Legacy is doomed. SCG jumping on board the "Ban Brainstorm" wagon. :(

[Pippin]

Brainstorm is not getting banned.

The end

[Lemnear]

To all the people willing to quit if brainstorm gets banned...please do.

I mean, holy shit you guys have 100s and oftentimes 1000s of dollars invested in a game you spend hours and hours of your precious life playing and you want to quit because you can't cast a brainstorm? I'm not intelligent/sober enough to articulate how fundamentally retarded you must be to have dedicated hard-earned money and valuable time for many years to something apparently very enjoyable to just quit over something as trivial as the banning of one card. It's hard to stop ranting when 91234893 analogies keep coming to mind so I'll just stop and let other fill in the blanks.

/endrant

This point of view from the other side of the river: "If you don't like Legacy as a format play something else instead of trying to change it."

"go play another format or quit" is not an attitude ... It's childish




WotC opend a dangerous door with their People's Choice Bannings of Survival and Misstep. It's no wonder that the number of rants and "Ban this card ... for diversity!?" exploded on all forums on the net.

[RJM]

When I read the SCG event coverage and these are the kind of plays I'm looking at from the Quarterfinals and on... It doesn't really make me want to give a crap about what the opinions coming from said SCG results are showing anyone...

Quarterfinals: Alex Bertoncini vs. Tony Murata

(Tries to rush the KotR under no pressure played right into a Daze. He even lucks out and gets it back a turn later from Exhume, and apparently even though he's got the StP in hand... Decides to wait until after Gitaxias draws before trying to remove him? To the shock and awe of precisely zero people, it gets FoW'd after the draw 7.)

Anyway... On topic, banning Brainstorm would be dumb as hell. Would I rage quit over it all Hollywood drama style? Nah. But I'd probably have to take a little bit of a break to seriously re-evaluate exactly what format WotC has left me in which I can actually enjoy and play the cards I want to.

[Lemnear]

Read that one too ... awesome. After having a GenCon Vintage "World" *cough* Champion who missed a bunch of trigger and still was able to win you have a SCG quarterfinalist while doing such mistakes ... what the hells going on in the States?

[Hof]

Blue has experienced a recent spike in popularity because of Snapcaster + Delver, but i fail to see how that makes Brainstorm ban worthy. I really hope Wizards will let the format fix itself and not go "blue seems too powerful, lets take the best blue cards - whatever they are - and ban them to even the colors out a bit". That would be so dump.

[RJM]

I really hope Wizards will let the format fix itself and not go "blue seems too powerful, lets take the best blue cards - whatever they are - and ban them to even the colors out a bit". That would be so dump Modern.

Also accurate.

[Vacrix]

This is simply a stimulus to get people talking about magic and the nature of the metagame. Its a good thing. Brainstorm isn't getting banned. That would be like making 5 dollar bills illegal. What the FUCK would they do that for?

To alter something so crucial to the format would require MUCH thinking on WoTC's part because staples are what allow the format to have a certain amount of perpetuity. With staples you can build a deck that is relatively competitive even if it doesn't fit a DTB, DTW, or Established description. This allows legacy players to pursue a relatively unique yet competitive strategy. NO OTHER FORMAT HAS THIS ADVANTAGE. Take Standard and Vintage as the 2 logical extremes. Vintage has cards that are so good that you MUST play them to be competitive while Standard limits the card pool to such an extent that the cards that should be played are obvious. Extended is just like Standard with a slightly larger card pool, so it develops staples but they do eventually cycle. Legacy has cards that will always be good and therefore has archetypes that will always be good. Take away staples, you fuck up everything.

Its not like introducing a new card like Mind's Desire or Mental Misstep and then see what happens with a finger on the kill switch. That is format warp and then a warp to correct a mistake.

This is like saying that a defining piece of the format IS a mistake. Its kind of like walking up to a person and asking them why they have a nose. ITS PART OF MY FACE FUCK OFF!

Its not like when Mystical Tutor became so format defining that two combo decks, ANT and Reanimator, would obviously maintain dominance and make the game stupid because WoTC wanted to print more powerful cards like Ad Nauseum and Iona. So the format endured a correction because new cards were introduced. Brainstorm, however, is a card that allows the format to correct itself.

I think WoTC is just trying to create a mechanism by which the vast Standard population can get into a more perpetual format where their card values appreciate and they stick around playing for longer.

[Einherjer]

Do I play decks with brainstorm? Yes
Is brainstorm the card I enjoy most in playing this deck? NO NO and NOOOO, its pretty good but not the reason why I play this deck...

Greetings

[Adan]

I actually think Brainstorm is one of the most important pillars of Legacy. I already found Modern pretty shitty due to the lack of Force of Will.
Many matchups revolve around who is playing his Brainstorm better which means that people are challenged to maximize their cardquality better than the other player.
But some people still suck and do things like playing Brainstorm in response to their Confidant trigger while being on 18 life for no reason. But you only play Brainstorm when you really need it and your hand has no alternatives to offer. Good players that make Top8s from time to time often know how to play their Brainstorms correctly which is also a part of their success.

But the real reason for Blue being so popular was Mental Misstep. They banned it, but as Hof said, Snapcaster and Delver of Secrets have been 2 other great cards for Blue decks.

Brainstorm is a format-defining card, like P9, Bazaars and Shops are for Vintage.

Banning Brainstorm would make some decks extremely inconsistent. And then you might as well play crap that does not draw cards outside of the drawstep like Zoo, Dragonstompy and other aggrodecks. Or decks that are heavy on mulligans like Belcher.

I don't want to play Legacy when it boils down to "who has the better opening hand and/or who rips better from the top".

I'd also predict a heavy dominance of Green Sun's Zenith-decks because they will be the only decks that are then always be able to fetch what they need. Additionally, the number of Zeniths in the deck remains constant, which means you are virtually - VIRTUALLY - running up to 8 copies of a certain green creature.

I think the format is currently at a healthy equilibrium. Banning Brainstorm would degenerate it.

[Gui]

Leave the format if Brainstorm is banned? Since when the anti-whiners began to whine?

ZERO decks will be dead if Brainstorm is gone, and you'll jave have to chose which one you think is less lame between Ponder, Preordain or any other cantrip legacy offers.


That said, banning stuff like this because it's unbalanced is utopian. There will always be a dominant strategy in such a complex game.

[wizard_of_gore]

Ok, let's ban brainstorm. But return us mystical tutor and survival of the fittest!!!

[Adan]

Leave the format if Brainstorm is banned? Since when the anti-whiners began to whine?

ZERO decks will be dead if Brainstorm is gone, and you'll jave have to chose which one you think is less lame between Ponder, Preordain or any other cantrip legacy offers.

This is a very superficial thesis. Brainstorm allows several decks to shift gears. I often sat there and kept a completely wrong hand against a certain matchup because I didn't scout enough, had my opponent on something else because they rotate a lot or because my memory sucked. Let's assume you keep a hand with 2 dead Swords to Plowshares against ANT.
Or as an ANT player, you keep a hand with a lot of Duress-effects against Goblins where you don't need it.

Without Brainstorm turning these cards into useful ones, you will most likely lose because your hand was not geared to disrupt your opponent enough or was too slow etc.

Preordain or Ponder can't ever fix this problem. I also wasn't saying that decks will be dead, but banning Brainstorm will make you highly dependant on your opening hand. I already think that these screw-flood-issues already decide enough games in Legacy. Banning Brainstorm will also amp up this variance.

That said, banning stuff like this because it's unbalanced is utopian. There will always be a dominant strategy in such a complex game.

I agree. Although Brainstorm is not a strategy by itself, it supports many strategies that simply become worse when they would ban it. And then other strategies will rise up.

edit: Natural Order decks would also suck if Brainstorm was banned. Once Progenitus is stuck in your hand, your strategy is dead. Would you play See Beyond? Or Thirst for Knowledge? I doubt it. There are also some weird scenarios when playing ANT and you have your singleton Ad Nauseam in your hand and planned to go LED LED IT for it. Won't ever work again in that game with Brainstorm banned.

Some decks and strategies can just brick at random if they would not have Brainstorm in them.
Banning Brainstorm would significantly decrease the amount of playable/competitive decks.

[Izor]

@ Adan:

I agree that Brainstorm doesn't need to be banned, but still your argumentation is highly biased and not objective. In every situation where you used the term 'Legacy', the term 'blue deck in Legacy' would suit much better. You talk only about what the poor blue control decks would have to suffer if it was gone. You don't even seem to take non-blue decks in Legacy for serious:

Banning Brainstorm would make some decks extremely inconsistent. And then you might as well play crap that does not draw cards outside of the drawstep like Zoo, Dragonstompy and other aggrodecks. Or decks that are heavy on mulligans like Belcher.

Those decks aren't crap. They're established parts of the metagame and it is (or would be) very unfortunate if Brainstorm invalidated all of them.

Everything you mentioned is actually a perfect argumentation for the 'Ban Brainstorm' cries. It fixes your draws to an extent where Blue decks are just always better than non-blue decks. You say that Legacy decks (again, actually only 'Blue decks') would have to rely too much on their opening hand and sometimes get screwed, flooded or simply drawing the double StpS against combo and such.

Maybe it's exactly that what the 'Haters' don't like. Zoo decks do draw the Path against Storm and can't help it. They can't keep one-landers. Thise people may say that this game is about drawing well, or bad sometimes. And that you simply have dead cards or bad draws and matchups sometimes. And they actually have a valid point there.


Again, I'm not saying I want BS to be banned. I'm playing it myself. But still we may not have such bisaed arguments if we want to objectively evaluate it. There definitely is some truth in Brainstorm being somewhat overpowered.

[alderon666]

I hate how blue gets all the toys to play with while other colors are left as support colors.

Just imagine if Snapcaster mage was printed as a red card for 1R. Red had a lot of cards that give flashback like Recoup and some creatures with flash like Viashino Bladescout (I had Sulfur Elemental but then realized that was from Planar Chaos...), so no violation of the color pie there.

Then it could be used in aggro deck as a duder that could get you back a removal/burn. Totally fair right? It would be probably played in some blue decks, but not being a possible pitch to Force would make a huge difference. But still, totally fair right?

BUT NO! Let's just print the damn thing as blue card!

[f|i[p]]

Blue has always been the strongest color in magic...

Honestly speaking, I've always hated brainstorm as it does so many things for a 1 mana instant...even if people keep on saying that its not used properly blah blah blah... Obviously, I am not a blue mage...

Its one of the cards that can actually make blue run 18 lands...and not really suffer much from it..
as compared to thoughtseize or other 1 mana spells... it draws you a card.. filters your hand, digs 3 cards deep..hides your stuff,.. and it doesn't even cost 2 life to do so and can be used as an instant... It just does so many things that its really really annoying for 1 mana instant....

However I have learned to live with it for 7 years or so ...but it doesn't mean that I don't find it annoying and over powered for a 1 mana spell...

I don't really care much if its banned or not...but if people were to ask me.. if its ban worthy.. I would definitely say yes...and if it does get banned, I am sure that it will affect ton's of blue based decks...

[Gheizen64]

edit: Natural Order decks would also suck if Brainstorm was banned. Once Progenitus is stuck in your hand, your strategy is dead. Would you play See Beyond? Or Thirst for Knowledge? I doubt it. There are also some weird scenarios when playing ANT and you have your singleton Ad Nauseam in your hand and planned to go LED LED IT for it. Won't ever work again in that game with Brainstorm banned.

Some decks and strategies can just brick at random if they would not have Brainstorm in them.
Banning Brainstorm would significantly decrease the amount of playable/competitive decks.

I think everyone would be happier by seeing SnT and NO strategies weakened, those are pretty dumb and often require some awkwards cards in the main to be answered, not to talk about $$$ karakas. All the other things you said looks like positive things to me. Blue decks not being able to keep 1-lander or not able to hide bombs or reshuffle the wrong answers? May god protect us from all those dreadful things that aren't an issue for us superior blue mages and leave the peasants in the dirt (note that blue mages never had that ability before fetch were printed).

lol

[CorpT]

This is a very superficial thesis. Brainstorm allows several decks to shift gears. I often sat there and kept a completely wrong hand against a certain matchup because I didn't scout enough, had my opponent on something else because they rotate a lot or because my memory sucked. Let's assume you keep a hand with 2 dead Swords to Plowshares against ANT.
Or as an ANT player, you keep a hand with a lot of Duress-effects against Goblins where you don't need it.

Without Brainstorm turning these cards into useful ones, you will most likely lose because your hand was not geared to disrupt your opponent enough or was too slow etc.

Preordain or Ponder can't ever fix this problem. I also wasn't saying that decks will be dead, but banning Brainstorm will make you highly dependant on your opening hand. I already think that these screw-flood-issues already decide enough games in Legacy. Banning Brainstorm will also amp up this variance.

Some decks and strategies can just brick at random if they would not have Brainstorm in them.
Banning Brainstorm would significantly decrease the amount of playable/competitive decks.

Thanks for all the arguments for banning Brainstorm. I suppose if you had defined "Legacy decks" as only playing Blue, you'd be right, banning Brainstorm would decrease the amount of playable decks. But you defined "Legacy decks" as decks of all colors, you'd be wrong.

Brainstorm is the card that makes not-playing Blue stupid. That means that 4 out of 5 colors are simply support colors for Blue. And you think that putting Blue down with the rest of the unwashed masses would decrease the amount of playable decks? I think it would only increase the amount of playable decks because then other colors would be playable and deckbuilding wouldn't being with 4x Brainstorm + Blue lands.

[Mr. Safety]

Brainstorm is only as powerful as it is because of it's relationship to other cards. In and of itself, Brainstorm is actually quite fair. What people need to do is worry about what Brainstorm is getting, not Brainstorm itself.

I'm going to 'throw out' some discussion points, feel free to agree/disagree/contribute, but I think it's a closed case. Brainstorm is powerful, but not too powerful. Players need to start making better decisions rather than holler for Brainstorm to be banned.

1) Imagine if fetchlands didn't exist. In that fantasy world, Brainstorm isn't any better than Ponder, and Ponder is arguably better because you can shuffle away the top 3 cards if they don't have anything useful. Fetchland synergy makes Brainstorm better. Not broken, just better.

2) Brainstorm can be an instant-speed way to gain an answer to a problematic situation (by getting counterspells, removal, etc.) but those are the problem cards...not Brainstorm. Figure out how to beat those cards.

3) Saying 'ban Brainstorm' is like saying 'don't use glue in furniture, only screws and nails'. With Brainstorm being the proverbial glue, legacy without Brainstorm would feel like sitting in a chair with no glue, just screws or nails. Something about trusting my 200 lbs to a chair with only one support system seems a little risky.

[DragoFireheart]

I'll agree to see Brainstorm banned if Aether Vial, Lion's Eye Diamond, and Wild Nactal are also banned. Deal?

Honestly, go play Modern if blue decks upset you that much.

Edit: If Brainstorm gets banned, I'll just play casual and EDH(Commander) from here on out.

[Grillo]

I don't think Brainstorm is going to be banned any time soon. And I don't think it should.
But if it were banned it would make me like legacy a lot less.

I play eternal format mainly because I like playing powerful decks filled with powerful cards. I play Vintage, Legacy and Commander.

Legacy in particular is very fun to play, because it lets me use 4 copies of cards that are restricted in Vintage. Brainstorm being one of the most notable.

Real eternal formats (not Modern) will always have blue decks and combo decks at its core unless Wizards bans half the card pool available to them (Modern is basically this).

My $0.02