played is because players like to be in control of their destiny. Counterspells achieve that as well as being the best way to stop potentially "unfair" plays. Draw power/Library manipulation as well as card quality/advantage and easy splash-ability make it, by far, the most powerful colour in the game and, imho, it would be the most played/splashed colour regardless of whether the Combination Archetype even existed.
However, as Admiral Arzar pointed out, many blue players, it seems, really do have that "Countering spells is the only way to play magic and to hell with everything else" philosophy. Its not.
I'll never defend an abbhoration like Mental Misstep.
I perfectly understand the reasoning behind the printing of MM; however i don't think combo beating aggro is such a problem in legacy. Aside from short periods of time before key cards were banned (Flash, Mystical Tutor - different power levels but strong dominance), combo is never a huge part of the metagame, and this is for a simple reason : people know that in every serious legacy tournamenent, a good part of the field (where i play i think it's around 50%) will be playing blue and packing FoW, and most players fear blue when playing combo.
I don't think I have ever been to a legacy tournament where combo represented more than 10% of the field, when aggro control had some ridiculous numbers (back in 2008 thresh was everywhere), and when aggro is always represented in some form (goblins, merfolk, zoo, midrange...).
Seeing MM in aggro decks (and I say it as a storm combo player) was healthy for the format, seeing it along with FoW in every aggro-control deck was just a way to destroy one of the "pillars" - as it is usually admitted that legacy works with combo beats aggro beats aggro-control beats combo (very roughly) - and under MM it seemed to be aggro-control beats all.
About aggro being stupid : it used to be true sometimes with goblins (lackey waste rishadan is not very hard to pull off) but most of the time this deck involves a lot of decision making (matron toolboxes, opposite sweepers...). One deck that is truly linear though, and that i'm really sick of, is merfolk....
I think it would be a real problem if aggro had a positive matchup against combo. I just think the disparity between the two should probably be less than what it is, because the disparity between control and aggro and between combo and control are both much less severe.
Even with board, aggro decks tend to have about a 30ish percent matchup against combo at best. I don't think it should be 50/50, but I do think a card like Misstep which pushes the matchup a bit more in aggro's favor, that can be easily run by most (nonblue) decks, and without being terribly narrow, would be a good thing for the format.
The hardest part, of course, is finding a way to print a card like that which isn't also amazing for blue-based control decks. I suspect they'll figure it out eventually.
Much like people figured out new, creative ways to combat Mental Misstep, no doubt.
I think some people have suggested a fixed Mental Misstep
Fixed Mental Misstep (PhyrexianR)
Counter target instant or sorcery spell with converted mana cost 1.
The fact that Mental Misstep hit all 1-drops was such a huge factor, and it being blue is just gravy.
Except that most blue decks would still take the plunge and run it, it would still benefit NO RUG disproportionately, it would be just as insane with Snapcaster Mage, and it would still "push out" the same decks it allegedly pushed out before. I don't really see how such a 'solution' can be endorsed without rejecting a large number of the anti-Misstep crowd's arguments.
"I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each. I do not think they will sing to me." -T.S. Eliot
RIP Ari
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That is not even close to the same ballpark as Misstep. It doesn't stop Vial and it doesn't stop Nacatl. The worst feeling in world was turn 1 Nacatl, Misstep. Their turn 2, Standstill. At that point, I have effectively lost the game. There was nothing I could do. Should I not have played Nacatl? Should I have mulliganed to my own Misstep? Fixed Misstep can't do that. Stopping my Path and Bolt suck. But stopping my Vial or Nacatl was crippling.
It is probably too good with Snapcaster, but I don't think it is nearly as overpowered and de-diversifyig as Misstep is.
Tom? Is that you? I thought you were going to go work on DnD?
Blue decks can still run it sure but you have to admit that not being able to answer Nacatls, Lackeys and Vials makes Control's matchup against Aggro not as good as it was had it been original Missteps, making it less appealing. I doubt it even gets the automatic 4-of treatment even in said control decks, and the fact that it's not blue and not being pitchable to FoW is not without its disadvantages. The main thing I'm trying to point out is this becomes a viable option for Aggro decks against combo decks without it being just as viable for Control decks against Aggro decks, which was not the case with the Original Misstep.
Edit: Ninja'd by CorpT but I'm basically trying to say the same thing.
Like White Knight and Mirran Crusader are "the same"? If you think that misstep is bad because it "only" protects your threads from other missteps and is "useless" if not in your starting hand you completly failed understanding the card, sorry
"But, but, but they have FoW too!!" ... Seriouly that one again?
Didn't expect such a post from you, pal. While I'm kinda mad that my LED's cover with dust with all the missteps and spell snares around the pure numbers theCounsil.es and others share do indeed show more different viable (T8) decks than pre-misstep with TES, Zoo, Meerfolk, Countertop and pets. Zenith decks gained more steam, Maverick, Rock, Junk, HiveMind all were suddenly playable because of the slowdown of the meta misstep caused. Those data prove too that there wasn't a significant increase of "blue decks" due to missteps rise outside of SCG.
The Goblin-Issue: I'm pretty sure it's because their decks has 8 1cc-life-cards that are Auto-win if unanswered immediately and if those cards can't fullfil their purpose the Deck is dead. In all those years I've faced so many aggressive and misbehaving Goblin players (if the later happens) that it's hard to ignore and combined with all the immature and repeating arguments for banning all kind of cards that challenge this archetype (without evoltuion for 6 years) in his meta-position, I can understand that it's unlikely to withstand the impression that douches spike here.
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I assume by this you are suggesting that Goblins is not a skill intensive deck in comparison to other aggro decks.
I don't regularly play Goblins (only occasionally for fun against friends), but it is one of the more complex decks in the format. Certainly, it doesn't require the same exact decisions involved in piloting Storm combo (a deck I do often play) or a control deck, but just because a deck doesn't run blue does not mean you can run it on autopilot. Goblins probably has more complicated decision trees than any aggro deck in the format.
On another note, are people really suggesting that Mental Misstep helped the diversity of the format? Legacy between the banning of Survival and the printing of Mental Misstep was probably the healthiest, most balanced, and most diverse format in the history of constructed Magic. Legacy after Misstep was still pretty fun, certainly much better than any other constructed format, but it wasn't as great as it was before.
This seems interesting, cause it touches the topic about players attitude that ends forming a generalization when we refer to a deck archetype. Just like objetivity is flawed by logic, generalizations fall under the same category, not everyone is a complete douche just because he plays certain archetype. I'm sure they are nice and polite players that like to play their old and loved cards. But that's a topic that does not belong in this thread.
About the Goblins isssue, it seems recurring in some pros articles to continously bash the deck, and that probably helps to create a stigma against it (not only Goblins, btw). I really don't think that the ability of the deck to outclass blue control (when it does) only depends on the 8 one drops, it's because almost every goblin in the deck generates card advantage, making for a better late-game (and very rare for a red deck).
And again, that's why this format is so beautiful, you can win with both old classics and new brews.
Misread it as the same as Misstep but Red. Didn't notice the 'instants or sorceries' clause.
"I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each. I do not think they will sing to me." -T.S. Eliot
RIP Ari
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