Depends on if you run Gilded Drake.Originally Posted by rukcus
Haha - I like that Guilded Drake trick.
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Also, Blink would also be an option - initial testing was rather disappointing though
Spells that don't really do anything except pseudo-protect your SFM via bounce and aren't free seem pretty limited to me. It doesn't really speed you up much (you still can't cast her T2 if you want to protect her), and you'll have to recast her and wait another turn. It might be nice if you want to collect more equipment in your hand, but overall it just seems unnecessary. And good 'ole fashioned Unsummon seems more versatile anyway. The Gilded Drake/Saving Grasp trick is cute, but I think I'd rather draw into a StP.
Spell Pierce (and even Spellstutter) is much more versatile, IMO, if you find yourself with the slots available. I don't.
Perhaps you didn't see the other cards I mentioned.
I'd rather steal a goyf than plow it. Gives me a wincondition + a blocker opposed to giving my opponent 5 life.
Spellstutter+Saving Grasp almost works like Snapcaster on a Mental Misstep in vintage.
Ofcourse you don't run Saving Grasp ONLY for SFM. In fact, of the cards I mentioned, SFM is probably the least powerful card to cast Saving Grasp on. Cliqueing 3 turns in a row during your opponent's draw step pretty much ensures control over what your opponent is going to cast, while you push through 9 damage. That's pretty damn significant in my book. Recasting Snapcaster on Brainstorm several times should be pretty good too. Fogging a knight of the reliquary by blocking it and bouncing your creature might not be the sexiest play, but it could be a life saver.
I could see a deck where the density of creatures that interact with Saving Grasp is high enough to warrant its inclusion.
+1
I agree with this. Saving grasp on Snapcaster and clique seems great to me. But the question is, are other cards more powerful than this interaction, which is most likely the case. I still think it is always worth considering options before discarding them on the spot.Ofcourse you don't run Saving Grasp ONLY for SFM. In fact, of the cards I mentioned, SFM is probably the least powerful card to cast Saving Grasp on. Cliqueing 3 turns in a row during your opponent's draw step pretty much ensures control over what your opponent is going to cast, while you push through 9 damage. That's pretty damn significant in my book. Recasting Snapcaster on Brainstorm several times should be pretty good too. Fogging a knight of the reliquary by blocking it and bouncing your creature might not be the sexiest play, but it could be a life saver.
The point that someone would rather draw a Stp than Saving grasp is not a point at all, because you run 4 stp in both lists anyway.
I saw a list with Vial, Stoneforge, Snapcaster, Clique and Spellstutter Sprite with 2 Saving grasp. It looked interesting to me, because i love cool interactions like this.
Another reason i brought this up is that i think this deck needs more card advantage. I think this deck looses too many games because it lacks card advantage. Sure there are Snapcaster, Stoneforge and Jace, but other decks (like Rug) play up to 7 fewer lands than this deck, which leads to games where you draw land after land and they keep drawing threats.
How are you dealing with this?
Stoneblade boasts more CA/CQ than 90% of the decks out there...
What I'm saying is, if you're running 16 / 20 creatures, you're keeping a pretty shitty hand if you have no targets for the 1/2 saving grasps in your deck. The fact that saving grasp has flashback means that it becomes CA. Being able to control magic for 1U is really good. Your opponent isn't going to plow the gilded drake (he controls it), and if he's spending it to get rid of his own creature, well, that's fine too. The only thing he could do is plow your target in response to saving grasp, to which you can respond by flashing it back (is this correct?), essentially countering the removal spell.
You could play riptide laboratory and forget about gilded drake, but its much more mana intensive. You can only really do that once you've made it to the late game. It may or may not be good enough but I doubt anyone here has any test results to back up their claims.
Stoneblade doesn't usually run 16-20 creatures. I'm skeptical that we have the room for 16, much less 20. (And you can't fully count the Gilded Drake, because they're only as good as your opponent's creatures.)
I don't doubt that Gilded Drake and Saving Grasp is a neat trick. I just don't think it's something you can rely on and thus something worth the slots. As someone else here argued, what do you drop to make room for it? The hard part about Magic is not finding good cards, it's figuring out which good cards to keep in your deck.
You're right though that there aren't test results to draw a definitive conclusion. I encourage those who think they're good additions to try them out and gather the evidence.
You named it: Snapcaster, Stoneforge, Jace, with some help from Brainstorm of course.
Snapcaster multiplies your removal (I won't say it multiplies it by 4, because everyone starts saying that they have an additional 4 of of every instant in their deck, but that's only close to true if you're continually bouncing Snapcater).
Stoneforge tutors for your equipment, which, whether it's a Batterskull or a Sword/Jitte, once out, is usually enough to equalize whatever a tempo-strategy has put on the field. Obviously it's easier said than done when your SFM is bolted and you don't have a body for your Sword/Jitte even if you hardcast it. Nobody said playing control was easy. You have to decide what is best to tutor for at a given time, and whether you can get it out and make it stick. Figure that out, and you have the advantage.
Jace doubles your draw, or slows your opponents' roll, or ruins your opponent's card quality; all excellent things. If you can untap with Jace, then you are at a strong advantage to win.
If you need more CA, then Ancestral Vision is an option. I've only seen it in a Spellstutter build that has no Snapcasters, though. If it came down to a choice between Vision and Snapcaster, I'd take the Snapcaster (and I have). Tiago is not only card advantage, but card quality advantage, because you know exactly what you're going to flashback, and he leaves you with a body on the field too. Vision might draw you another Swords, but Tiago knows whether you have a swords (or whatever) already in your yard.
FWIW, I have yet to have serious problems with RUG. I'm not saying they're a walk in the park, but the only removal they run main is Bolt (and Chain Lightning, maybe?). Untap with a Batterskull, and they're usually toast. Get a SoFF (which, btw, also improves your relative card advantage, not to mention tempo) on him and they scoop. Post-board, they're bringing in artifact hate, but you're also bringing in spot removal and sweepers. Engineered Explosives is also excellent against these guys, especially when they over-commit. EE + Academy Ruins is a soft-lock.
I think Zoo is a more challenging matchup because they have StP, Mother of Runes, even better tempo, and oftentimes, Punishing Grove.
hello all, been reading through the thread pretty heavily recently and have tried to brew up something I plan to play in a small tournament tomorrow... Suggestion would be appreciated.
1 Sorin
1 Elspeth
3 Jace
1 SoFaF
1 BS
4 SCM
4 SFM
2 Clique
3 Vindicate
4 StP
4 Brainstorm
4 Force
3 Spell Snare
2 Counterspell
1 Karakas
1 Riptide Laboratory
2 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland
4 Flooded Strand
1 Polluted Delta
2 Marsh Flats
2 Scrubland
3 Tundra
2 Sea
2 Island
sb
1 Jitte
2 Wrath
2 EE
3 Surgical
3 P2E
3 Spell Pierce
1 Spell Snare
I tested Confidant and found that I had a ton 2 drops and less room for Cliques and the extra Planeswalker... Also this deck has 6 3 drops,'Skull, FoWs and 5 Planeswalkers... I ended up blowing myself up a lot. The argument can be made to play Confidant, play Ponders and less high casting cost spells... I just don't know if that route is better or not yet. I obviously wanted to play Thoughtseize or IoK but, again, I don't have any room, really... Normally they would have the slots the Vindicates are occupying.
I think my biggest ifs are trying x3 SS MD instead of 4 which I've always played. The other big question is testing out Sorin... I think he would be really good in Jace battles, he can defend himself long enough to sweep some games... I don't think its necessarily win more either, since in Blade mirrors Planeswalker wars are pretty real. Do you think I should go down to x2 Vindicate MD for the 4th SS? I really don't want to... but I don't know of only playing x3 SS is a good idea or not... maybe try x1 Counterspell? I don't like one ofs that can't be tutored for or aren't Planeswalkers...
Also... am I being too greedy in playing only 23 lands? I have been goldfishing it a bit and I can usually hit 4 lands on turn 4... but of course i'm just goldfishing and not factoring in Stifle/Wasteland etc... Has anyone tried out 23 lands instead of the usual 24 (sometimes 25). I was also thinking that 1 Crucible MD or in the side would be really nice, because it makes me less vulnerable to Wasteland, gives me value with Fetches and can obviously allow me to mise out certain MUs by constantly Wasting their lands. Right now I'm playing 6 colorless lands, but I really, really wanted to play Academy Ruins to fight through Ancient Grudges and do bad things with EE, do I have to play 25-26 lands for 7-8 colorless be permissible? Obviously I'm playing Jace, CS and Clique (all UU) so maybe it would be awkward too often.
I just added some notes to your list:
1 Sorin
1 Elspeth
3 Jace
1 SoFaF - this choice is very meta dependant - make sure it's the right sword - I suggest Jitte for an open meta
1 BS
4 SCM
4 SFM
2 Clique
3 Vindicate - I like Vindicate, but maybe one of them would be better off as Path to Exile / Ghastly Demise, since your curve is very high already and you'll be using it as creature removal most of the time anyway
4 StP
4 Brainstorm
4 Force
3 Spell Snare - three is the correct number
2 Counterspell
1 Karakas
1 Riptide Laboratory
2 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland
4 Flooded Strand
1 Polluted Delta
2 Marsh Flats
2 Scrubland
3 Tundra
2 Sea
2 Island
----------------> mana base: overall 9 non-blue sources is 3 too many imo. I'd suggest drop factory and 1 Scrubland and replace them with 1 fetchland, Underground Sea and 1 basic Plains - with these changes you can get away with 23 land easily.
1 Jitte - that's a catch all sword - should be specific hate instead, like SoFaI (against Merfolk and Goblins)
2 Wrath
2 EE --------- this is actually neat MD material in three color versions
3 Surgical - should be 4 (+1)
3 P2E - With to Wrath and an additional creature removal spell in the MD 3 is overkill
3 Spell Pierce
1 Spell Snare - not a SB card imo. (-1)
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I haven't done the testing, but it seems wrong to be splashing black but not including Dark Confidant, even if the curve is a bit high (but not any higher than BUG control).
Stoneforge Mystic and Snapcaster Mage might see more play, but Dark Confidant is still the best 2-cc creature in Legacy; it just rarely sees play anymore since black is such a bad color right now (except for combo, and even then, combo is a bit weak right now).
Considering Maverick's current strength I rather like black at the moment, especially when it comes to the sideboard. Perish, Virtue's Ruin and Massacre are quite good these days. As I said, I blame it on Maverick. It even brings me to reconsider playing RUG at the moment, and I've been swinging with Nimble Mongeese since 3 or 4 years.
Conan, what is best in life? - To crush your enemies, see them driven before you... and to hear the lamentation of their women!
There you go Snappingbowls - here's your SB:
4 Spell Pierce
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Extirpate (why the hell not?)
2 Perish
1 Wrath of God
1 Path to Exile (1 in the MD)
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 EE
1 Disenchant - Choke and friends (has actually become a core card in our SBs - with Vindicate 1 is the correct number imo)
@ klaus, thank you for your response, that was very helpful advice. This is a local meta with maybe 2-3 other guys who "play legacy" (i.e. have a collection and make actual legacy decks) then I expect a bunch of scrubby homebrews to round out the tournament. I will reconsider the 2nd equipment slot, I think you may be correct in suggesting Jitte over SoFaF MD. SoFaF is better in the mirror I think and is strong against RUG (you can block goyfs and always have your lands up on their turn)... Again, I don't think I'll be playing a ton of RUG, mirror and Zenith/Explorer though.
I knew the manabase was light on blue, but it seems weird going down to 1 Factory... considering the inherent scrubiness of over half of the expected turn out today, maybe x2 Wasteland is a better meta call? Like I said, maybe 14-16 people playing, with 4-5 including myself, who own/have access to duals... It sounds obvious when I type it out... so maybe -1 Scrub (good advice, 3rd sea seems better) -1 Waste?
Thanks as well for the SB advice, I'm pretty guilty of net-decking the SB and it's wiser to tone down the removal and open up some slots for Disenchant, or I might play Crucible in that spot, and Perishes/Nature's Ruin. Already second guessing that... I think I'll make room for D-Chant and Crucible, Disenchant is never a blank and of course a sweet SCM target. My goal for today is SCM some Vindicates haha...
@ lordofthepit, Nothing seems more wrong, right? I totally agree about how weird it was building this deck sitting at my desk not finding room for Confidants. For everyone here who has played Blade a good bit knows how tight all the lists are (maybe 2-3 flex slots tops) so I really had trouble fitting in Confidants, I was thinking if I did, I would have to go down to one random Clique, like, 1-2 Vindicate and maybe cut Sorin... which I really don't wanna do. I'm gonna steal some Planeswalkers today ;)
What cuts would you make for 2-3 Dark Confidants MD? Also, it's not only finding slots for Bob, but as I mentioned earlier, I think you also need to play some amount of Ponder/SDT to keep from blowing yourself up too much... It just seems like it really cuts into your control core too much when you need almost 5-6 extra slots to support Bob. Plus, as has been discussed earlier, Blade already has massive CA/CQ. Ugh, if you haven't guessed I truly am conflicted as Bob is one of my favourite cards, and obviously really good. For all the above reasons though, he's been hard to play so far.
This is my build... That runs bob as the main CA engine.
4 Dark Confidant
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Inquistion of Kozilek
4 Force of Will
4 Ponder
2 Jace, the Mindsculptor
2 Unearth
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Ghastly Demise
1 Batterskull
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
2 Marsh Flats
3 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
2 Scrubland
2 Mishra's Factory
1 Moorland Haunt
1 Island
1 Plains
1 Swamp
I only run 22 lands (no factories, a single Kor Haven is my only colourless land, and I may ditch it), and I haven't had too much mana problems. I'll admit to pretty much scooping against a wasteland/crucible lock though.
It really depends on your metagame.
If you're facing Tribal decks all day, then you have to max out your Snapcasters and Stoneforges, obviously. Dark Confidant is solid against them, but it can become a liability if they go off too fast. Vindicate is a bit slow.
If you're facing decks like Zoo which have a lot of removal, I actually don't like Dark Confidant. Not so much because of the lifeloss, but rather, because you'll never be able to stick your creatures. SFM and SCM both provide a benefit just by resolving, even if they die right away, whereas Dark Confidant needs to stay on the board to accrue benefits.
I'd argue that Vindicate is the most likely cut. It's too slow against the aggressive strategies, but against control and combo (i.e. decks without much removal), you'd probably pull further ahead by just resolving a Dark Confidant. It's also so good against something like BUG control which has few ways to remove a black creature. I'd probably pull Sorin to lower the curve and to make room for an extra Bob.
If anyone objects to my opinion, you should probably take their word for it. I don't play a whole lot of Stoneblade personally. I do have the deck built and occasionally use it for testing purposes, and I often run into it at my local game store, but I definitely don't have as much experience from the other side of the table.
I run only 21 lands, but also run 4 ponder, the idea is that 4 ponders and 4 brainstorms allows me to run fewer lands, does this by helping me to get to my 4th land drop, while helping to NOT reach the 7th land drop.
Is a diferent aproach of the blade control, but people still might missunderstand it.
As you can see, I don't run spell snares or spell pierces... that's cuz my plan is each turn, play a land (until 4-5), a threat (and/or removal) and a top manipulation to continue with that plan.
Bob supports that very well. Drawing me 2 cards a turn... ponders only made it even more powerful.
I know this is theorical as I will never cast a ponder/brainstorm each of my turns, BUT having 8 is the way to go.... having fewer lands is another way of gainning CA.
Having 8 top manip helps me to not draw a late-game inquistion, or a early game jace...
helps me to look for removals if needed and look for that precious unearh (unearth>SCM>unearth>bob/sfm+jitte) or jace to finish the game.
It very diferent but if you can realy understand the concept I would love to discuss it and improve it.
You can see it as a "tempo-control" build.
Is something like, "I want a blade deck with a such low curve that can be fast enought to face tempo strategies and survive with fewer lands on the board while still having a strong late-game plan (jace, batterskull, SCM)
+ Bob, Ponder, Fewer Lands
- Cards that want me to hold (Clique, Snare, Pierce)
(Sorry for my english... i'm still learning ^^ )
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