Legacy is doomed. SCG jumping on board the "Ban Brainstorm" wagon. :(

[thefringthing]

It would be nice if R&D would be a little more careful with printing cards with serious implications for Legacy. Mechanically, Snapcaster Mage ought to be red, and printing a flying blue Wild Nacatl was kind of silly. (And we know what Mental Misstep did to the format.) These cards are interesting in Standard, but because Development doesn't test Eternal formats much, we have to live with some poor decisions.

There are a lot of interesting options for cards that hose Brainstorm. Maybe a Chains of Mephistopheles type of effect on a red creature? A black instant that says, "Until the end of the turn, if a player would draw a card other than their first card drawn in their draw step, instead he or she does not."? There are a lot of options.

One issue is that it's tricky to print things to hose blue that aren't good in blue decks. (You don't want your hoser card to just be tech for the mirror.)

[(nameless one)]

Even though I rarely play blue, I would be sad if Brainstorm got the hammer.

Hopefully we're just having an SDT or Goblin Lackey moment with Brainstorm.

[Mr. Safety]

HOW are you playing AROUND Wild Nacatl?

Are you joking or asking a serious question? If you read the whole post, I explained exactly what I meant by 'playing around' a card.

[Mr. Safety]

I do.

Most obvious scenario is playing Storm combo. You really need to get that Force off their hands! But if they have U up I just play Ponder or play a fetch and pass, then I wait for them to tap out for Stoneforge or whatever. Only then I Duress getting that Force for sure.

You need to start playtesting with Gitaxian Probe, my friend.

I'd be much more worried about Spell Snare hitting a ritual/Burning Wish or Spell Pierce doing the same. By passing the turn, you are essentially allowing them to Brainstorm on the end of your turn anyways and digging for more control. Allowing them to untap their lands and have mana open for Counterspell (getting more play time lately) as well as Brainstorm to find Force...you're in a bad spot regardless in this scenario. Gitaxian Probe would be pretty useful here, allowing you to see their hand for free and potentially drawing more gas. Then you would know if it's safe to combo out. If there is a problematic card (Force) then you can use your Duress on this turn to rob the card and go. Waiting an unneccessary turn when playing combo vs. control seems kind of bad... just my opinion here.

[Rizso]

I think its quite funny tbh. SCG is geting top 8s with their regualary people who all play blue, not really strange that blue is constanly showing. If alot more of the scg players would get established with decks like GW-Maverick who got great matchups against blue decks.

[Gheizen64]

You know banning brainstorm neuters control much more than it neuters combo? (e.g. ANT player Duress, takes Force, or goes off and the control player was only able to Ponder/Preordain into what he thinks is the correct card to hold in hand).

All the blue-haters (namely aggro non-blue players) will be in for this ban, and when brainstorm is banned, be prepared for combo to be much more powerful than ever, and we will see even more bannings to balance the format. If you think that brainstorm is the reason why the format is blue-dominant and broken, you are right in some respect, but this is an eternal format. With brainstorm gone, the format needs ALOT more cards to be banned for balancing purposes. If the DCI announced the banning of Brainstorm, they better justify that with more bannings because it would show that they are incompetent at understanding that the format isn't impacted by one-card, namely Brainstorm, but rather the format is impacted by the interactions of many cards.

If brainstorm gets banned, the future banning will be a little like Modern, where they have to mini-ban and monitor the format constantly to make sure it's balanced. I doubt more good comes with banning brainstorm than keeping it around. I will say that Brainstorm is incredibly powerful, up there with Force of Will, Natural Order, Dark Ritual, SDT, LED etc, Goyf, Bob. But it's nowhere as powerful as cards that deserved bans e.g. Survival, Flash, etc

Honestly i think an hypotetical brainstorm ban would hurt those decks, from most to less:

- SnT, NO, Reanimator and most non storm-combo based in blue. Inability to reshuffle extra combo pieces for more protection, inability to protect the single combo piece from discard.
- Storm combo. More vulnerable to discard, unable to exchange chaff (lands and unneeded spells) for more gas.
- U Based Control. Leaving U for countering is no more always the correct play with no BS since you have only decent sorcery cantrips now
- U Based Tempo. Same as control, but those decks are usually penalized less by tapping out since they run less hard counters and more free spells and creatures/proactive spells (like TA)
- Merfolk. With an hypotetical decrease of blue, merfolk would lose some of its appeal as a blue predator (which is also blue blue blue blue)
- Non blue decks. Dredge is also included here.

As for the argument of BS is only good as the card you draw. You know what else is good only as the other cards you can play? Every single card in magic. Can we stop using this retarded argument? It's perfectly applicable to cards like Ancestral and every engine ever from Necro to Bargain to Will.

The only argument we should use is "would the format be better without BS"? "would it be more varied?" etc...
Before Snapcaster and Delver and the MM ban, i was pretty sure a ban of brainstorm would have shifted the format away from its blue dominance and would have opened a lot of design space for decks. Now with those new absurd blue cards in the pool and MM gone (meaning combo again interact only with blue) i'm pretty sure the format would remain totally blue dominated anyway, so i see a lot less merit of an hypotetical brainstorm ban.

Thanks WotC for having printed good cards that should have been red and are blue instead!

[Amon Amarth]

If they wanted reduce the number of non-Blue decks in Legacy there are other options. I really hope they don't ban Brainstorm. Where would people play with it? It's not like we're talking about some new card; this is Brainstorm. I'm also really concerned about runaway bannings like what happened with Modern. They seem way too ban happy these days.

[Mr. Safety]

As for the argument of BS is only good as the card you draw. You know what else is good only as the other cards you can play? Every single card in magic. Can we stop using this retarded argument? It's perfectly applicable to cards like Ancestral and every engine ever from Necro to Bargain to Will.

I'm not following you here...Necropotence and Yawgmoth's Bargain are 1-card combos. Play them and win. Brainstorm isn't anywhere near that powerful. Yawgmoth's Will needs a setup to work well, making it more than a 1 card combo. Past in Flames is a new option to use in lieu of Yawgmoth's Will that is at the center of a Brain Freeze based storm engine.

The argument seems pretty straightforward, and actually quite non-retarded. Gun's that shoot blanks are not dangerous. Guns that shoot 9mm hollow-points are dangerous.

Seems sound to me...but yes, I speak retarded very well. It's my second language.

[Rizso]

At least brainstorm gives the metagame alot predictions. Brainstorm does give a established metagame. And still people fight fow with fow.

[alderon666]

You need to start playtesting with Gitaxian Probe, my friend.

I'd be much more worried about Spell Snare hitting a ritual/Burning Wish or Spell Pierce doing the same. By passing the turn, you are essentially allowing them to Brainstorm on the end of your turn anyways and digging for more control. Allowing them to untap their lands and have mana open for Counterspell (getting more play time lately) as well as Brainstorm to find Force...you're in a bad spot regardless in this scenario. Gitaxian Probe would be pretty useful here, allowing you to see their hand for free and potentially drawing more gas. Then you would know if it's safe to combo out. If there is a problematic card (Force) then you can use your Duress on this turn to rob the card and go. Waiting an unneccessary turn when playing combo vs. control seems kind of bad... just my opinion here.

I'm sorry, I can't respond to that post without resorting to flaming.



I don't know if printing hose cards against blue is the way to go. I think non-blue decks need solid creatures/spell that are exceptionally good against blue and decent against everything else.

I mean, Pyroblast is pretty popular but maybe quality cards are better than straight up Choke-like sideboard cards.

[Mr. Safety]

I'm sorry, I can't respond to that post without resorting to flaming.

That's unfortunate...I thought it was a good discussion. No matter how wrong I may be, intelligent discussion is always appreciated.

[alderon666]

That's unfortunate...I thought it was a good discussion. No matter how wrong I may be, intelligent discussion is always appreciated.

Dude, you asked for a situation where you would play around BS. I gave you a perfectly fine example. Then you come and tell me how I should be playing my deck and others cards I should be playing? Really?

[Mr. Safety]

Dude, you asked for a situation where you would play around BS. I gave you a perfectly fine example. Then you come and tell me how I should be playing my deck and others cards I should be playing? Really?

I didn't ask for a specific situation...I asked what I thought was a rhetorical question. I didn't mean to tell you how to play your deck. ALl instances of 'you' were just for the sake of explanation in a general sense, not specifically targeting you. I also ended it with 'just my opinion'. That is not ordering, commanding, or even suggesting that you do a certain thing. I was stating how I would face a given situation.

Regardless, *raising white flag*. Sorry I offended you...it was not my intent.

[death]

Yadda yadda yadda ...

It would be nice if R&D would be a little more careful with printing cards with serious implications for Legacy. Mechanically, Snapcaster Mage ought to be red, and printing a flying blue Wild Nacatl was kind of silly. (And we know what Mental Misstep did to the format.) These cards are interesting in Standard, but because Development doesn't test Eternal formats much, we have to live with some poor decisions.

I'd like to echo this sentiment. If they haven't learned their lesson well with Jace TMS I sure hope that they do now. They have been pushing the blue color these past few cycles and players are only getting annoyed by this. Mental Misstep, Snapcaster Mage and Insectile Aberration should be the end. Brainstorm isn't the card they want to ban on a whim, in the long run the repercussions of banning it could be detrimental to the health of the format. Of course we can't really predict what will happen for sure until we're already there and the format is dead. That said, I don't encourage banning of Brainstorm.

I still have faith in the R&D department and I'm hoping there will be changes in the coming months that will restore balance. Through the years I've followed the format grow since the SCG Open started, if there's one thing I've learned it's that hive mentality is strong in the States. News flash: Here and in this format you will find exactzies repeating in the finals. I mean 75 cards with singleton Temporal Spring, fuck! Really?

Why not stop being lazy and instead of netdecking and/or whining around town, adapt, playtest, innovate?

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I wouldn't have blinked if Wizards had banned Brainstorm before they printed two really good blue creatures that have a shit-ton of synergy with the card.

Banning Brainstorm at this point seems like common sense.

[Aggro_zombies]

Why not stop being lazy and instead of netdecking and/or whining around town, adapt, playtest, innovate?

This doesn't really happen in Standard and there are far more people playing that format than Legacy. Usually when you see a new deck do well at a large tournament it's the product of one of a handful of deck designers or a one-hit wonder that can only be successfully piloted by the dude who placed with it.

I mean, didn't LaPille's recent article about why Modern blows chalk up the lack of interest in that format to a lack of stock lists for people to copy? When R&D is handwaving away a format sucking by saying the player base is too lazy to innovate or come up with something themselves, you know you have a problem.

[TsumiBand]

This doesn't really happen in Standard and there are far more people playing that format than Legacy. Usually when you see a new deck do well at a large tournament it's the product of one of a handful of deck designers or a one-hit wonder that can only be successfully piloted by the dude who placed with it.

I mean, didn't LaPille's recent article about why Modern blows chalk up the lack of interest in that format to a lack of stock lists for people to copy? When R&D is handwaving away a format sucking by saying the player base is too lazy to innovate or come up with something themselves, you know you have a problem.

Yeah LaPille's commentary on that article was despicable. "What, you guys. We banned all the unfun cards, now that you don't have to worry about good control OR good combo you can't come up with anything? Buncha sheeple."

I want to jump on the "Merfolk doesn't play it" argument re: Brainstorm, but I doubt that would cut it this time. When SCG moves on something it tends to be a result of information from up the stream - their goofball Legacy buylist preceded by a giant hike in the price of Modern staples, before it was a real format, was almost catering to the bandwagoneers. Unless they have a bunch of bald triplets sitting in a vat of goo predicting the future I can only assume they were just privy to a certain kind of information and moved on it. I hesitate to think that someone with their weight in the community just jumps on a topic like "Ban Brainstorm" without talking to someone upstream.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Since there's no good reason for Merfolk to not play Brainstorm, I think that argument kind of sucked in the first place.

[nedleeds]

When I read the SCG event coverage and these are the kind of plays I'm looking at from the Quarterfinals and on... It doesn't really make me want to give a crap about what the opinions coming from said SCG results are showing anyone...

Quarterfinals: Alex Bertoncini vs. Tony Murata

(Tries to rush the KotR under no pressure played right into a Daze. He even lucks out and gets it back a turn later from Exhume, and apparently even though he's got the StP in hand... Decides to wait until after Gitaxias draws before trying to remove him? To the shock and awe of precisely zero people, it gets FoW'd after the draw 7.)

Anyway... On topic, banning Brainstorm would be dumb as hell. Would I rage quit over it all Hollywood drama style? Nah. But I'd probably have to take a little bit of a break to seriously re-evaluate exactly what format WotC has left me in which I can actually enjoy and play the cards I want to.

Plucking the top card of the deck into his hand before anyone could stop him…Harrison skipped right past his Summoner's Pact trigger and was issued a death by game state.

This kind of gaff gets you laughed at in your local game store. Here we have the pioneers and "pros" of the format. Are they high? Drunk?

[menace13]

Weeeeeee! Again with the ban Brainstorm Threads.