What is the value of 1 basic swamp?
Also brainstorm into spell snare/pierce might be an important thing to do in turn 2.
Currently playing: Elves
Good Point, That's a line of play I hadn't thought of.
You are probably right about Ruins over Swamp, Swamp doesn't add enough value. I know Gerry T loves ruins.
My next question is: what hands (besides the obvious ones) do you mulligan Game 1, against an unknown opponent? This was a problem I had when I played Tempo TA.
@flounce
I'm probably the dissenting opinion on basic lands, but I run 1 swamp, 1 forest, 1 island. The 1 swamp lets you play into Hymn turn2 without having to worry about Wasteland. If you have a metagame void of Wasteland and Choke/Back to Basics/Blood Moon, I would just max out on nonbasics.
@sdematt
Is Thrun good enough to cut Tarmogoyf for? I currently run 4 Goof, 4 Snap.
I was running 4 hymn, and I don't think I had issues resolving it all at. However, I did find that I wished it was a different card (spot removal or counter) at times. I'm not 100% sold on it as a 4of and I might cut one.Originally Posted by catmint
With that being said my manabase had 3 factory and 4 waste, and I was even considering upping the factory count to 4. They were just an absolute champ in games I played.
I cut Hymns quite a while ago and now im playing Thoughtseize as you see on my list above.
I do not miss them at all - targeted discard is just so much better than random - even though hitting the right things with Hymn is and will always be one of the strongest moves in Legacy - but you can aswell hit 2 unnessecary cards.
Greetings
In my build, games go longer so I'm fine with Thrun. I can Deed away the board and just regenerate him. No removal in the land hits him, and sitting there chumping for Jace is still pretty good, and if not, he's swinging for 4 :)
4 damage is enough when they have nothing in play.
-Matt
Did anyone ever play against Nic Fit before?
I think the matchup is pretty bad:
- Veteran Explorer/Cabal Therapy is sooo good versus us (neither basics or swords to plowshares)
- So is SD.top
- Discard is mediorce versus them (witness/cabal/SD.top/recurring nightmare)
- Spell Snare is pretty bad, because their only 2 drops are GSZ tutor targets..
- They have a lot versus jace (Thrun, deranged hermit, maelstrom pulse)
- Spot Removal is pretty bad - they get a lot of value and later drops have protection or are titans. (Witness, Veteran Explorer, Kitchen Finks, Thrun, Wall of Blossoms)
- Deed is not really good. Still killls a lot but does nothing versus a late game GSZ for witness to recast a sun titan).
- They have a much better late game including 6 drops, GSZ toolbox / witness, Recurring Nightmare, Gifts, Punishing Fire or some other ugly stuff...
In general it is a deck that wins with creatures, but the usual tools/gameplan we have to fight creature decks are not very effective since they are the better control deck in the sense of having a better late game and of course a very good acceleration with veteran explorer.
Therefore the probably most successful strategy is the tempo plan: dropping goyf and pray to bring it home with discard, counterspells & removal. I only played 1 game so far and did not really know what i was up against ... getting my ass kicked pretty hard.
Does anyone hava experience?
My SB plan at the moment:
- 3 Spell Snare
- 2 Pernicous Deed
- 1 Wasteland
- 1 Dismember
+ 1 Tarmogoyf
+ 1 Force of Will
+ 2 Spell Pierce
+ 1 Ghastly Demise
+ 2 Surgical Extraction
+ 1 Liliana of the Veil
Currently playing: Elves
Nic Fit isn't as much of a problem for Team America, particular with a build running Cliques and/or Delver to supplement Goyf and Stalker. The plan is to not let them get to the late game, and in this matchup Stifle is really good. Depending on the particular build of Nic Fit, they can have a pretty rough time dealing with an early Tarmogoyf as well.
I'd hate to say it, but a slower, more controlling BUG deck is going to have problems in this matchup because it's precisely the type of deck that Nic Fit is built to beat. Unless you start warping your strategy/card selection around significantly, I would just chalk this up to being a bad matchup and move on.
I would add that Liliana is pretty good in this matchup, and is an easy fit into BUG control, particularly if you have a Loam or two as well. Perhaps BUG could add a Terravore or two to end the games quickly once board dominance is established?
That sounds reasonable.. Pretty annyoing though...Matching versus other "blue based" control decks is fun, but versus Nic Fit is just ugly...
Hope it won't become too popular... we need more combo guys!!
Currently playing: Elves
Nic Fit... a match up where having basics has value... :)
Have you tried using Surgical Extraction in this match up? I generally find that Nic Fit ends up in topdeck mode rather often. I'd hit them with discard, and keep relevant bombs off the board with your counterspells. I'd also focus on protecting Jace in this match up more than normal.
Why is this deck called "Nic Fit"?
Polluted Delta - 4
Misty Rainforest - 3
Verdant Catacombs - 2
Underground Sea - 4
Tropical Island - 3
Bayou - 1
Wasteland - 4
Creeping Tar Pit - 2
Snapcaster Mage - 4
Tarmogoyf - 4
Force of Will - 4
Brainstorm - 4
Spell Snare - 2
Spell Pierce - 2
Ponder - 1
Go for the Throat - 1
Dismember - 1
Ghastly Demise - 1
Smother - 1
Hymn to Tourach - 4
Inquisition of Kozilek - 2
Thoughtseize - 2
Life from the Loam - 1
Pernicius Deed - 1
Jace, the Mind Sculptor - 2
Liliana of the Veil - 1
please share your thoughts...
ty
Okay guys - I have played alot of games with my list posted last page or somewhere... and I went to locals with it. Normally I never end up worse than 2nd - I mostly win due to my hightierdecks+skill. But this time I took BUG Control the first time and ended up last. You know, this kind of hurts. I threw this deck away as soon as I came home and built Canadian.
So what happened? At my locals I faced alot of undertiered budget-decks combined with bad luck. I lost to Poxx, Affinity, MonoB Reanimator and UW Basicland CounteThopter only winning a superior 2-0 vs Maverick ( the only tiered deck )
I mean yes I had bad luck - but this deck just has so much weaknesses in the lowtiersection. Poxx resolved a Crucible twice and GAME. I didnt find a Deed versus Affinity GAME. Okay I had bad luck vs Reanimator ..and again UW Thopter just seemed to be the stronger control-deck.
After all I am pretty disappointed - by this deck and by myself.
Maybe ( and yes its ME whos sayin that ) it is time to go back to one of the two decks this deck emerged from. Say TeamAmerica or BUG Landstill.
What do you think? Has anyone of you been on a tournament lately? I mean my list was great vs tiered decks but its brutal weakness vs budgetshit is just humiliating...
Greetings
I have pretty much always felt this way. By being a jack of all trades, you also end up being a master of none. Against the decks you listed, both TA and Deedstill probably would have faired better.
Control decks, by their nature, have to have cards that specifically address the metagame they are attacking. If you played against a bunch of "real" tier decks, you probably wouldn't have had as many problems. But I think BUG Control is still including a bunch of cards that aren't really the best for the metagame right now. And as far as implementing a midrange-y Jace control strategy goes, I think UW has better tools to work with. This is all just based on my personal experience/testing of course.
Hi all. We recently just concluded a 107 player Legacy event here in Manila and I played at the event using BUG Control(America or whatever you might call the deck since I believe it is a hybrid of both). For reference this is what I used:
3x Bayou
1x Island
2x Misty Rainforest
4x Polluted Delta
1x Swamp
1x Tropical Island
4x Underground Sea
3x Verdant Catacombs
4x Wasteland
4x Snapcaster Mage
4x Tarmogoyf
2x Vendilion Clique
4x Brainstorm
4x Force of Will
3x Ghastly Demise
1x Go For The Throat
4x Inquisition of Kozilek
2x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1x Liliana of The Veil
1x Pernicious Deed
2x Ponder
3x Spell Snare
2x Thoughtseize
First of all, I bombed during the tournament. We expected the usual stuff (RUG, Gobs, Mav, Blade.dec, Dredge, ANT, Zoo and Affinity) sadly I only played against 1 of them but others are mostly generic hate. Not much details but what I was up against were Dredge, UW Landstill, BW Tokens, Burn and Zoo.
Some explanation on the card choices:
2x Thoughtseize VS. 2x Hymn - first I had Hymns in there but later decided I like targeted rather random discard. Also, the fact that I can Snap back the 1cc discard on the 3rd turn. I don't think I missed Hymn in its place during the tournament.
10x Creatures - During testing I was running only 4 Goyf and Snaps but found it too slow alongside the 3 Jace and 1 Liliana. I just can't seem to close out games faster than I expected leading to draws or being beaten by a top decked bomb.
4x Removal + 1 Deed Main - This is in preparation for the Mav and other creature based match-ups. I think this would be the right mix for now seeing that Mav is rampant along with other 1-2cc creature horde decks.
23 Land Manabase - Was never a fan of Riptide tricks before. I ran 2 basics as opposed to 3 by JimmyC27 to support the 2black or 2u the deck. Also, it means I won't be as prone to wastelands as using all non basics.
Here's the thing. Seeing the results of my tournament experience leads me to ask if this is still the deck for me to play. I've always been a fan or BG+color decks and really believe this deck suits my play style. I want to reassess what happened and went wrong if I were to pick up the deck again. Should the deck's direction go this way (aggro Control with midgame Jace plan) or lean towards the BUG Still decks(lesser crits, more Deeds and Walkers) in the deck?
Hope to hear your thoughts. Thanks!
@sumbahdy
What was your sideboard? Also, why did you feel like you were losing matches? What was your record?
As I mentioned before - this deck has some good MUs in the tiered decks - but I dropped it in favor or BUG Landstill (at first - Ill take TA if Landstill fails^^) just in order to not fold to any budget-wannabe-strategie
Greetings
I don't think Landstill is a solid deckchoice at the moment. I've tested it a lot but you simply die burn. You can't drop a landstill against burn and your clock is hideously slow so they will just destroy you eventually. Same goes for U/R delver builds and even GW (liliana is poor against gw because they will sack a dryad arbor every time you try to kill something relevant, and the spot removal isn't very good with sylvan safekeeper and mother of ruins on the table either.)
I would rather play ancestral visions or counterbalance than standstill
First - it's mother of runes
Second -sorry, but landstill against gw decks is almost auto - win. Ok, it's not so easy, but it's supposed to be in our favor, because of pernicious deed. that card eat them alive. Even recuring wasteland, bunch of counterspells and reusable removal (liliana). Mother of runes is never be problem for UBGx landstill - we have plenty of edict effects - and speaking of that, of all control decks in format, UBG landstill have answer for thrun too. Resolved standstill against gw/maverick/company in right time wins you game. They can't race you with such a card advantage.
Against burn you can just pick up your cards and go home, as you said.
I usually flip the table on the way out aswell.
I do have 2 slots in the Sideboard currently and might put in 2 chills for this matchup.
@Philipp
I had a very similar experience to yours. I took a BUG intuition/loam list from hanni to a local tournament, got some bad pairings, had some bad luck but most importantly: played very poorly.
Reasons for that were mostly: No practice/experience/knowledge about the deck + the wrong mindset to play a full blown control deck like BUG deedstill/intution.
I knew if I want to be successful with a deck (any deck) I need to put a lot of work into it...you can also take Burn, RUG Tempo, Combo, UW, or whatever deck and end up 1:3 if you are not good with it. On the other hand a really good players using NO RUG; Goblins or Merfolk can be very successful in local tourney altough these decks are not very well positioned currently.
So, i decided for me not to switch decks every week like the metagaming "pros" we are listening to, but rather focus to learn 2-3 different decks really well. Same message to you sumbahdy... also your list does not look fine tuned...
Concerning the discussion Deedstill/BUG/TA: I think my list (or lists close to the high finishes from GP Amsterdam) are still the best positioned ones playing BUG, but also TA continues to have success.... Anyway it is much more important that you know exactly what you are doing with your deck.
btw.: thanks for the Input on nic fit Jimmy. I'll give it a shot. I might even have a very good testing partner...
Currently playing: Elves
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