The problem with Dakmor Salvage is that it's a judgement call between Dredging 4+ and Dredging 2 plus recurring X Bloodghasts and people have a hard time determining when/when not to Dredge 4+ or Dredge 2 and Landfall into Bloodghasts, not that Dakmor Salvage in and of itself is a bad card. That said I don't think Dakmor Salvage is worth it unless you're playing the full set because you're relying on capitalizing on as many Bloodghast activations as possible to justify it.
Where I think Bloodghast may belong is actually as 1 or 2x creature in combination with Ashen Ghoul, because you can recur your pseudo Ichorid and your Bloodghast off a single land without being "all in" on either strategy and adversely affected by Surgical Extraction, i.e. you SB in 4 Nether Shadow, 1 Bloodghast and 1 Ashen Ghoul. Another though I had was that Bloodghast may just be "over kill" and 4 Nether Shadow is all we really need to diversify vs. Surgical Extraction. If that's true, I actually think dedicating those SB slots, or more MD slots, to Dread Return and Dread Return targets may be the correct approach because a clever opponent can just Surgical Extraction Ichorid and Bridge from Below and leave you beating down with an army of flying and hasted 1/1s if he's clever :(
The reason I like Iona, Shield of Emeria and don't like Sun Titan is that Iona can either be a 7/7 flying pseudo-shroud vs Snapcaster control or she can serve the purpose of Flame Kin Zealot by getting you to your next turn, the kill turn, by disabling their win condition. The possibility that TES may be playing Silent Departure (which I doubt, because it's a fringe SB card with an unfriendly mana cost compared to Death Mark) isn't really a big deal, because if the opponent spends the card and mana resources to Burning Wish for Silent Departure then have to pass the turn and lose anyway.
Game 1 I don't think it matters whether or not you use Iona, Shield of Emeria or Sun Titan, but game 2 is where it matters because Sun Titan is only as good as your grave position (Dredge's version of board position if you will) and if the deck has suffered collateral damage from Surgical Extraction his end result is less than impressive where Iona, Shield of Emeria or Jin Gitaxis, Core Augor just "do what they do." I'm not even certain whether or not it's correct to MD a Dread Return target if we can SB it either, because the deck is just so lop sided game 1 vs everything we may as well cram 3 Careful Study in or play 4 Careful Study and 3 Breakthrough instead (I know Careful Study isn't as good as Breakthrough, but game 2 Breakthrough is more of a liability than Careful Study and SBing out 7 cards in LED and Breakthrough is actually relevent compared to SBing out 8. I really do wonder about Breakthrough in this deck, because the discard hand mechanic isn't that important with Phantasmagorian and the card is such a liability facing Leyline of the Void or Tormod's Crypt).
This is why optimizing Dredge is such a bitch, because it's hard to draw the line between just how broken you need to be to win game 1 and then knowing exactly how much of that you need to SB out for a resilient game 2/3 vs. hate. Maybe it's better to start from the "optimal" game 2/3 Dredge deck and work your way backwards to figure out what your MD should look like.
Regardless, I don't think these Surgical Extraction based SBs are going to really hold up vs. us. They don't seem to play anything but Surgical Extraction fwiw, so that means we pretty much still get to play with our draw spells game 2 and there's bound to be a way to punish that. I'm pretty sure SBing out LED is still the right call for Nether Shadow to bolster the ranks vs. Surgical Extraction and the extra MD space should probably just be devoted towards a 3 Dread Return/2 Reanimate Target package so we can free up some SB space for graveyard hate.
I think all the discutions about which creature could supply the second ichorid`s slot has finished... its name is: GRAVECRALER !!!!
I don't know man... at least it can block.Originally Posted by Dravus Mallinard
This man is a truthspeaker! You deserve a beer - if you see me in Ghent, you may present yourself to me as The Speaker of Truths and I will buy you a beer of choice
About that... It really won't help our battle against Surgicals. If they remove our Bridges we don't have any Zombies.
Mmm, as exciting as it is to have another card printed for Dredge I think it's too situational to require a Zombie and a land in play vs hate unless you're playing with Bloodghast, and at that rate is Bloodghast and Zombie Crawler any better than Nether Shadow and Ashen Ghoul, the first of which doesn't require Landfall and the second of which doesn't require a Zombie for roughly the same board presence.
It does make me want to try Dredge in Modern tho', it may actually be playable with Zombie Crawler, Faithless Looting and Burning Inquiry even without Golgari Grave Troll and Dread Return as a purely bridge deck. Eh, probably not, but Zombies are awesome.
Guys:
Thoughts?
If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck, it's probably delicious.
Team ADHD-To resist is to piss in the wind. Anyone who does will end up smelling.
Yes. It sucks in Dredge.
For 3 Mana you get 4 Cards. Clearly cancelled out by Faithless Looting.
And Hokus:
Gravecrawler also can't block.
Oh. Makes it even more mediocre.
This man is a truthspeaker! You deserve a beer - if you see me in Ghent, you may present yourself to me as The Speaker of Truths and I will buy you a beer of choice
Went 5-2 at Jupiter Games' NELC to an 18th place finish out of 98 players (damn tiebreakers). Will have a report up as soon as possible. (Winds of Change for the win.)
Yeah... also played on a local tournament, and lost ONLY to Affinity cuz he overboarded hate. [3 Relic, 3 Trap, 2 Crypt]
Winds of Change is really strong against Combo. It's dredges are so surreal that I thought about maindeck inclusion. Problem is that I'll probaly never find space for it.
My list was the following hybrid-list [with Firestorms]:
//Dredgers
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
//Graveyard Goodies
4 Phantasmagorian
4 Bridge from Below
4 Ichorid
4 Nether Shadow
4 Narcomoeba
//other stuff
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Dread Return
2 Sphinx of Lost Truths
1 Angel of Despair
4 Firestorm
4 Street Wraith
//Lands
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
2 Tarnished Citadel
//Sideboard
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Winds of Change
4 Nature's Claim
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Ray of Revelation
I absolutely love the fact that this plays like Manaless and gives the opponent nearly no points of interaction while still having Firestorm and no autoscoop against Leyline. =D
The Grudge / Ray in the Sideboard were useless until now, I never really needed them [at lest not for gamebraking things], so maybe these could be exchanged?
I also thought of cutting 1 Dread Return and 2 Sphinx for 3 Ashen Ghouls to have even more versatility, but I think A) this is not really needed and B) we lack a lot of drawpower [no Bt, no G. Probe], so I think a draw-DR target is crucial. [Otherwise this could be a possible slot for 3 WoC, but this gives the opponent more chance to interact with us.]
Well... I just wanted to share my thoughts on the hybridlist, and I absolutely think that we SHOULD play Firestorms if we start maindecking lands again.
Kenjawn, Mutator of Cells
:16:- (See, now Erratic Explosion's a deck)
Legendary Creature - Horror
Haste, Hexproof, Double Strike, Trample
Kenjawn, Mutator of Cells is indestructible.
Permanents you control can't be sacrificed or copied.
Whenever Kenjawn, Mutator of Cells attacks, defending player gets liver cancer (This effect doesn't end at end of turn.)
13/13
I really like this hybrid concept, looks quite promising ^^
I was thinking if sphinx is really needed, I mean, draw power, ok, bt it uses the same resources you are aiming for... wouldn't it be better to have a Iona or a Elesh?
If you fail to explain the reason behind your choice, technically, it's the wrong choice.
Zerk Thread -- Really, fun deck! ^^
Hello all,
For a while now, I have wanted to build a dredge deck and I finally got around to building one, but it seems different than what I see on here. In local testing it has been performing well, but I do not want to take that to mean that it is the best list that It can be. I do feel that I made a mistake and that is too few dredgers, but the deck has a lot of 'dig' to it so I am unsure if that it is really a sever issue. Now onto the deck.
//Creatures
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Putrid Imp
4 Stinkweed Imp
2 Golgari Brownscale
1 Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
2 Nether Shadow
3 Golgari Thug
//Other spells
4 Breakthrough
3 Dread Return
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Careful Study
4 Bridge from Below
//Lands
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
Belcher
Delver
Dredge
When your heart won't beat, your eyes go black
There's a light in the tunnel and you can't turn back
Your friends can't save you, your family's gone
You're waiting on your judgment at the foot of the throne
Will you beg for some mercy? Will you cop some pleas?
Will you stand on your own or get down on your knees?
Will your angels release you from where demons dwell?
Will you make it into Heaven or go right back to Hell?
Only time will tell
The most important thing I want to say to this build is:
Beware of Jin. I also tested him (briefly) and I noticed that I deck myself ~70% of the time I reanimate Jin.
This man is a truthspeaker! You deserve a beer - if you see me in Ghent, you may present yourself to me as The Speaker of Truths and I will buy you a beer of choice
Essentially the danger of cool things?
If I drop him, from the build what could be a good add, I thought briefly about maybe Elesh Norn, or even Angel of Despair of something similar. In the current Meta, Elesh Norn seems like he could be pretty good.
Dredge
When your heart won't beat, your eyes go black
There's a light in the tunnel and you can't turn back
Your friends can't save you, your family's gone
You're waiting on your judgment at the foot of the throne
Will you beg for some mercy? Will you cop some pleas?
Will you stand on your own or get down on your knees?
Will your angels release you from where demons dwell?
Will you make it into Heaven or go right back to Hell?
Only time will tell
What will become of the LED builds once Faithless Looting is out? I just ordered my LEDs, so I'm already wondering what configuration I'll use.
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
2 Tarnished Citadel
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Faithless Looting
4 Breakthrough
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Dread Return
4 Putrid Imp
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
3 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
1 Sun Titan
I'm pretty unfamiliar with LED builds, but I hate the fact they used 8 rainbow lands with Imp, Therapy, and now Looting. So I upped that count to 10, but otherwise it's pretty stock. I'd like to play Careful Study, but is it necessary with Looting? Also, is it unwise to exclude FKZ in a build that can win turn one, or is it overkill?
Yeah, LED dredge will definitely need more rainbow lands to cast faithless looting. Eight was the typical number for LED dredge, but that was already dangerously low.
I think we need at least a couple careful studies. More card filtering will make the deck run more smooth. Not exactly sure what to cut from your list. Perhaps a Coliseum Land, thug, and a breakthrough. With all the card filtering the deck will have I believe it will function fine on 11 dredgers.
I think in the current meta FKZ is not really needed. FKZ was best against decks like stax and lands. Those decks don't see much play as of late. I think dredging more for more cabal therapies is your best move against combo. If you know what to name, multiple cabal therapies are just as good as FKZ.
I don't know what MD Firestorm accomplishes other than improve the Maverick + Scavenging Ooze match up, if you're going to play ~11 lands MD you should be getting more out of them than an extra Cabal Therapy activation like resolving Breakthrough/Winds of Change 4TW.
Flame Kin Zealot is bad, unless you have the board presence to win on the same turn you reanimate Flame Kin Zealot he's useless and if you're trying to win this turn before your opponent wins next turns Iona, Shield of Emeria accomplishes the same task while doubling as a ridiculous 7/7 Flying, Shrould. I really like Jin Gitaxis, Core Augor and I think I'll be messing around with 3 Dread Return, 2 Jin Gitaxis, Core Augor for awhile, because the thing is even tho' he's vulnerable to removal before you draw your new hand you've already stripped the opponent of his key spells with Cabal Therapy to resolve Jin Gitaxis, Core Augor in the first place, and even if you don't have enough Dredgers to take advantage of his Draw 7 actually drawing a new hand in Dredge is pretty fucking good too considering you've got a hand full of business in a zone the opponent can't disrupt as easily as the graveyard. Obviously once the opponent has to discard his hand on his next end step he's pretty screwed.
I like the idea of running Winds of Change and Nether Shadow MD until Faithless Looting, and by extension LED, becomes legal because those Draw 4+ cards are just bat shit ridiculous game 1
Edit: I also think Zombie Gravecrawler may be better than Ashen Ghoul when combined with Bloodghast if you're already playing Nether Shadow in the MD, the one saving grave of that card that I didn't notice until now is that you can play a Zombie Gravecrawler as soon as you play a land, which means you can recur 2 Zombie Gravecrawlers instead of 1 Ashen Ghoul when you're not limited to your upkepp.
There is also the downside to Gravecrawler, in that it is cast from your GY.
I came up with the following list, needs tweaking though. I've chosen FKZ and Sphinx as main DR targets for the simple reason that the list is alot more explosive with these. LED+FKZ+Sphix = inyourfaceexplosionofzombies.
The basic question when altering a LED list should be: will this change allow me to consistently kill my opponent in less turns on average? If the answer is 'yes', you should go for it. That's why I don't see the maindeck value in any other creatures than FKZ and Sphinx.
Draw/Discard:
4 Faithless Looting
4 Breakthrough
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Putrid Imp
Awesome stuff:
4 Ichorid
4 Bridge from Below
3 Dread Return
4 Narcomoeba
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
Dredgers:
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug
Return this:
1 Flamekin Zealot
1 Sphinx of Lost Truths
Lands:
3 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
I still have alot of questionmarks with it. It is an untested list that probably needs alot of tinkering. I like the idea of upping the number of rainbow lands to 10. I'm just wondering if Undiscovered Paradise is better than Tarnished Citadel.
I also would love to run Deep Analysis in a LED build, but it's hard to fit in.
I suppose I could go -1 Coliseum, -1 DR, +2 Rainbowland, but I really like that third DR.
If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck, it's probably delicious.
Team ADHD-To resist is to piss in the wind. Anyone who does will end up smelling.
My looting list contains 4 of everything, 0 Dread Return.
This man is a truthspeaker! You deserve a beer - if you see me in Ghent, you may present yourself to me as The Speaker of Truths and I will buy you a beer of choice
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