[Deck] Burn

[Curby]

Burn's reasonably easy to hate out, but there still isn't enough of it piloted by good players that it's worth worrying about for most people. People are probably more worried about Reanimator and Dredge, who consistently make it to the top tables and have a common weakness, and their concerns are IMO well justified.

Saying that Burn is the next Goblins may be going a little too far. Goblins was like Zoo: an aggro deck that dominated metas for quite a while. As far as I know Burn's had good success, but not nearly on the level of these other decks. Have we ever seen two Burn decks in the top 8 of a large event? I'd be surprised if Goblins or Zoo didn't achieve that multiple times during their peaks. (I don't keep too good of an eye on event results, so I may have missed something.)

Anyway, options are limited. For hating the hate, Anarchy, Chaos Warp, Nevinyrral's Disk, Ratchet Bomb, or a splash into green or white. Alternately, and depending on the hate seen, simply using more creatures and nontargeted damage like PoP, Flame Rift, and Volcanic Fallout can work. Uncolored damage sources like Barbarian Ring help.

For Lifelink, Sulfuric Vortex and Smash to Smithereens (or Shattering Spree if you're worried about countermagic) can usually remove the sources.

[RogueBuild]

I may be jumping the gun on Burn being the next Goblins but the potential is still there. And the biggest reason for it is not dominance, but the simple fact that like Goblins, a lot of people can play it that can't afford to play any of the other top tier decks. That was one of the biggest draws to Goblins too. And Burn might be an even cheaper deck to build. A lot of people have to make a choice between playing something like Bant, Nic Fit, Mav, or whatever and only have 1/2 the cards needed and the rest is filler, or they can play Burn and have everything.

But what do I know. Maybe I'm the only person that ever sees a turn 1 CotV at 1, Trinispheres or Laylines of San.

[Curby]

You always have to metagame correctly. If everyone's playing Stax, MUD, Dragon/Faerie Stompy, etc., then you've got an uphill battle. On a national level, I'm not sure that it's as big of a deal. There was a MUD deck that top-8'd SCG Dallas, but again it's not like Stoneblade in terms of popularity. /shrug

[ThePrevailer]

It seems we are all in agreement that Burn is easy to hate out. This is [partially] what we have sideboards for. I think it would be useful to make a list of all the things people use to hate out burn, and figure out good ways to build the SB or adjust your maindeck accordingly.

These are the cards I've personally ran against Burn or had played against me, and my the choices I see to deal with these things

Everything - Nevinyrral's Disk, [almost] Chaos Warp, technically Ratchet Bomb, but I wouldn't rely on this for anything above 2cc, and even then it's bad against anything with artifact removal.

Leyline of Sanctity - use more creatures, Anarchy
Chill - Pyroblast/REB, Ratchet Bomb
COP: Red - Bomb, Pithing Needle, Anarchy
Warmth - Bomb, Anarchy
Chalice@1 - Smash/Spree
Scavenging Ooze - Needle, burn
Jitte - Smash/Spree, Needle, Sulfuric Vortex
Batterskull - Smash/Spree, burn, Vortex
CounterTop - REB, Bomb, Vexing Shusher
Iona, Shield of Emeria - Phyrexian Metamorph, everything else is too slow.


I personally don't like SB answers that cost 4, but I realize that they can be useful. Of the 4 drops, I think Disk has the most utility by far, but it's easy to play around, and your opponent gets a chance to destroy it before you can use it.

This is my current side board:
3 Pithing Needle
3 Pyroblast
3 Phyrexian Metamorph
3 Chaos Warp
3 grave hate, currently Faerie Macabre

[Curby]

Good summary. I'll just mention again that a small splash could work wonders. White gives you Demystify (vs Disenchant that gets nabbed by Spell Snare) and Swords to Plowshares or Path to Exile. StP/Demystify/Spree are mana-efficient answers that take care of all hate (except if the opp has two Leylines on the field, but a single Chaos Warp won't help there either).

This makes you play fetches and a dual or two which decreases deck consistency, in exchange for what I'd argue is a more powerful sideboard.

P.S. If you're afraid of Chalice, do not run Smash, since Spree is your best out if they get Chalices at 1 and 2 out.

[NeoTech]

It seems we are all in agreement that Burn is easy to hate out. This is [partially] what we have sideboards for. I think it would be useful to make a list of all the things people use to hate out burn, and figure out good ways to build the SB or adjust your maindeck accordingly.

These are the cards I've personally ran against Burn or had played against me, and my the choices I see to deal with these things

Everything - Nevinyrral's Disk, [almost] Chaos Warp, technically Ratchet Bomb, but I wouldn't rely on this for anything above 2cc, and even then it's bad against anything with artifact removal.

Leyline of Sanctity - use more creatures, Anarchy
Chill - Pyroblast/REB, Ratchet Bomb
COP: Red - Bomb, Pithing Needle, Anarchy
Warmth - Bomb, Anarchy
Chalice@1 - Smash/Spree
Scavenging Ooze - Needle, burn
Jitte - Smash/Spree, Needle, Sulfuric Vortex
Batterskull - Smash/Spree, burn, Vortex
CounterTop - REB, Bomb, Vexing Shusher
Iona, Shield of Emeria - Phyrexian Metamorph, everything else is too slow.


I personally don't like SB answers that cost 4, but I realize that they can be useful. Of the 4 drops, I think Disk has the most utility by far, but it's easy to play around, and your opponent gets a chance to destroy it before you can use it.

This is my current side board:
3 Pithing Needle
3 Pyroblast
3 Phyrexian Metamorph
3 Chaos Warp
3 grave hate, currently Faerie Macabre

So far my sideboard has been very successful. I went 4-2 for 9th place in last week's Mox Emerald tournament at Empire Central, beating Geddon-Stax 2-0 in round 1 from a turn 1 Chalice @ 1 plus resolved Trinishphere and Leyline of Sanctity. Not all that hard when you know what to do.

I have changed the board since then, but this is my "from now on" board.

Sideboard:
3x Sulfuric Vortex - vs. Kitchen Finks, Warmth, Batterskull, Scavenging Ooze
3x Pyrostatic Pillar - vs. Combo, GW Aggro
4x Faerie Macabre - vs. Reanimator, Dredge
2x Red Elemental Blast - vs. Blue anything / Chill
3x Smash to Smithereens - vs. Chalice, Batterskull, Jitte, Trinisphere, anything

[goblinlacky]

Hello source community
I'm Goblinlacky its been a long long time since I've played any type of competitive format but since a new store popped up near me I decided to get back on the bike again. I did some searching an stumbled onto mono red. Which I used to play pretty much play exclusively back in the day which was mono red goblins. I knew that the play might not differ that much from it plus it was pretty inexpensive for me to get into. Ok with that out of the way how would you guys perceive us fighting the hate aka warmth/sop red/ect. If their even is hate against us hopefully their to busy with other decks Also one more thing I would also like to know/hear your thoughts on layline of the void in side instead of faerie macabre. Are the faeries that much better I do understand that layline is pretty much a dead draw since we cant cast it an even worse if we casted it an happened to draw one or more which could hurt us. But we would only need one in play an it can hose either Reanimator/Dredge on turn one which seems very solid in its own right.
with out further ado heres my list i got it from here in case you were wondering
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=44236

Creatures
4 Goblin Guide
3 Grim Lavamancer
3 Hellspark Elemental
3 Keldon Marauders

Spells
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt
4 Fireblast
4 Price of Progress
4 Flame Rift

Lands
2 Barbarian Ring
17 Mountain

Sideboard
4 Layline of the Void
3 Pyrostatic Piller
2 Pyroblast
3 Smash to Smithereens
2 Volcanic Fallout

Also might get rid of the Grim lavamancers if they are underwhelming
-3 Grim Lavamancers
+1 hellspark
+1 Keldon Marauders
+1 Mountain
My meta is basically unknown to me which is why i play volcanic fallout in the side

edit: some reason i just messed everything up an didn't add the two mountains heck i even messed up my own name lol

[jares]

Regarding the evolution of our sideboard, I don't feel that much would need to changed in how we address the meta, even if the field would now be more aware of Burn's presence. A tweak here and there would certainly be helpful, but I don't see the meta making drastic changes to address the emergence of Burn, which likely means that we won't need to apply any drastic changes too.

Honestly, I still expect that, even amidst the success of Burn in recent tournaments, Burn will still be underestimated and under-appreciated - there will only be a few that will be wise enough to give this archetype the respect that it deserves. Also, the reality is that many inexperienced players could be expected to run this deck and crash-and-burn (pun intended), and this will also contribute to this archetype being perennially brushed-off as a "noob's deck" (which can be used to our advantage). This could probably change if Burn is able to consistently be Tier 1 for a significant period, and I guess that we'll just have to wait and see if that does happen.

Kind Regards,
jares

[jares]

Creatures
4 Goblin Guide
3 Grim Lavamancer
3 Hellspark Elemental
3 Keldon Marauders

Spells
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt
4 Fireblast
4 Price of Progress
4 Flame Rift

Lands
2 Barbarian Ring
15 Mountain

Sideboard
4 Layline of the Void
3 Pyrostatic Piller
2 Pyroblast
3 Smash to Smithereens
2 Volcanic Fallout

The first thing I noticed is that you're running only 17 lands - you'll have a really difficult time winning with very few resources at your disposal. As much as we want to avoid getting flooded with lands, we do want to get at least 2 Mountains in play every game. Lists have been successful with running just 19 lands, though I personally prefer using 20 (possibly using [3x] Barbarian Ring). I actually miss using fetch lands, as I feel that the deck-thinning really helped. Unfortunately, it seems that the meta isn't that forgiving to fetches anymore.

Also one more thing I would also like to know/hear your thoughts on layline of the void in side instead of faerie macabre. Are the faeries that much better I do understand that layline is pretty much a dead draw since we cant cast it an even worse if we casted it an happened to draw one or more which could hurt us. But we would only need one in play an it can hose either Reanimator/Dredge on turn one which seems very solid in its own right.

I used to think that Leyline of the Void was also the better choice over Faerie Macabre, given that you'll want to have the hate in your opening hand anyway. Eventually, I figured that the decks that we want to board these cards into (Reanimator and Dredge) can be expected to be able to address Leyline of the Void in the form of Echoing Truth and Chain of Vapor, respectively. In contrast, Faerie Macabre is a card that neither of these decks will be able to respond to effectively, and that might be the best factor that can help you choose between the two.

I hope that helps.

Cheers,
jares

[Curby]

Yeah, I think that was a typo. The original deck from SCG had 17 Mountains, and the deck as posted here had 58 cards.

[Pinoy Goblin]

Anyone here tried seismic assault? I played austin yost's burn build in our local tourneys and all I can say that sometimes without the early beaters and all spell cards in your opening hand the tendency is you ran out of gas and worst of it, top decking mountains multiple times, without the fetches topdecking a mountain is more probable so my thoughts are why not run seismic assault ass a two off main deck so that mid to end game we have a chance to recoup when top decking a mountain, just thinking out of the box

kindly yours,
pinoy goblin

[rnightingale]

Why the heck should we play Seismic Assault? It's a 3cmc that needs fuel just to do 2 damage?

Sulfuric Vortex is a better 3cmc card for burn. Take note that playing burn is not just a "point and shoot" deck, it requires skill. Fetching for 1 land in a 17 to 19 Land deck doesn't change even 1% of your top deck probability.

[Pinoy Goblin]

Why the heck should we play Seismic Assault? It's a 3cmc that needs fuel just to do 2 damage?

Sulfuric Vortex is a better 3cmc card for burn. Take note that playing burn is not just a "point and shoot" deck, it requires skill. Fetching for 1 land in a 17 to 19 Land deck doesn't change even 1% of your top deck probability.

Well, I have tested sulfuric vortex and it has its pros and cons i might agree with you that it is better than seismic assault but its a case to case basis. Vortex is good only againts control decks while in a agressive aggro deck, you burn yourself to death raising your own clock,Im thinking out of the box as I have stated earlier, But I would disagree with you with the fetches, running 10-12 fetches may change your top deck probability on drawing more lands (deck thinning). As you have stated fetching 1 land doesn't change even 1% pls give me your data(even if it is lower than 1% as u have said chances of probability are still on a positive note). . . let as say only for example less than 1% for each land fetched alas it would add up as you fetched more

[from Cairo]

rnightingale's right; Sulfuric Vortex is definitely better than Seismic Assault in this deck.

[lordofthepit]

Anyone here tried seismic assault? I played austin yost's burn build in our local tourneys and all I can say that sometimes without the early beaters and all spell cards in your opening hand the tendency is you ran out of gas and worst of it, top decking mountains multiple times, without the fetches topdecking a mountain is more probable so my thoughts are why not run seismic assault ass a two off main deck so that mid to end game we have a chance to recoup when top decking a mountain, just thinking out of the box

kindly yours,
pinoy goblin

Seismic Assault is really terrible in this deck. If you're able to drop 3 mana, how many more lands can you possibly rip off the top in the rest of the game? You're already down 1 card and 3 mana, so you'll need at least 4 damage to compensate.

I'd rather run Shock, Shard Volley, Lava Dart, Ball Lightning, Sonic Burst, Kindle, etc. A million other unplayable cards before I'd consider Seismic Assault. Unless you have some tech to get lands in your deck cheaply!

[CabalTherapy]

The Assault does nothing in this deck.

Some time ago I've played Scirocco against all kinds of (Solidarity, Spiral Tide...) blue strom decks. I think this card is not really needed in the meta right now but good enough to keep it in mind.

And I also think that the Faerie is better than the Leyline due to the "Fuck-I-just-draw-a-leyline-possibility" and also it is a good reactive-card. It is just my preference.

[rnightingale]

Well, I have tested sulfuric vortex and it has its pros and cons i might agree with you that it is better than seismic assault but its a case to case basis. Vortex is good only againts control decks while in a agressive aggro deck, you burn yourself to death raising your own clock,Im thinking out of the box as I have stated earlier, But I would disagree with you with the fetches, running 10-12 fetches may change your top deck probability on drawing more lands (deck thinning). As you have stated fetching 1 land doesn't change even 1% pls give me your data(even if it is lower than 1% as u have said chances of probability are still on a positive note). . . let as say only for example less than 1% for each land fetched alas it would add up as you fetched more

Why should i give you a data ? Why don't you ask Austin Yost, the creator of that wonderful deck you just copied? Anyway, you said yourself, losing life will raise your own clock hence; using fetchlands is the same and on top of that, RUG can stifle your ass, making you lose tempo.

Using Seismic Assault on Burn is pointless arguement. Your primary objective is to put your opponent in critical condition on turn 3, not casting some terrible 3cmc that makes you lose lands. Constant land drop is also important in order to pump your FOD to it's final evolution.

[Pinoy Goblin]

Why should i give you a data ? Why don't you ask Austin Yost, the creator of that wonderful deck you just copied? Anyway, you said yourself, losing life will raise your own clock hence; using fetchlands is the same and on top of that, RUG can stifle your ass, making you lose tempo.

Using Seismic Assault on Burn is pointless arguement. Your primary objective is to put your opponent in critical condition on turn 3, not casting some terrible 3cmc that makes you lose lands. Constant land drop is also important in order to pump your FOD to it's final evolution.

Well you gave me a number right (1%)???? Well, a good player can dodge stifle . . .plus never in my game play I see fod become its final evolution just a 4/4 max

Well anyways enough of my seismic assault, Ill give you a sample data regarding the use of fetchlands as a deck thinner

Let's assume we are in midgame (cause that's when we want to thin out our deck).
Let's assume we run 22 lands, 4 of which are already in play, no fetchland is used so far. It's about turn 6. we went first and play 1 GGUIDE and 1 BOLT so far. Pretty average.
Thus our library contains 60 - 7 (opening hand) - 5 (drawphases) - 1 (GGUIDE) - 1 (BOLT) = 46 cards (18 lands, 28 non-lands)

The odds on drawing a non-land card are 28/46 = 60,86%

Let's now assume "ALL" of our 4 lands we had so far were fetched
Thus our library size is reduced by 4 , so is our landcount. It's 42 cards (14 lands, 28 nonlands)

The odds on drawing a non-land card are 28/42 = 66,67% ( wow a 6% thats good imagine this in a late game with more fetches cracking up those % would go up)

That if we all drew fethches in the opening hand but try to imagine this if ever we still play in the midgame in some matches this would realy help us in the latter game in top drawing good cards 2% makes a difference what more is 6% or more in early drawing of fetches and during mid games.

[CabalTherapy]

Let's assume we are in midgame (cause that's when we want to thin out our deck).
Let's assume we run 22 lands, 4 of which are already in play, no fetchland is used so far.

Let's assume that we don't want to play midgame but instead of this, win as early as possible.
22 lands? You want to cast a Shivan Dragon or what?

Fetchlands are clearly not needed in burn.decs but everyone who feels the way like you can play them.
One fetchland does 5% of the damage to you in a game. That's the point.

[Pinoy Goblin]

Let's assume that we don't want to play midgame but instead of this, win as early as possible.
22 lands? You want to cast a Shivan Dragon or what?

Fetchlands are clearly not needed in burn.decs but everyone who feels the way like you can play them.
One fetchland does 5% of the damage to you in a game. That's the point.

common sense is hard to find these days, PEACE OUT