The September 20th 2011 Banned / Restricted List Update Reaction Thread

[Admiral_Arzar]

Didn't expect such a post from you, pal. While I'm kinda mad that my LED's cover with dust with all the missteps and spell snares around the pure numbers theCounsil.es and others share do indeed show more different viable (T8) decks than pre-misstep with TES, Zoo, Meerfolk, Countertop and pets. Zenith decks gained more steam, Maverick, Rock, Junk, HiveMind all were suddenly playable because of the slowdown of the meta misstep caused. Those data prove too that there wasn't a significant increase of "blue decks" due to missteps rise outside of SCG.

The Goblin-Issue: I'm pretty sure it's because their decks has 8 1cc-life-cards that are Auto-win if unanswered immediately and if those cards can't fullfil their purpose the Deck is dead. In all those years I've faced so many aggressive and misbehaving Goblin players (if the later happens) that it's hard to ignore and combined with all the immature and repeating arguments for banning all kind of cards that challenge this archetype (without evoltuion for 6 years) in his meta-position, I can understand that it's unlikely to withstand the impression that douches spike here.

I'm full of surprises bro :P. I need to look at the numbers again, because I still fondly remember that stretch of SCG opens in March through May or so where almost every top 8 had 8 different decks, and those decks changed from week to week (this was after CB started to fade away). I will admit that the format immediately post-survival ban was kind of boring, but it didn't take long for new decks to pop up.

Interesting, I can't ever remember facing a douchy Goblins player. I play the deck myself occasionally, because I like red decks and it's hard to find another viable one in Legacy. The complexity in the deck also makes it much more appealing to me than Merfolk or Zoo.

About the Goblins isssue, it seems recurring in some pros articles to continously bash the deck, and that probably helps to create a stigma against it (not only Goblins, btw). I really don't think that the ability of the deck to outclass blue control (when it does) only depends on the 8 one drops, it's because almost every goblin in the deck generates card advantage, making for a better late-game (and very rare for a red deck).

The one-drops aren't really important against slow blue control. It's the Matrons and Ringleaders that allow you to grind out the late game. Vial makes these games kind of one-sided, but goblins can definitely win without it. The opponents that the deck really needs the one-drops against are the more aggressive u/x midrange decks, where if you don't get a fast start you just get beat down by 'Goyfs and Germ tokens before you can stabilize and overwhelm them with card advantage.

[SpikeyMikey]

Much like people figured out new, creative ways to combat Mental Misstep, no doubt.

I lol'd.

I think that Aggro will always be a dog to any type of combinaton deck simply due to the nature of its gameplan. Having a plan of resolving creatures and beating with them till the opponent reaches zero would oftentimes be fundamentally too slow against a deck that revolves around having one big Storm turn or resolving huge fat like Emra on T2 or any of the dudes that Reanimator for instance runs. Also Decks like that, when they go off make it very, very hard for the Aggro player to win.

This shows a fundamental misunderstanding of the strategy of the game. You're putting the cart before the horse here. Combo doesn't beat aggro because of any failing of aggro, it beats aggro because if it doesn't, it's not worth playing. Which is why you don't see Sandquipoise decks. Or Trix. Or Project Melira. Or Rice Snack. Or Blackjack, Pebbles, Life, Soul Sisters, Splinter Twin or any other combo deck from the annals of Magic history. It's not because they stopped functioning, it's because they stopped beating aggro. Control is always going to have better tools to fight combo than combo is going to have to fight control. When this isn't the case, generally part of the combo gets banned because it's too format warping. So it has to focus on beating aggro. If it doesn't consistently beat aggro, there's no reason to play it.

You've come to the right conclusion (combo beats aggro) but you've come to that conclusion via the wrong route. This brings into question your logic in regards to the other issues you've touched upon.

For example:

A single counter almost never stops combo, it has to be paired with at least 2 or 3 others or at least some hate-bears.

This is true, as regards control or midrange decks. But Zoo can sometimes race a deck like TES or especially Spiral Tide by itself. In a situation like that, a counter on a key spell, buying the aggro deck an additional turn, *will* stop the combo long enough to win. If you're playing something like NOPRO Bant, then no, 1 counter isn't enough. But you're playing with Rhox War Monk, not Wild Nacatl, which creates a significant difference in goldfish speed.

Or:

Goblins does indeed struggle against any combo deck. Playing MM only weakens them.

While I could see where it would make sense for Goblins to struggle against combo, the last time I saw someone break down data from an actual SCG Open, R/B Goblins was actually favored against ANT at 52%. This was when Mystical Tutor was legal! While I don't play Goblins or storm regularly, I would attribute this to a combination of Thoughtseize and mana disruption; storm decks don't function well without any land at all and Goblins is a beast when it comes to applying pressure while locking down mana.

I would also argue that playing Mental Misstep does not weaken Goblins. In addition to protecting Vial and Lackey from Mental Misstep, it also protects Lackey and Piledriver from Swords to Plowshares. 1 mana single target removal spells (Swords, Path, Bolt, Lavamancer) are still the best answers to Goblins as there are goblins that generate card advantage and goblins that actually win.

However, NO RUG does an excellent job of controlling Goblins early game. The deck is resilient to mana disruption because of the early mana acceleration. It runs a good amount of burn, including Lavamancer, which is as good or better than Jitte against Goblins (and Jitte ruins Gobbos). It has a combo finish that Goblins has a hard time stopping (Warren Weirding is good, but it's hard to get NO decks with just Prog on the board. Not like the good ole days :P ). Stoneblade has a similarly positive matchup; Batterskull does a lot to blunt the assault and having access to Jitte and convenient fliers to carry it means it can control the number of Goblins on the board without losing card advantage to do it.

Even with that, Goblins was still a competitive deck for many people during the time Mental Misstep was legal. There has been plenty of anecdotal evidence given that Goblins could still compete. It simply wasn't as easy to pilot. Consider it similar to ANT w/ Mystical vs. TES now. ANT w/ Mystical pulled in a lot more players because it was easier to pilot than modern TES. Goblins in the Misstep era is analagous to TES here. Playable, maybe even good, but not autopilotable.


It's really not your fault. Most people are bad at theory. But this is why I question letting popular opinion determine the direction of the banned list. Remember, the T2 and Extended formats that people hate so much are a direct result of Wizards involving the community and reacting to their input. Modern's problems can be traced to that same root. Legacy doesn't suck only because those sets pre-Mirrodin were designed with less thought about community input and they produced a much fairer, balanced set of formats.

As I've said before, the reason Misstep *seemed* so dominating is that it was the wrong spell for a lot of decks that ran it. That seems counter-intuitive, but when you realize that the top decks in the format were cold to Misstep (which as has been pointed out, was freaking everywhere), you'll understand why I've said that Misstep is no better than Pierce or Snare.

Imagine a format where every blue deck runs Spell Snare but the top two decks run 0 two-drops (but they do pack Spell Snare themselves). And everyone goes "ZOMG, Spell Snare is so busted. It's why those decks are winning so much!" Well sort of. Sure, Spell Snare can be very good, that's why people run it over Daze. But it's not the use of Spell Snare in those decks that makes them good, it's the fact that everyone else is *misusing* Spell Snare. In the case of our format prior to the banning, Spell Pierce was the counter people should've been playing.

[Lemnear]

I switch between control and combo due to the weather on the morning of the tournament so I only really freak-out if they ban Brainstorm and LED together. :D

Sadly I wasn't joking about the players. I have to admit that the majority of Goblin players in the last 5 years were barely over 17; that COULD explain acting "immature" but get'n loud, slaming their cards on the desk, calling you "lucker" and shit happens to stay in mind. Maybe it's a german phemon .... dunno. Heared the oppostite many times.

I was told that in Japan was a tournament with 8 Stoneblades in T8 and I know the overwhelmingly one-sided SCG-meta that reminds me of Survival there. I for myself tend to strongly weight the European meta considering the impact of cards and strategies because of the different mentalities different decks are popular. If a special strategy is undoubtful supreme you'll notice it here too (and vice versa).

So data showed indeed that misstep was Meta-warping but that isn't always a bad thing some people want us to think. Fetchlands extremely warped the meta for example but was it really "Bad"? Daze warped the meta by forcing Players to have it in mind against blue. Dutch data showed T8 finishes of Goblins, Zoo and Rock so at least those decks were far from being dead. I registrated a lack of Storm-combo there (Dutch love Storm) that can be caused by misstep. Meanwhile Rock, Loam, Maverick, Junk and other midrange had serious impact dodging the whole misstep-meta.

Misstep may killed Strom but "gave birth" to a lot of midrange decks.

[Admiral_Arzar]

Misstep may killed Strom but "gave birth" to a lot of midrange decks.

I disagree with the second part of this point. A lot of those midrange decks (Junk especially) were just as strong, if not stronger, pre-Misstep. Junk suffers greatly if its T1 Thoughtseize or SDT gets Misstepped. The deck is quite strong against a lot of blue decks otherwise. Maverick was strong in Europe before Misstep, from what I've heard. Blue midrange certainly got a boost from Misstep, but nonblue wasn't particularly affected from what I've seen.

[Pinoy Goblin]

This Banning / Unbanning .... and similar SHI. is going on my nerves .... and FU..... my valet!

Come on WoTC make up some strategy about Banning! FFS!

People will adapt and build around it!

Best thing right now is to play online and stop dropping money in fire!

Some ridiculously strong thing are floating around still ... and MM ... witch only could stop 1.st turn powerful drops (like lackey or vial) or pesky 1 mana removals (swords/path) ... is out.

As i understand .... Wizards would like to see more creature based decks .... how can u play such a thing with low cost pest removals like that!

Now again ... gobos and folk will rake across Legacy! And it was just becoming interesting! They should have let it some more time to develop!

Innnistrad is pretty disappointing so far!

IS THERE A HELMSMAN AT WIZARDS? WHAT IS THE COURSE IN WITCH MAGIC IS HEADING?!

A true blue player crying over his foiled missteps (maybe) lol Goblins will make a come back and be back harder than ever!!! Just about time . . . expect your brainstorms to be axed next with the printing of your snapcaster mages

[alderon666]

While I could see where it would make sense for Goblins to struggle against combo, the last time I saw someone break down data from an actual SCG Open, R/B Goblins was actually favored against ANT at 52%. This was when Mystical Tutor was legal! While I don't play Goblins or storm regularly, I would attribute this to a combination of Thoughtseize and mana disruption; storm decks don't function well without any land at all and Goblins is a beast when it comes to applying pressure while locking down mana.

I attribute that to a small sample of data and bad storm players. Discard and mana disruption aren't all that good against TES for example, not unless you have counter backup. It's just not enough, a goblin player probably has to draw Wasteland + Seize + Thorn of Amethyst + Clock to beat a decent storm hand. Seriously, the match is as close to as bye as it gets.

[joemauer]

So data showed indeed that misstep was Meta-warping but that isn't always a bad thing some people want us to think. Fetchlands extremely warped the meta for example but was it really "Bad"? Daze warped the meta by forcing Players to have it in mind against blue. Dutch data showed T8 finishes of Goblins, Zoo and Rock so at least those decks were far from being dead. I registrated a lack of Storm-combo there (Dutch love Storm) that can be caused by misstep. Meanwhile Rock, Loam, Maverick, Junk and other midrange had serious impact dodging the whole misstep-meta.

Format warping is not always bad, correct. This time however it was. Shaping the format is one thing, but having a subset of cards(one mana costing cards)penalized for being in a deck unless paired up with Mental Missteps is not good. It does not make the game more enjoyable or in any way better.

Also, people keep saying how diverse the format got with the introduction of Mental Misstep right? Instead of pulling put top 8's of different decks, show me some top eight that did not have MM in most of them. Probably only at the beginning of MMs introduction?

You see Mental Misstep wasn't bad because it made things less diverse, even though I believe it did. It was bad because it was an unfair card. You had to play with it or around it to succeed. Playing around it meant playing cards without the one mana costs. If you liked to use one mana costs spells in your deck but did not enjoy using Mental Misstep you were out of luck. Feeling like you have to put MM in your deck to play other one mana costing cards warps the format negatively.

[Humphrey]

You see Mental Misstep wasn't bad because it made things less diverse, even though I believe it did. It was bad because it was an unfair card. You had to play with it or around it to succeed. Playing around it meant playing cards without the one mana costs. If you liked to use one mana costs spells in your deck but did not enjoy using Mental Misstep you were out of luck. Feeling like you have to put MM in your deck to play other one mana costing cards warps the format negatively.

Same is true for cards like Wasteland, Daze and other stuff. I dont see a problem here

[Lemnear]

It was bad because it was an unfair card. You had to play with it or around it to succeed. Playing around it meant playing cards without the one mana costs. If you liked to use one mana costs spells in your deck but did not enjoy using Mental Misstep you were out of luck. Feeling like you have to put MM in your deck to play other one mana costing cards warps the format negatively.

http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=6859

There's a list that proves you plain wrong; one of the newest. More "blue dominance":

http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=6865

http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=6870

http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=6848

Etc.

Humphrey got my point about Daze and others.

[joemauer]

Same is true for cards like Wasteland, Daze and other stuff. I dont see a problem here

Only card that could be compared to Mental Misstep would be Wasteland perhaps?

Wasteland fights a subset of cards, non basic lands. However there is a serious penalty for using Wasteland(and daze for that matter), you use up your land drop. Wasteland helps keep the format from getting too crazy with five color decks.

I think the penalty of cards like wasteland and such versus Mental Misstep's penalty attached is huge. Picture if daze or wasteland were spells that cost two life to play instead of their current costs.

[joemauer]

http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=6859

There's a list that proves you plain wrong; one of the latest lists. More "blue dominance":

http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=6865

http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=6870

http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=6848

Etc.

Humphrey got my point about Daze and others.

This helped prove my point. I never said blue dominance. I said Mental Misstep dominance.

Maverick was the only deck to win a tourney without Mental Misstep from links you provided.

The most recent tourney had mental misstep in the top four decks.

My personal favorite was the dredge list that won. Even Dredge used Mental Misstep!

[CorpT]

FYI: 48 person tournaments don't count. 7 round minimum, 8 is where it starts to become real.

[SpikeyMikey]

Only card that could be compared to Mental Misstep would be Wasteland perhaps?

Wasteland fights a subset of cards, non basic lands. However there is a serious penalty for using Wasteland(and daze for that matter), you use up your land drop. Wasteland helps keep the format from getting too crazy with five color decks.

I think the penalty of cards like wasteland and such versus Mental Misstep's penalty attached is huge. Picture if daze or wasteland were spells that cost two life to play instead of their current costs.

Snuff Out is unfair and bad for the format. It nullifies an entire subset of cards, namely non-black creatures without shroud, it costs 0 mana and it can be run in any deck that has fetchlands to get a black dual.

Tormod's Crypt is unfair and bad for the format. It nullifies an entire subset of cards, namely anything that cares about the graveyard, it costs 0 mana and it can be run in any deck that isn't running Null Rod.

Force of Will is unfair and bad for the format. It nullifies an entire subset of cards, namely anything that isn't a fucking land, it costs 0 mana and can be run in any deck with at least 16 blue cards.

Abolish is unfair and bad for the format. It nullifies an entire subset of cards, namely enchantments and artifacts, it costs 0 mana and can be run in any deck that contains Plains or white duals.

Shall I continue?

This whole "subset of cards" thing is such a load of crap. So many of your statements are completely illogical that I can't even take your post seriously.

You see Mental Misstep wasn't bad because it made things less diverse, even though I believe it did. It was bad because it was an unfair card. You had to play with it or around it to succeed. Playing around it meant playing cards without the one mana costs. If you liked to use one mana costs spells in your deck but did not enjoy using Mental Misstep you were out of luck. Feeling like you have to put MM in your deck to play other one mana costing cards warps the format negatively.

You see, Swords to Plowshares wasn't bad because it made things less diverse, even though I believe it did. It was bad because it was an unfair card. You had to play with it or around it to succeed. Playing around it meant running no creatures. If you liked to use creatures in your deck but did not enjoy using Swords to Plowshares (to remove blockers), you were out of luck. Feeling like you have to put StP in your deck to play creature cards warps the format negatively.

Tell me that doesn't sound absurd. But the logic is 100% the same.

[Draener]

Here's the thing, if they print a card that gives any deck a real shot at beating combo and has other applications it comes as no surprise that every deck is going to use it. This is what wizards said they set out to do, and they succeeded. Aggro decks simply don't have a card that interacts well with combo outside of mental misstep.

[Tammit67]

Here's the thing, if they print a card that gives any deck a real shot at beating combo and has other applications it comes as no surprise that every deck is going to use it. This is what wizards said they set out to do, and they succeeded. Aggro decks simply don't have a card that interacts well with combo outside of mental misstep.

Aggro with misstep still doesn't have the tools it needs to beat Combo. It wasn't MMS Zoo pushing out TES

[joemauer]

Snuff Out is unfair and bad for the format. It nullifies an entire subset of cards, namely non-black creatures without shroud, it costs 0 mana and it can be run in any deck that has fetchlands to get a black dual.

Tormod's Crypt is unfair and bad for the format. It nullifies an entire subset of cards, namely anything that cares about the graveyard, it costs 0 mana and it can be run in any deck that isn't running Null Rod.

Force of Will is unfair and bad for the format. It nullifies an entire subset of cards, namely anything that isn't a fucking land, it costs 0 mana and can be run in any deck with at least 16 blue cards.

Abolish is unfair and bad for the format. It nullifies an entire subset of cards, namely enchantments and artifacts, it costs 0 mana and can be run in any deck that contains Plains or white duals.

Shall I continue?

This whole "subset of cards" thing is such a load of crap. So many of your statements are completely illogical that I can't even take your post seriously.



You see, Swords to Plowshares wasn't bad because it made things less diverse, even though I believe it did. It was bad because it was an unfair card. You had to play with it or around it to succeed. Playing around it meant running no creatures. If you liked to use creatures in your deck but did not enjoy using Swords to Plowshares (to remove blockers), you were out of luck. Feeling like you have to put StP in your deck to play creature cards warps the format negatively.

Tell me that doesn't sound absurd. But the logic is 100% the same.

Mental Misstep cost one card and two life.

Which cards did you list do that?

[Admiral_Arzar]

Mental Misstep cost one card and two life.

Which cards did you list do that?

The whole "free/functionally colorless spell" thing seems to be flying straight over the heads of all the people comparing Misstep to other, non-free legacy staples.

[SpikeyMikey]

Mental Misstep cost one card and two life.

Which cards did you list do that?

I'm sorry, I should've listed Surgical Extraction and Gut Shot.

Snuff Out, 1 card, 4 life
Tormod's Crypt, 1 card, 0 life

I'd say those are pretty damn close in terms of cost. But you're right, there is no other card that isn't Mental Misstep that is exactly the same as Mental Misstep. What's your point? Keep saying irrelevant things, it TOTALLY strengthens your case.

[joemauer]

I'm sorry, I should've listed Surgical Extraction and Gut Shot.

Snuff Out, 1 card, 4 life
Tormod's Crypt, 1 card, 0 life

I'd say those are pretty damn close in terms of cost. But you're right, there is no other card that isn't Mental Misstep that is exactly the same as Mental Misstep. What's your point? Keep saying irrelevant things, it TOTALLY strengthens your case.

Snuff Out I believe requires a swamp, so that is very much in black's usual flavor.

So your best comparison to Mental Misstep is Tormod's Crypt? A graveyard sweeper...

and gut shot and surgical extraction? Which set of cards do those two negate?

[Draener]

Aggro with misstep still doesn't have the tools it needs to beat Combo. It wasn't MMS Zoo pushing out TES

True, I would feel a whole lot less shitty about running Teeg maindeck in zoo if he was a decent creature for the cost. MM was a decent card for the cost that would actually help combat combo.