[Deck] Dredge

[Parcher]

You wanna hear how good Firestorm is? The best Firestorm ever? And this is from someone who's played the card more than anyone, and has seen Firestorm take out two Tombstalkers and a Jailer, or six Goblins in one turn. Read on...

Round one at SCG Baltimore I get Esper Blade. Game one I blow him out. Game two, I open with PImp, which actually resolved. But my first dredge hits a Bridge, which gets immediately Extirpated. I use a Therapy in hand and one in yard to remove his threats, but he lands a Relic. I slow dredge, and swing with an Ichorid which gets Pathed. He then doesn't use Relic when I land another Ichorid, as he has another Path. When I land the third Ichorid and a Narcomoeba, he Relics. But has taken two from PImp every turn, and another Therapy hit another threat.

I then hit the third Ichorid, which gets Pathed. I'm curious why he didn't Path the PImp, until he drops another Relic next turn. Shit.

I dredge nothing for two turns, then hit Ichorid, Narco, Narco, which of course, he Relics. So at this point, he is at 5, with one card in hand and some lands. I am at like 17, with PImp, 7 cards, no graveyard, a Gemstone, and three cards in my library. He draws for the turn and plays Stoneforge for Batterskull. I pitch my blank draw to grant flying, and swing for one. He draws for the turn and plays Stoneforge for SoFaF. I repeat my last turn, and he vials in Batterskull EOT. He swings to change the life totals to 7 to 13 and passes with an unknown and SoFaF in hand.

I draw up to 8(my last card, nothing in 'yard), pitch to PImp and swing for one, then Firestorm him, me, PImp, Skull, and both Mystics.

GG's, sir.

[Vandalize]

You wanna hear how good Firestorm is? The best Firestorm ever? And this is from someone who's played the card more than anyone, and has seen Firestorm take out two Tombstalkers and a Jailer, or six Goblins in one turn. Read on...

Round one at SCG Baltimore I get Esper Blade. Game one I blow him out. Game two, I open with PImp, which actually resolved. But my first dredge hits a Bridge, which gets immediately Extirpated. I use a Therapy in hand and one in yard to remove his threats, but he lands a Relic. I slow dredge, and swing with an Ichorid which gets Pathed. He then doesn't use Relic when I land another Ichorid, as he has another Path. When I land the third Ichorid and a Narcomoeba, he Relics. But has taken two from PImp every turn, and another Therapy hit another threat.

I then hit the third Ichorid, which gets Pathed. I'm curious why he didn't Path the PImp, until he drops another Relic next turn. Shit.

I dredge nothing for two turns, then hit Ichorid, Narco, Narco, which of course, he Relics. So at this point, he is at 5, with one card in hand and some lands. I am at like 17, with PImp, 7 cards, no graveyard, a Gemstone, and three cards in my library. He draws for the turn and plays Stoneforge for Batterskull. I pitch my blank draw to grant flying, and swing for one. He draws for the turn and plays Stoneforge for SoFaF. I repeat my last turn, and he vials in Batterskull EOT. He swings to change the life totals to 7 to 13 and passes with an unknown and SoFaF in hand.

I draw up to 8(my last card, nothing in 'yard), pitch to PImp and swing for one, then Firestorm him, me, PImp, Skull, and both Mystics.

GG's, sir.

Wew, nice one.

I've been trying Firestorm main for a while, and I've kind of dropped it in sideboard, because of ocasional dredge fizzles. Still, it's a pretty nice choice.

@Elesh Norn: She slaughters every aggro deck, killing everything, and making every survival cripple. And it's pretty nice to swing with 5/3 Ichorids. There's no doubt why HokusSchmokus plays 2-of in his sideboard... she's just that good.

[Mojeh]

@Gui:
Well, although I think either Elesh or Iona would do a great job, I'm still concerned about their Karakas. The only solid DR target I can think of is Blazing Archon (if you consider it in your build, of course). If I am not playing Blazing Archon, then I think I'll just play with no DR targets at all, maybe siding in the second DR, as a sac outlet.

[HokusSchmokus]

Elseh Zorn against maverick, goblins, mirror, elves,etc.
Not against merfolk

[Gui]

@Gui:
Well, although I think either Elesh or Iona would do a great job, I'm still concerned about their Karakas. The only solid DR target I can think of is Blazing Archon (if you consider it in your build, of course). If I am not playing Blazing Archon, then I think I'll just play with no DR targets at all, maybe siding in the second DR, as a sac outlet.

I have this opinion too.

I was thinking about siding Inkwell Leviathan against Maverick. I know it sounds kinda lame, no effects and no synergy, but it's a 3-turn clock that cannot be removed, not even by a early knight that can fetch a karakas. What do you guys think?

Just a small edit: a friend thinks Simic Sky Swallower would be better, so, this is an option too

[Mojeh]

I have this opinion too.

I was thinking about siding Inkwell Leviathan against Maverick. I know it sounds kinda lame, no effects and no synergy, but it's a 3-turn clock that cannot be removed, not even by a early knight that can fetch a karakas. What do you guys think?

Just a small edit: a friend thinks Simic Sky Swallower would be better, so, this is an option too

Well, the problem is "wasting" 1 slot on DR board just for this matchup. I wonder if FKZ and some zombies would do this job even better, and also improving another match ups. The key against GW, in my point of view, is speed. They have hate, but they're often too slow fetching a bojuka from KotR, or even using Enlightened Tutor @Wheel of Sun and Moon.
On the other hand, Blazing Archon could be useful against Reanimator, aggros with few removals and Emrakul.decks. Keep in mind Archon has a 4 turns clock by itself.

[NecroYawgmoth]

Because end of turn1 playing E.Tutor and then playing Wheel of Sun and Moon on turn 2 is too slow, eh?

Iona naming Black is as good against Reanimator as Archon is as long as there aren't any creatures. If he reanimates any, the Reanimator-player probably gets Elesh Norn which simply kills us. [If the situation occurs that we have a Archon and he has an Elesh, he has enough time to deck us, or find an bounce spell for Archon.] So a clearly No against Archon from my side. =P

IMO Iona naming White should be a good enough "shrouded" clock against Maverick as long as Knight isn't there, but Elesh is still MVP here. Still, many people underestimate her. [I have no clue about Simic Sky Swallower, but I can see it as an 3 turn clock like Iona. (pro argument for SSS over Iona is probably Knight fetching Maze of Ith or Karakas)]


EDIT: We should take into account that Surgical Extraction was 1 of the "top 5" cards in Amsterdam, so it could be that gravehate swaps in this direction [because it is good against many decks, not just simply dredge]. 1 Extraction with Aggro-backup is kinda hard for us. 2 right timed and targeted Extractions are GG.

[Gui]

Well, the problem is "wasting" 1 slot on DR board just for this matchup. I wonder if FKZ and some zombies would do this job even better, and also improving another match ups. The key against GW, in my point of view, is speed. They have hate, but they're often too slow fetching a bojuka from KotR, or even using Enlightened Tutor @Wheel of Sun and Moon.
On the other hand, Blazing Archon could be useful against Reanimator, aggros with few removals and Emrakul.decks. Keep in mind Archon has a 4 turns clock by itself.

There's ET into Tormods too, and KotR fetches bojuka at turn 3 sometimes. Also there's the fact that they side 3 things in, with bojuka, tormods and wheel, so they have a high chance of showing with at least T2 hate.

That said, you are right, speed is the solution here, since they usually can't handle an army of zombies.

This is why I want my DR target to be strong for the "or else" -> If I can't make a Zombie Apocalypse, then I should DR a gamebreaker DR target on its own, which in my opinion, Elesh is not, because of creatures like Tarmogoyf, KotR, Germ and also removals. Since my most relevant usage of Elesh are Elves! and Maverick, I am thinking of switching Elesh for a Inkwell.

I don't think Blazing Archon isn't that much strong against maverick, they run too much removal.

I want to test inkwell, I have a tourney this weekend, maybe I test it before, or real time there, if I find one to buy. =P
I'll let you guys know if I do

[Mojeh]

If you are on the play, turn 2 Wheel can be slow.
Turn 1 -> Discard outlet. Maverick: E-Tutor eot.
Turn 2 -> Breakthrough. Maverick: Wheel
Turn 3-> Ichorids on the play, Reanimate FKZ, GG?

Notice that, the odds of Maverick have and E-tutor or Wheel in hand, are no bigger than we have a discard outlet + breakthrough/coliseum. Also, we actually can win the Game 1, and this means we have 2 games to achieve a turn 2 breakthrough. And we do have answers to Wheel, while they can do nothing against Ray of Revelation of Nature's Claim.

[Mojeh]

Sorry for double-posting, I was tipping while you guys posted.

@Surgical Extraction: That kinda worry me, specially combined with Snapcaster Mage. I don't even have a clue of how deal with that. CT may be our only hope, but it's still suboptimal.

@Blazing Archon: Although it takes any removal, we can simply CT for plowshares first. Also, Archon seems quite usable against Goblins and some variations of Elves.
If we are out of Zombies, than I guess we I can't think of a DR target strong enough to win be game by itself, that's why I'm still considering FKZ.

[Gui]

Sorry for double-posting, I was tipping while you guys posted.

@Surgical Extraction: That kinda worry me, specially combined with Snapcaster Mage. I don't even have a clue of how deal with that. CT may be our only hope, but it's still suboptimal.

@Blazing Archon: Although it takes any removal, we can simply CT for plowshares first. Also, Archon seems quite usable against Goblins and some variations of Elves.
If we are out of Zombies, than I guess we I can't think of a DR target strong enough to win be game by itself, that's why I'm still considering FKZ.

Problem is that not always you have 15 zombies, sometimes you have 3-4. In this situation, a DR is possible, but FKZ is not good enough. In a scenario where Blazing is good, Elesh is also good, he can stall pratically anything, and finish Goblins and Elves on the spot. Not to mention Goblins is a good matchup, so I disconsider this fact, although it is useful there.

There is this problem with the "speed plan". It's inconsistant. It's hard to hit the "perfect hand", and it won't always end up with 4 bridges 3 moebas 3CT.

We can win with it, but we can usually also win without it. This isn't much the case for Maverick, but usually the secondary plan of not going so fast as T1 discard T2 Breakthrough is still good.

Against maverick, the slow plan isn't good. This is why I am suggesting a DR target that could win without our grave, for the case it gets removed, or without Zombies, for the case we can't create that much tokens (or even both).

[Mojeh]

Problem is that not always you have 15 zombies, sometimes you have 3-4. In this situation, a DR is possible, but FKZ is not good enough. In a scenario where Blazing is good, Elesh is also good, he can stall pratically anything, and finish Goblins and Elves on the spot. Not to mention Goblins is a good matchup, so I disconsider this fact, although it is useful there.

There is this problem with the "speed plan". It's inconsistant. It's hard to hit the "perfect hand", and it won't always end up with 4 bridges 3 moebas 3CT.

We can win with it, but we can usually also win without it. This isn't much the case for Maverick, but usually the secondary plan of not going so fast as T1 discard T2 Breakthrough is still good.

Against maverick, the slow plan isn't good. This is why I am suggesting a DR target that could win without our grave, for the case it gets removed, or without Zombies, for the case we can't create that much tokens (or even both).

If we can strike with 4 zombies and a FKZ on turn 2 , I believe we have great chances of winning. Next turn we'd have 5 2/2's and some Ichorids, that might be enough. And come on, it's not that hard to make about 6 tokens, specially if we do not have to worry about instant-speed hate.

I got your point, I just don't wanna spend a slot on my 75 for just 1 match. Also, Maverick will probably get screwed in this Combo-infested brazilian metagame. Have you seen the latests LQ's top 8?

By the way, you said your are going to test Inkwell next weekend, is that going to be on an Legacy Qualifier? I hope we meet in Nationals =).

[HokusSchmokus]

Just Run firestorm.Believe me it helps!

[joemauer]

@firestorm: This card is great in the main deck, tested it lately and I never missed tribe.

@blazing archon: Don't run it. Is bad.
Elesh is better in the mirror(stinkweed imp eats archon).
Better versus all tribal, because Elesh eats the board and shuts off elves. Merfolk can steal archon :/
Neither are good versus reanimator, iona & angel of despair are better there.
Blazing archon is better versus no rug, but those decks have brainstorm+swords to plowshares with counter magic backup. Resolving a big fatty is not what you want to do here.
Blazing archon is weak sauce. I said good bye to him and you guys should too.

[Dark Ritual]

Wait, don't board elesh norn v. merfolk? Are you serious Hokus? If you land norn v. a one lord board the opponent loses on the spot. Shrinking their guys is nice too. I see no reason not to board elesh norn v. merfolk because they are a creature based deck backed up with counters but still. Elesh norn landing against folk just swings the game in your favor tremendously.

[Shursh]

The 21st is a interesting dredge, U/B dredge, it is. Not to judge a 21st decklist, but the list looks a lot low on dredgers.

btw that guy is the only, who defeat Pierre Sommen day2
he could also made top8, but last 2 rounds he got overhate (r15 bant with 2+ pierce and reliquary for bojuka with poor hand and r16 punishing maverick with crypt, wheel, reliquary-bojuka AND pyroblast), no dredge players survive this, for sure

[HokusSchmokus]

Wait, don't board elesh norn v. merfolk? Are you serious Hokus? If you land norn v. a one lord board the opponent loses on the spot. Shrinking their guys is nice too. I see no reason not to board elesh norn v. merfolk because they are a creature based deck backed up with counters but still. Elesh norn landing against folk just swings the game in your favor tremendously.

In my whole life the number of resolved dread returns Vs a competent merfolk player is less than ten.

[NecroYawgmoth]

Thing is that there are many incompetent Merfolk-Players [which is also true for Dredge and nearly every other deck]. In that case Elesh Norn ends the game right now.

[Gui]

Thing is that there are many incompetent Merfolk-Players [which is also true for Dredge and nearly every other deck]. In that case Elesh Norn ends the game right now.

In this case we should win the game, one way or the other. =P

In a serious note, it's easier for a incompetent player to counter a DR than for them to hold a horde of Ichorids+zombies+moebas. ;)

[igri_is_a_bk]

This has been mentioned before, as I was the one who brought up the topic of siding for Merfolk. It's unwise and unproductive to assume our opponent is going to make the wrong decision concerning what to counter. Elesh will cripple Folk, no doubt, but why even risk casting DR in the first place? Unless I'm on a one turn clock, I leave those DRs untouched in my graveyard.

Here's an actual question for those playing Firestorm: do you sideboard at all against Folk?

I could see all 4 Breakthrough and 1-2 DR coming out, but do you have anything else more useful in your side for this match? I think bringing in artifact hate is wrong since we don't really care about Vial and their hate (in my experience) is no longer permanent based anyways. All the Folk players I know use Surgical Extraction and/or Ravenous Trap.