[Deck] Dredge

[HokusSchmokus]

Since I play Manaless list since Konkurs fizzled in the GP I have not stopped by lately, but there are some things I need to adress.
1. Macabre sucks, for stated reasons.
2. Chosen sucks because he does nothing as good as alternative targets:Elesh Norn is better against Aggro, Hyppie and Iona are better against combo.being at 50 life is not autowin Vs combo.
3.I strongly recommend dredgekid to refrain from having targets main.Also, siding out all breakthroughs is not something I would recommend.

lastly I think there are different philosophies when it comes to sideboarding.I was always and am still in the side of having 3-4 solutions and 2 targets Vs most matchups.Since I have only positive experience with that I have not tested 4eaks approach yet, but I believe both are viable.Also, I dont know why people fear leylines so much with this deck.

[Izor]

Also, I dont know why people fear leylines so much with this deck.

Neither do I. But actually, if you're now playing manaless, I guarantee you will fear it.

Also, if you're not satisfied with Konkurs' consistency, I think you should really try 4eak's hybrid list instead of straight manaless. You kinda get the best of both worlds.


And Konkurs is the traditional LEDless list, just for clarification.

[HokusSchmokus]

Neither do I. But actually, if you're now playing manaless, I guarantee you will fear it.

Also, if you're not satisfied with Konkurs' consistency, I think you should really try 4eak's hybrid list instead of straight manaless. You kinda get the best of both worlds.


And Konkurs is the traditional LEDless list, just for clarification.

Wrong. At least the latter is wrong. Konkurs is the GOOD ledless list;)
I might try 4eaks list. The last time I played a list he designed I Top 8ed a GPT, so I really think his lists are good. The Last weeks though, I just copied a list of the person with, as I believe, the most and deepest understanding of this decktype in Europe and perhaps the world. It was kinda hard to resist.

[K1w1]

One important point is, you cant say the lists you copy are the reason to say they are good. You can also just have luck with your opponents. Or you played against not that good players. Its more important to play a list some month. Imo.

[HokusSchmokus]

I know. Every list I played, whether it is my own Or that of someone else is tested intensely. So is the ledless list I played at Amsterdam. That was just bad luck. I am testing a hybrid list right Now, it is close to 4eaks with some tweaks. I will post my list after bannings.

[joeltheeditor]

ok Im just going to go and ask you guys to help me out. Im going to be playing in a tournament this weekend and Im playing dredge no led and firestorm in the MD as well as FKZ in the main because Im expecting a bant and gw maverick heavy meta but I know that a top 16 scg.com finish storm deck/pilot will be there. can you give me any advice against these match ups and any sideboard cards I should be looking at?

my current SB is
4xAncient Grudge
4xFairie Macabre
3xVapor
1xIona
1xElish Norn
1xAngel of Despair
1xTerrastodon

from testing I was noticing that the ooze from the commander decks ruins me. Also sorry for not linking any cards in this thread but Im new to this style of forum and it will take me a bit to get used to it. I promise Im not a scrub and I actually have a lot of ideas that I will contribute but I really want to win this weekend and would appreciate any help.

Fellow Dredger
-Joel

[Mojeh]

I feel that Ancestor's Chosen can be a good choice depending on the meta. At least here in Brazil, we see a lot of Mono Red's, Zoo and Tendrils.

I share dredgekid's strategy of siding out Breakthroughs almost every G2 and G3, because you'll have to worry about grave sweepers very often, and you don't wanna get caught without hand when a Relic or Tormod's hits the play.

I played a tournament in my country last weekend, and the deck just disappointed me. I found myself with no dredgers many times. A couple of misplays also helped me making a terrible result. My list was:

Dredgers:
4x Golgari-Grave Troll
4x Stinkweed Imp
3x Golgari Thug
1x Darkblast

Lands:
4x City of Brass
4x Gemstone Mine
4x Cephalid's Coliseum
3x Tarnished Citadel

Discards/Draw:
4x Careful Study
4x Breakthrough
4x Putrid Imp
4x Firestorm

GY Goodies:
4x Bridge from Below
4x Narcomoeba
3x Ichorid
2x Dread Return
4x Cabal Therapy

SB:
4x Nature's Claim
3x Ancient Grudge
1x Ray of Revelation
1x Coffin Purge
2x Purify the Grave
1x Elesh Norn
1x Iona
1x Ancestor's Chosen
1x Realm Razer

I don't know what happened, my dredge number is right I guess, but still I couldn't find them.
Note: I played 2 DR main deck because I needed it's slot in the SB, but it was irrelevant anyway.

[dredgekid]

Since I play Manaless list since Konkurs fizzled in the GP I have not stopped by lately, but there are some things I need to adress.
1. Macabre sucks, for stated reasons.
2. Chosen sucks because he does nothing as good as alternative targets:Elesh Norn is better against Aggro, Hyppie and Iona are better against combo.being at 50 life is not autowin Vs combo.
3.I strongly recommend dredgekid to refrain from having targets main.Also, siding out all breakthroughs is not something I would recommend.

lastly I think there are different philosophies when it comes to sideboarding.I was always and am still in the side of having 3-4 solutions and 2 targets Vs most matchups.Since I have only positive experience with that I have not tested 4eaks approach yet, but I believe both are viable.Also, I dont know why people fear leylines so much with this deck.

If you would look at earlier posts, the meta I play in is an extremely fast, combo based meta. Main deck zealot and sphinx are a necessary evil.

Chosen of course is not as good as the other DR targets. He is, however, versatile. He is extremely good against burn, zoo, affinity, AnT, and Goblins to name a few. Hyppie is very narrow, and usually he is just redundant after you therapy their hand away.

My sideboard plan has worked extremely well for me. If you play breakthrough, end up not being able to go off that turn, and they crypt you; you now have no hand, no graveyard and no board presence. Breakthrough should come out against nearly every deck in my opinion.

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

If you would look at earlier posts, the meta I play in is an extremely fast, combo based meta. Main deck zealot and sphinx are a necessary evil.

Chosen of course is not as good as the other DR targets. He is, however, versatile. He is extremely good against burn, zoo, affinity, AnT, and Goblins to name a few. Hyppie is very narrow, and usually he is just redundant after you therapy their hand away.

My sideboard plan has worked extremely well for me. If you play breakthrough, end up not being able to go off that turn, and they crypt you; you now have no hand, no graveyard and no board presence. Breakthrough should come out against nearly every deck in my opinion.

I can vouch for the combo-infested meta -- ANT/TES and Sneaky Show decks are very common.

GGT doesn't beat said decks.

But that's locally. As a storm combo pilot, I'd rather see an Ancestor's Chosen over FKZ or Sadistic Hypnotist because the latter two are an autoloss.

You can storm enough to kill through a resolved Ancestor's Chosen.

Sadistic Hypnotist rapes your hand 100 percent of the time. Cabal Therapy doesn't always get there.

I'm much more a fan of SH, but that's probably because I'm based in Parcher Dredge.

tldr;

DR targets are strictly a meta-choice. In a perfect world you wouldn't play any. Some days you'll lose the die roll and ANT will get you on turn one. Some days you'll get rocked by Tundra Wolves equipped with Bonesplitter.

[joeltheeditor]

@Ryan/dredgekid- So I was looking at your list from starcity and I think we are within like 3 cards so I have some questions for you. How aggressively do you mulligan? My biggest problems that I have found is G/W and RUG tempo honestly they aren't huge problems but they seem to be the most problematic. What do you sideboard against aggro decks? And is Terastodon bad?

[dredgekid]

@Ryan/dredgekid- So I was looking at your list from starcity and I think we are within like 3 cards so I have some questions for you. How aggressively do you mulligan? My biggest problems that I have found is G/W and RUG tempo honestly they aren't huge problems but they seem to be the most problematic. What do you sideboard against aggro decks? And is Terastodon bad?

Mulliganing, I look for the basic parts of the combo, being a dredger, land and either an enabler or a draw spell. Obviously, in a perfect world it's dredger, land, enabler AND draw spell but we can't all be wizards :D. Usually, my list rarely mulligans past 5 without finding a keep, but I'm fairly conservative and will keep a 5 card hand that has to DDD (unless I know I'm up against belcher, AnT, ect.)

I really haven't had a problem with G/W maverick, and haven't tested enough against RUG tempo (I know, way behind on testing at the moment, but I will being testing a ton this month to prepare for the invitational, so I will post on the RUG matchup for you).

Boarding for agro, I usually end up boarding in grudge to fight their crypts/relics then bring in whichever two DR targets are the most effective, usually some combo of Elesh Norn, Iona or Ancestor's Chosen.

I'm much more a fan of Angel of Despair than Terastodon for the pure fact that it can hit anything. It's the only out to blazing archon, excluding firestorm for 6 and good luck doing that!

On a side note, the Faerie Macabre in my board are now being switched to Purify the Grave as the Macabre performed miserably at SCG KC. Being able to flash back is much more relevant than the fact that Macabre is uncounterable.

[dredgekid]

I can vouch for the combo-infested meta -- ANT/TES and Sneaky Show decks are very common.

GGT doesn't beat said decks.

But that's locally. As a storm combo pilot, I'd rather see an Ancestor's Chosen over FKZ or Sadistic Hypnotist because the latter two are an autoloss.

You can storm enough to kill through a resolved Ancestor's Chosen.

Sadistic Hypnotist rapes your hand 100 percent of the time. Cabal Therapy doesn't always get there.

I'm much more a fan of SH, but that's probably because I'm based in Parcher Dredge.

tldr;

DR targets are strictly a meta-choice. In a perfect world you wouldn't play any. Some days you'll lose the die roll and ANT will get you on turn one. Some days you'll get rocked by Tundra Wolves equipped with Bonesplitter.

The point I was getting at with Ancestor's Chosen over SH was that it was versitile and helped in several matchups. Yes, you can storm for enough to kill me after one DR on the chosen, but if I can manage to recure it multiple times, it's usually game over.

Besides, I always have the turn 2 FZ for 30 against you :D.

[HokusSchmokus]

@dredgekid I read all of your posts, don't worry.At least against GW and Combo I would never ever cut Breakthrough. The ability to race ooze is very important. In other matchups it depends on playstyle. I just like to therapy for hate ,then power through a breakthrough and end the game on the spot. Also I would run Iona main in a Combo infested Meta, but again thats just playstyle.
Agree on the macabre thing BTW,those are awful.

@ Joel
Definately cut the 4th grudge and put in the 4th chain. You need to have it in your opening hand after all. Also cut the macabres for 3 purify/purge.I would add a second Elesh Norn too,for the maverick matchup.

[Gui]

I don't know what happened, my dredge number is right I guess, but still I couldn't find them.
Note: I played 2 DR main deck because I needed it's slot in the SB, but it was irrelevant anyway.

It's not irrelevant. while playing Firestorm, you should do your best to increase your dredger count, because you won't be able to reuse your dredgers after casting firestorm. This is why people cut DR for dredger.

Sadistic Hypnotist rapes your hand 100 percent of the time. Cabal Therapy doesn't always get there.

I say this all the time but people don't believe me =(
DR target against combo == SH

[HokusSchmokus]

It's not irrelevant. while playing Firestorm, you should do your best to increase your dredger count, because you won't be able to reuse your dredgers after casting firestorm. This is why people cut DR for dredger.

Well my reason was that you simply dont need it.
Also, how often do you guys hardcast stuff?

[Vandalize]

Well my reason was that you simply dont need it.
Also, how often do you guys hardcast stuff?

After building with 13 Dredgers (4 Thug +1 Darkblast), it was pretty unusual to keep hands without dredgers (as long as you shuffle well).

I'm using this list at the moment:

4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
4 Cephalid Coliseum
2 Tarnished Citadel
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
4 Ichorid
4 Putrid Imp
4 Tireless Tribe
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Narcomoeba
4 Breakthrough
4 Careful Study
1 Dread Return
1 Darkblast
SB: 4 Nature's Claim
SB: 3 Ancient Grudge
SB: 3 Memory's Journey
SB: 2 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
SB: 1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
SB: 1 Terastodon
SB: 1 Dread Return

Man, Memory's Journey is REALLY better than Purify the Grave or Coffin Purge. You can target the Ichorid or Bridge you're hiding from Surgical Extraction (and make it fizzle), while shuffling up Narcomoebas (don't forget the "up to three" clause in the text). And it comes handy when fighting Reanimator, because you can shuffle multiple threats at once. At last, but not least, things do not go exiled, which can be relevant.

And the cost isn't prohibitive, because we only have 10~11 lands that can produce G, W, B. So it wouldn't matter.

@HokusSchmokus I hardcast Narcomoebas and Golgari Thugs pretty often... But I've also hardcasted some Stinkweed Imps, and hardcasted Dread Return once, lol.

[Mojeh]

@Gui: I mean it was irrelevant because in my previous list the DR slot in the main deck was being used be the 4th Ichorid. I'm gonna test with 1 DR and 13 dredgers right now.

[Izor]

I think Memory's Journey and Coffin Purge are pretty close. Journey is potentially better but also a bit less reliable, being CC2.


I'm still trying to settle down on a list, and while 54 cards are fixed, the remaining slots refer to the decision between Tireless Tribe, Firestorm and Phantasmagorian. The remaining 2 slots are directly affected by that decision, because it basically comes down to whether I run 11 or 12 Dredgers and whether to run 14 or 15 Lands.

The Phantasmagorian option is very good against blue decks, but the recent prevalence of Delver-Canadian style Tempo decks has led me to question whether Phanta is still fast enough. Turn 1 Delver and Bolts to finish us off can actually be faster than we DDDing with Phantas, so its main selling point is weakened. Also I'm still not quite satisfied with the post board scenario with the Phanta list. I have to play more discard outs in the sideboard in order to reliably use my anti hate and restart my engine afterwards.

The Firestorm is really awkward. Potentially broken, but as soon as you play vs combo and whiff after your first Dredge you'll curse the card. 1 mana, discard 2 + Shock you & your opponent is awfully bad and costs you games. On the other hand, it wins you games against Tempo and Merfolks as an uncounterable discard out that removes their threats and against pesky Ooze.

The Tireless Tribes are the least spectacular option, but they're just so solid. And they make sure the deck runs smoothly both pre- and post board.


Decisions, decisions...


But I can definitely say that I wouldn't play Firestorm main in any metagame that is not flooded with Mavericks.

And I'd never play without Dread Return. Post board I've often been happy with only 1, but I really think two are necessary pre board. The difference between 3 Narcomoebas and 9 Zombies should be obvious to anyone. And you just do not always hit 3 Therapies right away. It's not about reanimating a Grave Troll. It's just about making loads of Zombies. Maybe I could live with 1, but never 0 main.

[Gui]

I think Memory's Journey and Coffin Purge are pretty close. Journey is potentially better but also a bit less reliable, being CC2.


I'm still trying to settle down on a list, and while 54 cards are fixed, the remaining slots refer to the decision between Tireless Tribe, Firestorm and Phantasmagorian. The remaining 2 slots are directly affected by that decision, because it basically comes down to whether I run 11 or 12 Dredgers and whether to run 14 or 15 Lands.

The Phantasmagorian option is very good against blue decks, but the recent prevalence of Delver-Canadian style Tempo decks has led me to question whether Phanta is still fast enough. Turn 1 Delver and Bolts to finish us off can actually be faster than we DDDing with Phantas, so its main selling point is weakened. Also I'm still not quite satisfied with the post board scenario with the Phanta list. I have to play more discard outs in the sideboard in order to reliably use my anti hate and restart my engine afterwards.

The Firestorm is really awkward. Potentially broken, but as soon as you play vs combo and whiff after your first Dredge you'll curse the card. 1 mana, discard 2 + Shock you & your opponent is awfully bad and costs you games. On the other hand, it wins you games against Tempo and Merfolks as an uncounterable discard out that removes their threats and against pesky Ooze.

The Tireless Tribes are the least spectacular option, but they're just so solid. And they make sure the deck runs smoothly both pre- and post board.


Decisions, decisions...


But I can definitely say that I wouldn't play Firestorm main in any metagame that is not flooded with Mavericks.

And I'd never play without Dread Return. Post board I've often been happy with only 1, but I really think two are necessary pre board. The difference between 3 Narcomoebas and 9 Zombies should be obvious to anyone. And you just do not always hit 3 Therapies right away. It's not about reanimating a Grave Troll. It's just about making loads of Zombies. Maybe I could live with 1, but never 0 main.

I second all your opinions.

The choice between 14 lands or 11 dredgers is really tough. I usually try to fit both 15 and 12, but if you can't, use 12 dredgers, they are more important than the lands.

[joeltheeditor]

So any advice as to how to play around relic or any tricks you think a novice Dredge player may miss?

I agree with siding out the breakthrough against GY hate. For the same reason would you ever look at siding out firestorm? I would think not because you can pick to old discard a card or two and against decks that its relevant it seems to be pretty relevant.

What about Surgical Extraction? Is my best bet really to ditch Macabre in hope of only giving my opponent a 2 for 1?