[Deck] GW/x Maverick

[arcannys]

Mom is the best creature in the deck.
Scryb is the second best creature in the deck (yes rlly... And if you say the opposite you havent played this deck correctly...), i've allways played 2 and ill never play less..

[KobeBryan]

Mom is the best creature in the deck.
Scryb is the second best creature in the deck (yes rlly... And if you say the opposite you havent played this deck correctly...), i've allways played 2 and ill never play less..

yea. if you don't use scryb ranger in the deck, you are doing something wrong.

[majikal]

Mom is the best creature in the deck.
Scryb is the second best creature in the deck (yes rlly... And if you say the opposite you havent played this deck correctly...), i've allways played 2 and ill never play less..

I disagree. Knight of the Reliquary is objectively the best creature in the deck.

However, Mom and Scryb Ranger are the best support creatures in most situations.

[Machahiko]

I've been thinking about my sideboard. Expecting to play against decks like Reanimator, RUG Delver, UW, Burn, Dredge and Maverick I presume? At the moment my sideboard is something like this:


3 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Path to Exile
1 Qasali Pridemage (1 MD.)
3 Choke
4 Tormod's Crypt
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Garruk Relentless


Canonists for combo, I don't like these so much. There's always a few combo decks which I need these for and I hate having these on my sideboard, feels like wasted space.

Path to Exile for the delver decks and possibly for reanimator, Zoo or Merfolk. You never know when these might come handy. Mainly for the delver decks.

Feeling a bit uncertain about the lone Qasali Pridemage. I have SoLaS MD to recur the one pridemage that I have, but it can get exiled. Feels like a good insurance.

Chokes don't need explaining, right? Tormods' and Wheel for graveyard based decks, I have a feeling that dredge and reanimator might be popular.

I feel like Garruk would be good for UW matchup, but.. I'm not sure. Generates a lot of tokens for sure which might be awesome, flipping Garruk will be hard though. On the other hand, I might just be biased because I want to try him out since I haven't had the chance.

I thought about two Life from the Loams, but I don't see that much use for them. Usually I have played E. Tutor sideboards so I've dropped COP: Red and Phyrexian Metamorph.


I understand that it's hard to give any advice when you don't know the maindeck, but I'll try to keep it as a secret until the tournament, will write a report Saturday or Sunday. :-)


EDIT: Also, if you post a decklist, use the proper tags, it makes watching decklists that much more fun!

[Koby]

I've been thinking about my sideboard. Expecting to play against decks like Reanimator, RUG Delver, UW, Burn, Dredge and Maverick I presume? At the moment my sideboard is something like this:


3 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Path to Exile
1 Qasali Pridemage (1 MD.)
3 Choke
4 Tormod's Crypt
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Garruk Relentless

You can easily cut one of the Chokes and 1 of the Crypts, which would free up 2 slots for a 2nd planeswalker and Oblivion Ring as a catch-all. Alternatively, you could also run Surgical Extraction, but I feel the card is wasted SB space. Maybe a 2nd or even 3rd Jitte to beat on creature decks.

[arcannys]

I disagree. Knight of the Reliquary is objectively the best creature in the deck.

However, Mom and Scryb Ranger are the best support creatures in most situations.

Ofcourse KotR is the best creature in a vacum, but scryb give this deck a whole new dimension. I top8d the las Catalan league of legacy (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...e-matches-More!) without GSZing for KotR a single time but searching for scryb almost every game. Scryb is also a skill tester for both you and your opponent and if you can take full advantatge of its power you will increase drasticly your winratio with this deck.

[majikal]

Ofcourse KotR is the best creature in a vacum, but scryb give this deck a whole new dimension. I top8d the las Catalan league of legacy (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...e-matches-More!) without GSZing for KotR a single time but searching for scryb almost every game. Scryb is also a skill tester for both you and your opponent and if you can take full advantatge of its power you will increase drasticly your winratio with this deck.

I can definitely agree with that. Most of my blowout victories were directly caused by Scryb Ranger allowing me to both attack and block while keeping Mother of Runes available to blank multiple pieces of removal.

[Koby]

I can definitely agree with that. Most of my blowout victories were directly caused by Scryb Ranger allowing me to both attack and block while keeping Mother of Runes available to blank multiple pieces of removal.

I agree with this too; many people forget several things about Scryb Ranger - Pro:blue, flying, untaps someone every single turn. Even after they read the card.

[Deep6er]

Congratulations, Joel. Your match report is the only reason why I've visited the Source in multiple months. HIGH-larious. I approve.

Aside: GearHART.

Double Aside: That match was probably the most fun I'd had that day, too. Don't get me wrong, beating the guy in Top 8 was the fucking best. But he wasn't very much fun to play against. I do remember being COMPLETELY boggled by the Extraction on Tundra. Looking at your reasoning, I suppose I can understand why, but man, if you'd saved that Extraction, we totall would have gone to a game three, and I would have had even more fun! Protip: make better plays. It's a good call. I'm trying to follow it myself. Hell, look at my goddamn top four match. I wouldn't have won, but I absolutely should have made my shit 5/5's because that would have at least made it look to me like I was winning. And I'm CLEARLY the important one in that matchup since I sure as shit wasn't winning.

[arcannys]

I agree with this too; many people forget several things about Scryb Ranger - Pro:blue, flying, untaps someone every single turn. Even after they read the card.

And not only that, it can keep you safe from wastelands, it can blank a jitte with a dryad arbour. Out of all its abilities the FLASH one is the most important. Thats why you always wanna see one scryb in your hand rather than having to zenith for it :)

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Mom is the best creature in the deck.
Scryb is the second best creature in the deck (yes rlly... And if you say the opposite you havent played this deck correctly...), i've allways played 2 and ill never play less..

I have to say that this mindset makes no sense to me.

If you want to play a bunch of guys that work well in a team and are hard to kill when you get your Voltron assembled, you can always just go play Slivers. Seriously. I'm not even kidding. They'll be bigger too, and they'll all fly and be untargetable and shit. You can even throw in some counters.

The reason that this approach falls apart is that people in Legacy play cards that are designed to disrupt your strategy- besides just the inevitability of having to mulligan to 5 or lower some games- and the individual pieces suck. Just like Mother of Runes and Scryb Ranger, which are fucking terrible cards if you don't have other things to support them.

Now, I mean, I'm all for synergy in deckbuilding, but let's not lose track of the core strengths of the deck in that effort. Even if Mother of Runes and (ugh) Scryb Ranger, or you know the card that does the same thing but costs half as much, should be played in the deck (which again, I don't agree with and others apparently have come to the same conclusion), they're not the strongest cards in the deck and not the reason for the deck's existence. Knight is the strongest creature in the deck, and Hierarch and Zenith providing versatile mana ramping are the other most important elements in making the deck function, along with just a bevy of good options and cards in this color combination, especially StP and good equipment.

The problem with Mom is that while she's great in the scenario where she's active and protecting a Knight and your opponent doesn't have a way to deal with this anarchy, there's lots of other scenarios where they counter the Knight and you have a 1/1, or wipe the board, or just flashback the StP with Snapcaster and you wish your Moms were now relevant cards. And the problem with Scryb Ranger is the same only much worse because primarily the only time it's really useful is when you have Mom (the synergy with Knight is of relatively low marginal value because games where you are active with Knight should pretty much be over unless you're running up against combo or something, in which case Scryb Ranger is dead. Also there's a card that does the same fucking thing and costs half as much am I on crazy pills or something.)

On an unrelated note, however, I'm thinking of going back to SFM, probably still with 2 Jitte main. While it's still far and away the most powerful maindeckable equipment and there's not much added utility to running SFM game 1, I really want a Manriki-Gusari and SoLS in the board for the mirror and Blade Control.

@Majikal: Congrats on the finish.


Since we're posting pictures, I feel like this is relevant:

[arcannys]

Just like Mother of Runes and Scryb Ranger, which are fucking terrible cards if you don't have other things to support them.

LOL.
I stopped reading right here. You dude have no clue about whats going on here. Period. End of story.
I already told you why are wrong on this, you didnt want to listen and change your mind, its fine, i dont care. But stop posting nonsense.
I'm still waiting on this btw:

http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/tip...&format=Legacy

Just the first page, tell me how many lists are not running moms?
If its more than 5% i wont say anything. If its less than 5% you should concider if you're doing something wrong.

And btw, if you're using your moms as blokers you might want to reconsider how you play the deck.

[bakofried]

Arcannys, can you please post an argument, and not just spam "I stopped reading after I saw 0 Moms lolol."

I mean, at least IBA is explaining his position, and the reasoning is sound. Mother of Runes is not the best if it's alone. Neither is Scryb Ranger. Maybe we should develop this line of thought a bit before dropping it?

[arcannys]

Well, im confidant enough that my previous 30M posts on the matter are a good enough argument.
Noone is stopping him from playing his own brews and if he thinks moms and scryb ranger are not good enough.. so be it, aparently nothing will change his mind. I don't want to fight over this anymore feel free to discuss the posibilities of removing moms and rangres, maybe you'll figure out why its wrong.

[zulander]

LOL.
I stopped reading right here. You dude have no clue about whats going on here. Period. End of story.
I already told you why are wrong on this, you didnt want to listen and change your mind, its fine, i dont care. But stop posting nonsense.
I'm still waiting on this btw:

I don't get it, how did this quote make you LOL and stop reading?

Just like Mother of Runes and Scryb Ranger, which are fucking terrible cards if you don't have other things to support them.

Do you not agree that Mother of Runes is terrible by herself? Like if your opponent has creatures on the board and the only creature you have access to is Mother of Runes then you would think she isn't so great in that scenario right?

This scenario actually matters often as control decks run sweepers, and making a deck with cards that are good by themselves is better than making a deck with cards reliant on other ones (especially creature based decks). Now with an active Knight both Mother of Runes and Scryb Ranger have great synergy, but each independently then they are not so good.

And really who cares about that 5% quote, of course 95% of maverick decks are running mom, otherwise they wouldn't be mom decks... that's like saying RUG decks run Delver.

[dsck]

Do you not agree that Mother of Runes is terrible by herself? Like if your opponent has creatures on the board and the only creature you have access to is Mother of Runes then you would think she isn't so great in that scenario right?

If your opponent has somehow outnumbered you with creatures and you only have mom, she can block the biggest creature they have until you get zenith/knight/equipment. She is NEVER bad.

This scenario actually matters often as control decks run sweepers, and making a deck with cards that are good by themselves is better than making a deck with cards reliant on other ones (especially creature based decks). Now with an active Knight both Mother of Runes and Scryb Ranger have great synergy, but each independently then they are not so good.

Any of those small creatures is a threat with equipment, maverick also can attack aggressively against manabase so you dont really have that easy time getting to sweeper mana.

And really who cares about that 5% quote, of course 95% of maverick decks are running mom, otherwise they wouldn't be mom decks... that's like saying RUG decks run Delver.

Yeah, and this is maverick thread discussing maverick deck which runs mother of runes.

[arcannys]

Thanks dsck finally some sane comment.
I agree if you ran a deck with 56 lands and 4 mother of runes, then yeah... mom wouldnt be that great. You definetly convinced me.

OK, enough sarcasm, mom is great in every situation, either if you have creature or not, It makes any thread you draw a HUGE one. Beside, do you realy think you're winning if the only thing you have on board is a KotR and 6 lands?
I'd rather have a mom in play and 0 other creatures than a KotR. I'll draw my KotR later..

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

If your opponent has somehow outnumbered you with creatures and you only have mom, she can block the biggest creature they have until you get zenith/knight/equipment. She is NEVER bad.

Drudge Skeletons are pretty fucking bad, dude.

Any of those small creatures is a threat with equipment, maverick also can attack aggressively against manabase so you dont really have that easy time getting to sweeper mana.

You may not be aware of this but lots of decks in Legacy run 4 Wasteland.

But if Blade Control ran nothing but Wrath that might be sufficient. The problem is that they run 6 StPs post-board, which they can find with Brainstorm and multiply with Snapcasters and God forbid Riptide Lab. It's when you try to build up a defensive board against this including Moms etc.. that Wrath becomes an issue. By that point they can have easily recovered from a Wasteland.

Yeah, and this is maverick thread discussing maverick deck which runs mother of runes.

Mother of Runes is not core to the deck's strategies. I mean Blade Control ran Mental Misstep when it could, but we didn't stop calling it Mental Misstep when it took it out.

Or alternately, Maverick used to run Aether Vial. And for a long time people were pushing it. But people eventually dropped it because it wasn't worth the slot. And lots of people argued about how good Aether Vial was. And they're not objectively wrong. Aether Vial is a potentially really powerful card. Hell, it's been banned in enough formats. I'm sure lots of people flipped out when they saw people cutting Aether Vials because the deck couldn't do as many cute tricks as it could before.

Argument to the status quo is not a logically sufficient argument, is what it comes down to. Yes, we know most lists run Mother of Runes. But there is no perfectly efficient market, much less in the Legacy metagame. And the one or two extra points you add or subtract from your win percentages by running the right or the wrong card add up.

At the very least the deck's fucking name should stop people from using, "Well that's how everyone's doing it" as an argument.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

LOL.
I stopped reading right here. You dude have no clue about whats going on here. Period. End of story.
I already told you why are wrong on this, you didnt want to listen and change your mind, its fine, i dont care. But stop posting nonsense.
I'm still waiting on this btw:

Yes, you attempted to summon up an argument, going at least somewhat beyond "LOL," and I rebutted it. This all happened a while ago. Try to keep up, I'm not going to endlessly repeat myself to humor laggards.

Well, im confidant enough that my previous 30M posts on the matter are a good enough argument.
Noone is stopping him from playing his own brews and if he thinks moms and scryb ranger are not good enough.. so be it, aparently nothing will change his mind. I don't want to fight over this anymore feel free to discuss the posibilities of removing moms and rangres, maybe you'll figure out why its wrong.

Then you should stop posting. Either contribute to the discussion or don't.

OK, enough sarcasm, mom is great in every situation, either if you have creature or not, It makes any thread you draw a HUGE one. Beside, do you realy think you're winning if the only thing you have on board is a KotR and 6 lands?
I'd rather have a mom in play and 0 other creatures than a KotR. I'll draw my KotR later..

I notice that you're not running Lightning Greaves in your list. Can you explain that one to me?

For that matter, others have advocated Sylvan Safekeeper as a one of since it's a Green Sun's Zenith target that fulfills a similar function to Mom. Yet you're not running that.

That's to leave aside the question of why you're not running Quirion Ranger. If the effect of Scryb Ranger is so good, surely at least one should be a Ranger so you can get that power online a turn faster.

But these are rhetorical questions because you are obviously just in love with specific cards and not interested in optimization.

[Sims]

Yeah, and this is maverick thread discussing maverick deck which runs mother of runes.

Where is there a law decreeing that this thread shall only contain discussion of GW and GWx Maverick decks containing Mother of Runes? I'll wait.

...

On a serious note: Welcome to innovation, people. Just because all of your lists run Mother doesn't mean it's necessarily the correct call. If no one is willing to push the envelope and say "In certain situations during testing I've found situation X to arise more often than I'd like, so lets try replacing card Y with a less situational card and see what happens.."

That's what Jack is doing, innovating and testing. He might be proven wrong in the end, or you guys in a few months might be playing decks sans Mother or Ranger... but if the person asking the question doesn't actually test and share their results, innovation can't occur and the entire point of this thread (and forum) becomes moot.