Ban on Brainstorm: Yes or No (Post Snapcaster Mage)

[Solaran_X]

Brainstorm right now is in the same position Survival of the Fittest was in when it got banned.

Like Survival, Brainstorm itself isn't the issue. In a vacuum, both cards are fair and fine. However, Magic is not a vacuum. While the cards themselves are fair and fine, it's what they have the potential of doing that is why they need dealt with.

Before Vengevine, no one was calling for Survival to be banned despite a solid half dozen decks using the Survival engine. But after Vengevine, the cries for the banning of Survival drowned out everything else (never mind that Survival wasn't the issue, Vengevine was).

Now we have Brainstorm in the same position. Before Snapcaster Mage, you had four Brainstorms to use to combat discard effects and smooth out bad draws by Brainstorming away bad cards and cracking a fetch to shuffle them away. Now we have Snapcaster Mage giving us a potential EIGHT Brainstorms in one deck. Have a bad hand, but already used Brainstorm? No problem...opponent's EOT, Flash in Snapcaster Mage and then Flashback Brainstorm. Problem solved. Win condition in hand and opponent casts Thoughtseize? 1UU Brainstorm on a stick coming up.

Honestly, I find it funny that the same people who cried for Survival to be banned are fighting the threat of a banned Brainstorm in Legacy tooth and nail while both cards are in the same prebanning position right now. I find the hypocrisy hilarious.

[Solar Ice]

Honestly, I find it funny that the same people who cried for Survival to be banned are fighting the threat of a banned Brainstorm in Legacy tooth and nail while both cards are in the same prebanning position right now. I find the hypocrisy hilarious.

Don't know about the others, but I was one of those who was not in favour of a Survival ban at all.

[SpikeyMikey]

Solaran: The thing is, while you're masturbating with Brainstorming for the 8th time, your opponent is busy casting things that win. There's a limit to how much manipulation you can have before your threat density drops too low to function. Snapcaster is flavor of the month. 3 months from now, it'll be as heavily played as Hive Mind is. Remember when that was the unstoppable juggernaut?

I'm not sure when it happened, but Legacy became the format of Chicken Littles at some point.

[Sims]

Honestly, I find it funny that the same people who cried for Survival to be banned are fighting the threat of a banned Brainstorm in Legacy tooth and nail while both cards are in the same prebanning position right now. I find the hypocrisy hilarious.

I find it to be par for the course, honestly.

A dangerous precident has been set, as it seems more than anything that "bitch til it's banned" is a legitimate strategy so that people don't have to adapt and can just sheeple the SCG Crew. Worked for Survival (instead of vine), Worked for Mental Misstep.... But all of a sudden they start crying on the Circuit over a card that is near and dear (more so than Survival) to people hearts.... How can you ban a common? A Common that's been unbanned since Ice Age and never has been seen as a threat desptie being head and shoulders above anything else with a comparable ability, arguably including Ancestral itself with or without a fetchland. A common that's actually Restricted in Vintage at that.

tl;dr: Card probably should have been banned back when it was restricted in vintage, but honestly at this point I couldn't care less.

Edit:

I'm not sure when it happened, but Legacy became the format of Chicken Littles at some point.

September 2004, when everyone saw they left Survival, LED, and Lackey unbanned.

[Admiral_Arzar]

Why is there no "ban Snapcaster Mage" choice in this poll?

[TheyCallMeTim]

All these recent bans came down too quickly. Was Survival dominant? Yes. Misstep found in every deck? Yes. But give the format a chance to adapt. This big legacy ship has frequently corrected itself when given time.

[Solaran_X]

All these recent bans came down too quickly. Was Survival dominant? Yes. Misstep found in every deck? Yes. But give the format a chance to adapt. This big legacy ship has frequently corrected itself when given time.

I wouldn't even have called Survival "dominant." At the height of it's "dominance," Survival was accounting for only a bit more than 18% of all Top 8 finishes reported on TC Decks during it's 5 month run from GP: Columbus until being banned in December. It's overall Top 8 shows as reported on TC Decks was only around 14%.

[CorpT]

Tell me CorpT, why should I play an aggro deck that beats up on blue decks but auto-loses to combo when I could play a blue deck or a combo deck that doesn't auto-lose to anything?

I'm really not sure what you're trying to prove, but IMO, it is stupid to play anything but blue now. That's the issue I, and others, have with blue. I didn't like Standard when it was play Caw Blade or you're stupid. And I'm frustrated with Legacy when it is play Blue or you're stupid. I'm not arguing for color parity. I'm not arguing for blue to be nerfed into oblivion. I'm arguing for more balance than 85%/30% and/or good, non-blue cards.

[DragoFireheart]

I'm really not sure what you're trying to prove, but IMO, it is stupid to play anything but blue now. That's the issue I, and others, have with blue. I didn't like Standard when it was play Caw Blade or you're stupid. And I'm frustrated with Legacy when it is play Blue or you're stupid. I'm not arguing for color parity. I'm not arguing for blue to be nerfed into oblivion. I'm arguing for more balance than 85%/30% and/or good, non-blue cards.

That was some amazing side-stepping you did there. Lets try again:

Tell me CorpT, why should I play an aggro deck that beats up on blue decks but auto-loses to combo when I could play a blue deck or a combo deck that doesn't auto-lose to anything?

[CorpT]

That was some amazing side-stepping you did there. Lets try again:

Tell me CorpT, why should I play an aggro deck that beats up on blue decks but auto-loses to combo when I could play a blue deck or a combo deck that doesn't auto-lose to anything?

You shouldn't. You should play blue. I have no idea where you're going with this, but I'm not side-stepping anything. Play blue.

[Sims]

That was some amazing side-stepping you did there. Lets try again:

Tell me CorpT, why should I play an aggro deck that beats up on blue decks but auto-loses to combo when I could play a blue deck or a combo deck that doesn't auto-lose to anything?

And you're badgering on him for a point that I didn't even see him make.

He's saying blue is too strong, there's no poit not playing blue. Which is basically what you're asking, why play a deck that doesn't run blue.

It's like you're trying to interrogate someone who is agreeing with you.

[TheyCallMeTim]

I wouldn't even have called Survival "dominant." At the height of it's "dominance," Survival was accounting for only a bit more than 18% of all Top 8 finishes reported on TC Decks during it's 5 month run from GP: Columbus until being banned in December. It's overall Top 8 shows as reported on TC Decks was only around 14%.

Once Vengevine found it's way in, it was over 75% of the top 8's I attended in the North East. That's all I meant when I said "dominant". Nonetheless, this only furthers my point that the format could've adapted and remained healthy in an environment in which Survival and Vengevines were combining for a hasty 16/16. If Survival, Misstep, Snapcaster (Delver, etc.) and Mystical Tutor all existed simultaneously, we would be looking at something much different yes, but perhaps something which would "seek its own level".

Btw, I'd like to add that the current format is pretty healthy. When was the last time we had 7+ Decks to Beat?

[DragoFireheart]

You shouldn't. You should play blue. I have no idea where you're going with this, but I'm not side-stepping anything. Play blue.

-Why should I play blue? Because non-blue aggro is bad? Because combo can kill you without counters on turn 1,2, or 3? Because you believe blue is the best color?

[ddt15]

Personally I think Brianstorm was ok-ish, albeit overpowered, as we had all accepted that blue was the color with the best spells. Problem is that blue now also has some of the best creatures.

The demise of red is largely because Goblins is seeing much less play. As a Goblins player I think this is more due to Stoneforge Mystic, as it is pretty hard for Gobs to combat both Goyf/Knight and Stoneforge at the same time.

Red could use some love though. Reds best creature is still Goblin Lackey, it has been since Scourge. Unlike the old days there are a million and one answers to it now. Mostly due to the ever increasing power of 2 cmc creatures that can win games by themselves. (Ofc they could unban recruiter but noone wants to wait 25 mins while the Gobs player stacks his whole deck, then again, is this different from playing against, say, High Tide?).

[CorpT]

-Why should I play blue? Because non-blue aggro is bad? Because combo can kill you without counters on turn 1,2, or 3? Because you believe blue is the best color?

Because you want to win?

Look, can you just tell me what you want me to say, so I can say it and you can say "ah-ha, gotcha!" That would probably save a lot of back and forth.

[Sims]

-Why should I play blue? Because non-blue aggro is bad? Because combo can kill you without counters on turn 1,2, or 3? Because you believe blue is the best color?

Objection, your honor. Badgering the witness.

You should play blue because it is the strongest color. Why play a non-blue deck when all of the strongest creatures are easily splashable into a blue control or tempo shell?

The issue is that blue has not only gotten new goodies, and not just that blue was already head and shoulders above other colors, but that all of the best cards from the other colors are easily splashable into a blue deck. 1G for Goyf, 1B for Bob.... What point do I have playing without blue when i can play the best creatures printed in Magic along with the best card selection and protection?

edit:

Because you want to win?

Look, can you just tell me what you want me to say, so I can say it and you can say "ah-ha, gotcha!" That would probably save a lot of back and forth.

He wants you to say because Combo is too strong.

[Honorik]

I was playing at GP Amsterdam with my BWR hatebear vial deck finishing 4 - 3 - 1 day 1 and dropped. I played against exact 1 /one/ non Brainstorm deck.

Round 1 - counterbalance
Round 2 - show and tell
Round 3 - bant
Round 4 - bant
Round 5 - ANT
Round 6 - Landstill
Round 7 - Elves !!!!
Round 8 - Team Amerika

It's not even fynny. The number of Brainstorms and Ponsers that was resolved against me was really huge. I manage to beat some of this blue decks somehow, was happy with my deck, but at the end i have the feeling I am doing it wrong. My deck was with 20 lands and 4 vials, playing 2 tops.

So in non blue deck, if i want to stay consistente, I have no other choice but to run top, Sylvan Labrary or Mirri's Guile and no one of them is close to BS or ponder in terms of power, let alone the fact that those thing don't resolve so often vs the blue field. Also I noticed how weak is Thoughtseize, the best discard spell, thanks to BS.

The most powerfull things in this game are positioned in 2 colors - blue and black. While the black have so much cards banned, most of the powerfull blue spells are all legal. All cantrips all legal, all of the counter spells are legal /yeah mana drain is not, tnx God/, some of the best card drawning spells are legal...

Legacy as a format it's very hard to be kept in balance. New sets come, more and more powerfull creatures appear, some of the old card become less and less powerfull or completly broken and metagame warping. Nothing wrong with that - that's why they have the banned list.

But at the end I have the bad feeling that more cards should be banned - like Show and Tell for example. While Swords, Bolts, Hymn, Seize, FoW, Daze and other staples stay the same and doing the same, other cards just reach the ********. Brainstorm is one of those cards in my opinion. Legacy envolves and the best card that search for answers become stronger and stronger. There is not a point to not play it.

So my Vote is YES !

The blue is so powerfull so lets unban Goblin recruiter ? A non - blue deck will come out ! They unbanned Time Spiral this year, a blue spell that create the one more Brainstorm deck, so what's wrong with this little goblin ?

[DragoFireheart]

Because you want to win?

- I do want to win. That doesn't mean blue is suddenly the best deck because I want to win.

Look, can you just tell me what you want me to say, so I can say it and you can say "ah-ha, gotcha!" That would probably save a lot of back and forth.

- You are a hypocrite. Constantly I have seen you on your little crusade against "blue", questioning blue and claiming that X card makes it broken. First, MMS, now BS. Yet the moment anyone questions you, you dance around the issues they have with you.

Now, if you want to actually talk about the issue and stop acting like a politician, answer the questions honestly instead of pretending to be ignorant of what I am talking about. Lets try one more time:

-Why should I play blue? What is it about blue that makes me want to play it right now in the current meta?

[TheDarkshineKnight]

I find it to be par for the course, honestly.

A dangerous precident has been set, as it seems more than anything that "bitch til it's banned" is a legitimate strategy so that people don't have to adapt and can just sheeple the SCG Crew. Worked for Survival (instead of vine), Worked for Mental Misstep.... But all of a sudden they start crying on the Circuit over a card that is near and dear (more so than Survival) to people hearts.... How can you ban a common? A Common that's been unbanned since Ice Age and never has been seen as a threat desptie being head and shoulders above anything else with a comparable ability, arguably including Ancestral itself with or without a fetchland. A common that's actually Restricted in Vintage at that.

tl;dr: Card probably should have been banned back when it was restricted in vintage, but honestly at this point I couldn't care less.

Edit:


September 2004, when everyone saw they left Survival, LED, and Lackey unbanned.

Honestly, though, can you say that banning Vengevine would have been the correct choice over banning Survival? Vengevine wasn't inherently broken, it just happened to push Survival of the Fittest over the top. Had Vengevine been banned, sure, Survival would have been fine again, but Survival's one of those cards that you just know something's going to be printed in the future that will break it again. At that point, you can either ban the new card that makes Survival broken, or realize that banning a bunch of cards simply to keep one archetype around is silly and therefore ban Survival and unban everything that was banned to keep the card in the format.

If a card is shown to be too good of an engine, you need to ban the engine itself. Otherwise, you'll just find yourself banning every single new card that brings the engine over the top.

So, I guess we're at a crossroads at the moment with respect to what need to be banned if we follow this line of reasoning. Is Brainstorm the enabler and Snapcaster Mage the engine? Is Snapcaster Mage the enabler and Brainstorm the engine? Or are they both engines which simply happen to enable each other? If the first, Snapcaster Mage needs to be banned. If the second, Brainstorm needs to be banned. If the third, both Snacpaster AND Brainstorm need to be banned.

[DragoFireheart]

Objection, your honor. Badgering the witness.

You should play blue because it is the strongest color. Why play a non-blue deck when all of the strongest creatures are easily splashable into a blue control or tempo shell?

- I would play a non-blue deck in a meta full of blue decks because it crushes them with ease. Maverick. Zoo.

The issue is that blue has not only gotten new goodies, and not just that blue was already head and shoulders above other colors, but that all of the best cards from the other colors are easily splashable into a blue deck. 1G for Goyf, 1B for Bob.... What point do I have playing without blue when i can play the best creatures printed in Magic along with the best card selection and protection?

- Ah, so the issue isn't that blue is strong but the issue actually is that really good creatures can be easily splashed into blue! We are getting closer to the actual problem at hand...

He wants you to say because Combo is too strong.

-That is one reason but it's only partially correct. There are two more answers.