[Deck] Dredge

[Sedris]

Did some testing. Dredge was never able to win a post-board game against UW without LED. Usually, even if it didn't resolve, it did enough to still get the win.

CRAP.

Sry, but this isnt right. Yes, you may lose some gainst because of bad luck, but Ux control Mus are the best MUs for Dredge. I always love to play against, because they can't do anything.

How many test games did you do?

Btw: In the age of Konkurs, the deck won each game without LED, don't have an idea, why LED could improve your control mu.

[jares]

Did some testing. Dredge was never able to win a post-board game against UW without LED. Usually, even if it didn't resolve, it did enough to still get the win.

I would have to agree with Sedris here; I don't see how the presence of LED can drastically affect the results of the UX matchup such that Dredge can't win the match-up without it, which is what is being claimed here (correct me if I'm wrong).

Kind Regards,
jares

[Mandark]

With certain sideboard configurations, I can totally see this beeing true.
If they (as they should) go up to 8 Swords to Plowsheres/Path to Exile and happen to extract your Ichorids (a fairly likely scenario), you might end up dredging in vain, without any creatures to trigger your win conditions...

In my expirience, whenever I win against UW after board, I have a feeling I got extreamly lucky, either with my opponent not having the hate or just plain using it the wrong way.
As an exercise, try finding someone with prior Dredge expirience as the opponent piloting the U/W deck. I'm sure you won't enjoy the matchup quite as much :)

[lordofthepit]

In this thread, I learned that all the top Dredge performances in recent high-profile events came from terrible, braindead pilots playing laughingly suboptimal versions of the deck, but they just got really lucky. Amirite?

[Gui]

In this thread, I learned that all the top Dredge performances in recent high-profile events came from terrible, braindead pilots playing laughingly suboptimal versions of the deck, but they just got really lucky. Amirite?

In all honesty, this can happen. Doesn't mean it did, but it can. As long as the deck face low to no hate, the "sub-optimal" lists have an amazing ability of spitting in the face of the opponent nevertheless.

The problem here, as I see, is determining what is sub-optimal and what is just a plain right metacall.

That said, some of the pilots of the high-profile performances agreed that they should have played a slightly different deck some of the times.

Considering most dredge decks runs ~55 equal cards, and will perform the same as other lists ~90% of the time (disclaimer: this percentage is made up), it's quite possible that sub-optimal choices just happen to work. And also, it's quite possible people bash too much the remaining 5 cards if they don't agree with them, without considering the fact that 91,66% of the deck (disclaimer: this one is not) is usually exactly the same as all others.

About bad pilots, I doubt it, although it is possible that they just combo the easy way all day and win. I believe people watching live casts tend to forget how hard it is to sustain the tight technical play after N rounds and bash them too hard.

[lordofthepit]

In all honesty, this can happen. Doesn't mean it did, but it can. As long as the deck face low to no hate, the "sub-optimal" lists have an amazing ability of spitting in the face of the opponent nevertheless.

The problem here, as I see, is determining what is sub-optimal and what is just a plain right metacall.

That said, some of the pilots of the high-profile performances agreed that they should have played a slightly different deck some of the times.

Considering most dredge decks runs ~55 equal cards, and will perform the same as other lists ~90% of the time (disclaimer: this percentage is made up), it's quite possible that sub-optimal choices just happen to work. And also, it's quite possible people bash too much the remaining 5 cards if they don't agree with them, without considering the fact that 91,66% of the deck (disclaimer: this one is not) is usually exactly the same as all others.

About bad pilots, I doubt it, although it is possible that they just combo the easy way all day and win. I believe people watching live casts tend to forget how hard it is to sustain the tight technical play after N rounds and bash them too hard.

I have no problem with discussing why certain cards are suboptimal in a winning list, how those can be improved, whether some options are better in certain metas, etc. I have a problem with people who believe Moses came down from the mountain with the optimal 75-card Dredge list carved in stone tablets, that this list was revealed to the Chosen people, and that any deviation from this list (for which I still don't see a consensus) is blasphemous.

I also don't mind people discussing why certain lines of plays were bad. Hell, everyone saw it. I do have a problem when people try to dismiss all of their accomplishments and assume they played that badly through the entire tournament.

[Gui]

I have no problem with discussing why certain cards are suboptimal in a winning list, how those can be improved, whether some options are better in certain metas, etc. I have a problem with people who believe Moses came down from the mountain with the optimal 75-card Dredge list carved in stone tablets, that this list was revealed to the Chosen people, and that any deviation from this list (for which I still don't see a consensus) is blasphemous.

I also don't mind people discussing why certain lines of plays were bad. Hell, everyone saw it. I do have a problem when people try to dismiss all of their accomplishments and assume they played that badly through the entire tournament.

Agreed.

[Michael Keller]

Also one thing to take note of about the upcoming new primer: it's going to take me a little bit of time to get in as much information as possible. So far it is going extremely well and there is a lot already done but I'd just like to point out again that Dredge is very subjective and open to interpretation. What one person feels is optimal another might not see it as being that way. I am really just simply covering the basics and fundamentals of the archetype as a whole and am going a little bit into some other variations of Dredge that exist.

Just be patient and I'll make it worth while.

[HokusSchmokus]

@ Malakai:

Seriously, UW is about as good as a matchup can be.
Minimal interaction, even postboard, and no serious hate, what's not to love about the matchup.

[Mandark]

Minimal interaction, even postboard...

I'd like to know what amount, exactly, do you mean by "minimal".

Could you, perhaps, list all the relevant cards (ie. the ones interacting with us) you face in testing against postboard UW?

[Gui]

@ Malakai:

Seriously, UW is about as good as a matchup can be.
Minimal interaction, even postboard, and no serious hate, what's not to love about the matchup.

I wouldn't say so, they can counter your draw spells, they can counter LED and PImp, they can STP your Ichorids and, postboard, Extraction + Snapcaster can be a pain. Maybe it's still easy pre-board, but they do interact.

[HokusSchmokus]

I wouldn't say so, they can counter your draw spells, they can counter LED and PImp, they can STP your Ichorids and, postboard, Extraction + Snapcaster can be a pain. Maybe it's still easy pre-board, but they do interact.

They interact much less than most of the major other decks. Both pre and postboard.
Snapcaster-extraction is about as standard as it gets regarding hate.
All the relevant cards I tested against: Snapcaster Mage, Extraction, Swords, Path,Relic, Crypt, Cage, O-Ring, Stifle, Boomerang, Shackles, Jace, Batterskull, Gilded Drake, Sea Drake, Echoing Truths, Psionic Blast and some other stuff.
From those, what UW usually has is Snappy+ Swords, path and Extraction, sometimes relic or cage.
Now, in terms of relevance, it is not much more than other decks have game 1 and are still no bad preboard matchups.
when about 4-7 cards come in, only cage being relevant( extractions only in multiples), while both path and sword are not actually that bad for you, I call it minimal relevant interaction, I am sorry.

[jares]

I have no problem with discussing why certain cards are suboptimal in a winning list, how those can be improved, whether some options are better in certain metas, etc. I have a problem with people who believe Moses came down from the mountain with the optimal 75-card Dredge list carved in stone tablets, that this list was revealed to the Chosen people, and that any deviation from this list (for which I still don't see a consensus) is blasphemous.

I also don't mind people discussing why certain lines of plays were bad. Hell, everyone saw it. I do have a problem when people try to dismiss all of their accomplishments and assume they played that badly through the entire tournament.

Yep, you got that right - anything that The Chosen Ones don't like is blasphemous, especially when you win with it!

Cheers,
jares

[jares]

Also one thing to take note of about the upcoming new primer: it's going to take me a little bit of time to get in as much information as possible. So far it is going extremely well and there is a lot already done but I'd just like to point out again that Dredge is very subjective and open to interpretation. What one person feels is optimal another might not see it as being that way. I am really just simply covering the basics and fundamentals of the archetype as a whole and am going a little bit into some other variations of Dredge that exist.

Just be patient and I'll make it worth while.

I'll be looking forward to this

Cheers,
jares

[NewDredgePlayer]

Hi, I'm new to dredge and was wondering what you guys thought about the configuration below. I cut the cephalid coliseums and the dread return package in an attempt to make the deck more consistant.

Land 12
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
2 Tarnished Citadel
2 Undiscovered Paradise

Draw 12
4 Faithless Looting
4 Careful Study
4 Breakthrough

Dredgers 11
4 Golgari Grave Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug

Misc 25
4 Bridge from Below
4 Putrid Imp
4 Narcoemoeba
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
3 Ichorid
2 Entomb (golgari grave-trolls for the most part or faithless looting if LED is in play and there are dredgers in the graveyard/hand)

Thanks in advance for any suggestions!

[HokusSchmokus]

Hi, I'm new to dredge and was wondering what you guys thought about the configuration below. I cut the cephalid coliseums and the dread return package in an attempt to make the deck more consistant.

Land 12
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
2 Tarnished Citadel
2 Undiscovered Paradise

Draw 12
4 Faithless Looting
4 Careful Study
4 Breakthrough

Dredgers 11
4 Golgari Grave Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug

Misc 25
4 Bridge from Below
4 Putrid Imp
4 Narcoemoeba
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
3 Ichorid
2 Entomb (golgari grave-trolls for the most part or faithless looting if LED is in play and there are dredgers in the graveyard/hand)

Thanks in advance for any suggestions!

I think Coliseums are needed for a consistent dredge list.
Also, Entomb doesn't really do anything except binding mana and being too slow.

[joemauer]

Me thinks newdredgeplayer is trying to troll us with his 'new tech' of entomb.

We need to put links in the new primer where entomb has been discussed to death throughout this thread.
Oh and unmask while we are at it.

[HokusSchmokus]

I don't care. I like that we can count on someone to bring up entomb every 3 months, though;)

[Felidae]

After sweeping 4-0 with Idiotlife.dec and failing 1-3 with PSI in the last 2 weeks I decided to play LEDless Dredge in my weekly local tourney once again ( back to the roots I guess).


R1: Spiral Tide:
G1: He's on the play and starts with a Preordain, while I'm kinda greedy and start with a Carefull Study, in order to roll him over on turn 2 via Coliseum. Unfortunately he has the Force and then proceedes to kill me Turn 3.
Allthough I could have gone for DDD I doubt that the game would have ended in another way, as my only available dredgers where 2 Thugs and in my top 4 cards I had neither Therapy nor Moeba.

Sideboarding: None

G2: He mulligans and I kill him on turn two via Breakthrough, gg.

G3: We both have to mulligan and he leads with Ponder, while I start with a Study, discarding Troll and Imp in the process. On my 2nd turn I go for Coliseum and find allmost everything, except for Therapies, meh. But he doesn't have luck either, so he gets overwhelmed by Ichorids.

Still undefeated against Spiral Tide, sweet.


Round 2: The Gate

G1: He leads with Swamp, go, while I lead with a PImp. On his 2nd turn he destroyes my land with a Wasteland and casts a Innocent Blood, but after discarding Troll, Bridge, Bridge and Ichorid he looks a little sad and we are off to game 2.

Sideboarding: He trashtalked about him boarding 11 cards and how he would destroy me postboard...
+4 Claim +1 Ray of Revelation ( this guy allways runs a set Leyline and now he plays The Gate, so yeah.... guess this was a nobrainer) -1 Thug, -4 Looting

G2: I have to mulligan to 6 and he slams 3!!! Leylines on the table..... yeah good joke.

Sideboarding: -1 Darkblast +1 Looting ( I don't fear the turn 2 Bob on the play )

G3: I lead with a Putrid Imp, while he doesn't have a Leyline this time, but a turn 1 Thoughtseize, forcing me to discard my Natures Claim, however seeing the Coliseum in my hand made him kinda mad.
Long story short: I dump a good choke of my deck in my yard, pick his hand apart and thats all there is to say.

Afterwards he shows me the following: 4 Leylines, 2 Nihil Spellbomb, 3 Extirpate, 2 Infest... holy cow I guess I was really lucky to win this :S.

Round 3: Burn

G1: He's on the play and I keep a very lose hand: Citadel, 2 Breakthrough, Moeba, Troll, Study, Bridge. So my plan was simple: DDD and then go crasy turn 2 with Breakthrough. He leads with a Goblin Guide, reavealing a 3rd Breakthrough and on my turn I simply draw and discard Troll.
He goes for a turn 2 Hellspark and attacks me down to 13, revealing a Therapy with the Guide. I dredge for my turn and guess what: I don't find another dredger. sweet. So I had to discard the troll again.
On his turn he goes for a Figure of Destiny, recurring his Hellspark and attacks me down to 8 life, while his Guide reaveled a 2nd Troll.
So I finaly dredge into buisness and go for Citadell, Breakthrough, dropping to 5 life.
And then we have a big missunderstanding that leads to my victory, a pretty uncomfortable victory.

Here we go: I have 2 Moebaes, 3 Bridges and a single Therapy, while he has 2 cards in his hand.
I cast my Therapy, ask him whether or not my Bridge trigger resolves and then ask again whether or not Therapy resolves. He asked what he should do in response and I answer: "Fireblast". He thought that this was the card I wanted to name with Therapy and so he revealed his hand, containing 2 PoP. Ofc I was totaly confused, until I realized what just happend. We call a judge and he rules in my favor, as the Therapy was still on the stack when I said Fireblast and as we all know we have to name a card when the Therapy resolves.

Out of curiosity: How often do you use dirty tricks with Therapy ( i.e. casting Therapy, then immediately announce something ( lets say Brainstorm), then wait if he casts the Brainstorm and then name a different card, or simply name a card and then ask "So does Therapy resolves?" while hoping that he will reveal his hand in the process)?

So far I never used it, allthough I haven't had any situation where I wanted to use it ( i.e. playing against some jerk who really deserves some dirty trick like that), yet.

Well lets go back to the game. He topdecks a land, attacks with his team and I chump his Guide with my Moeabe and block his Figure with a token, leading to 3 more token, no Bridges and an allmost empty board on his side.
3 Ichorids later I bring him down to 3, leaving a lonely token behind to block his Guide. He doesn't draw Lava Axe and we are off to game 2.

Sideboarding: None

G2.: He starts with Mountain, Grafediggers Cage. My jaw nearly drops to the floor while he simply laughs his ass off.

Sideboarding: +2 Grudge +2 Chewer -1 Darkblast -3 Looting

G3.: He mulligans and I start with a Therapy on him, looking for Cage ( in order to win turn 2 with a PImp and a Breakthrough), he reveals a couple of brunspells and no real hate, draws for his turn, smiles and slams Cage on the table. Needles to say I don't find my hate and my lone PImp can'T race him ( who would have guessed).

Afterwards he shows me his boarding: +2 Cage and +2 Volcanic Fallout.... yeah sometimes you win against 9 (11) hate cards and sometimes you lose against 2(4).

Round 4: Combo Elves

G1: I start with a Study, hitting a PImp and another Study, while discarding Bridge and Imp. He simply leads with Llanowar Elf. On my turn I dredge, don't find another dredger, cast PImp, discard the lone Imp, cast my 2nd Study and fail to find another dredger once more. However I hit 2 Bridges and 2 Therapies, so I sac my PImp for a Therapy, taking 2 Glimpse from his hand and then flashback the 2nd one, taking a Sentinel, leaving him with a Cradle, a Dryad Arbor and a land.
He scoopes it up 2 turns later.

Sideboarding: +3 Fireblast +1 Darkblast, -1 Thug, -3 Looting

G2: One again he leads with a Llanowar Elf, while I had to mulligan down to 5 and lead with a PImp. He then goes for another 1 mana Elf, Heritage Druid ,Fauna Shaman. Pretty solid, however I have a 2nd turn Coliseum ( yeah a really good mulligan) and proceed to turn my deck upside down. 2 Therapies later he's left with an empty hand but he still topdecks a creature (well I guess this was fair , considering that ~65% of his deck are creatures) and survivals for.... Elvish Visionary!
No Ooze, no Loaming Shaman, just a simple Visionary, sweet.
Long story short: Ichorids and Zombies take him down.

Afterwards he told me that Ooze and Shaman were still in the mail, lucky me.


So yeah I'm a lucksack, but sometimes I'd rather be lucky than good ;).

so long

Felidae_

[Vandalize]

After sweeping 4-0 with Idiotlife.dec and failing 1-3 with PSI in the last 2 weeks I decided to play LEDless Dredge in my weekly local tourney once again ( back to the roots I guess).


R1: Spiral Tide:
G1: He's on the play and starts with a Preordain, while I'm kinda greedy and start with a Carefull Study, in order to roll him over on turn 2 via Coliseum. Unfortunately he has the Force and then proceedes to kill me Turn 3.
Allthough I could have gone for DDD I doubt that the game would have ended in another way, as my only available dredgers where 2 Thugs and in my top 4 cards I had neither Therapy nor Moeba.

Sideboarding: None

G2: He mulligans and I kill him on turn two via Breakthrough, gg.

G3: We both have to mulligan and he leads with Ponder, while I start with a Study, discarding Troll and Imp in the process. On my 2nd turn I go for Coliseum and find allmost everything, except for Therapies, meh. But he doesn't have luck either, so he gets overwhelmed by Ichorids.

Still undefeated against Spiral Tide, sweet.


Round 2: The Gate

G1: He leads with Swamp, go, while I lead with a PImp. On his 2nd turn he destroyes my land with a Wasteland and casts a Innocent Blood, but after discarding Troll, Bridge, Bridge and Ichorid he looks a little sad and we are off to game 2.

Sideboarding: He trashtalked about him boarding 11 cards and how he would destroy me postboard...
+4 Claim +1 Ray of Revelation ( this guy allways runs a set Leyline and now he plays The Gate, so yeah.... guess this was a nobrainer) -1 Thug, -4 Looting

G2: I have to mulligan to 6 and he slams 3!!! Leylines on the table..... yeah good joke.

Sideboarding: -1 Darkblast +1 Looting ( I don't fear the turn 2 Bob on the play )

G3: I lead with a Putrid Imp, while he doesn't have a Leyline this time, but a turn 1 Thoughtseize, forcing me to discard my Natures Claim, however seeing the Coliseum in my hand made him kinda mad.
Long story short: I dump a good choke of my deck in my yard, pick his hand apart and thats all there is to say.

Afterwards he shows me the following: 4 Leylines, 2 Nihil Spellbomb, 3 Extirpate, 2 Infest... holy cow I guess I was really lucky to win this :S.

Round 3: Burn

G1: He's on the play and I keep a very lose hand: Citadel, 2 Breakthrough, Moeba, Troll, Study, Bridge. So my plan was simple: DDD and then go crasy turn 2 with Breakthrough. He leads with a Goblin Guide, reavealing a 3rd Breakthrough and on my turn I simply draw and discard Troll.
He goes for a turn 2 Hellspark and attacks me down to 13, revealing a Therapy with the Guide. I dredge for my turn and guess what: I don't find another dredger. sweet. So I had to discard the troll again.
On his turn he goes for a Figure of Destiny, recurring his Hellspark and attacks me down to 8 life, while his Guide reaveled a 2nd Troll.
So I finaly dredge into buisness and go for Citadell, Breakthrough, dropping to 5 life.
And then we have a big missunderstanding that leads to my victory, a pretty uncomfortable victory.

Here we go: I have 2 Moebaes, 3 Bridges and a single Therapy, while he has 2 cards in his hand.
I cast my Therapy, ask him whether or not my Bridge trigger resolves and then ask again whether or not Therapy resolves. He asked what he should do in response and I answer: "Fireblast". He thought that this was the card I wanted to name with Therapy and so he revealed his hand, containing 2 PoP. Ofc I was totaly confused, until I realized what just happend. We call a judge and he rules in my favor, as the Therapy was still on the stack when I said Fireblast and as we all know we have to name a card when the Therapy resolves.

Out of curiosity: How often do you use dirty tricks with Therapy ( i.e. casting Therapy, then immediately announce something ( lets say Brainstorm), then wait if he casts the Brainstorm and then name a different card, or simply name a card and then ask "So does Therapy resolves?" while hoping that he will reveal his hand in the process)?

So far I never used it, allthough I haven't had any situation where I wanted to use it ( i.e. playing against some jerk who really deserves some dirty trick like that), yet.

Well lets go back to the game. He topdecks a land, attacks with his team and I chump his Guide with my Moeabe and block his Figure with a token, leading to 3 more token, no Bridges and an allmost empty board on his side.
3 Ichorids later I bring him down to 3, leaving a lonely token behind to block his Guide. He doesn't draw Lava Axe and we are off to game 2.

Sideboarding: None

G2.: He starts with Mountain, Grafediggers Cage. My jaw nearly drops to the floor while he simply laughs his ass off.

Sideboarding: +2 Grudge +2 Chewer -1 Darkblast -3 Looting

G3.: He mulligans and I start with a Therapy on him, looking for Cage ( in order to win turn 2 with a PImp and a Breakthrough), he reveals a couple of brunspells and no real hate, draws for his turn, smiles and slams Cage on the table. Needles to say I don't find my hate and my lone PImp can'T race him ( who would have guessed).

Afterwards he shows me his boarding: +2 Cage and +2 Volcanic Fallout.... yeah sometimes you win against 9 (11) hate cards and sometimes you lose against 2(4).

Round 4: Combo Elves

G1: I start with a Study, hitting a PImp and another Study, while discarding Bridge and Imp. He simply leads with Llanowar Elf. On my turn I dredge, don't find another dredger, cast PImp, discard the lone Imp, cast my 2nd Study and fail to find another dredger once more. However I hit 2 Bridges and 2 Therapies, so I sac my PImp for a Therapy, taking 2 Glimpse from his hand and then flashback the 2nd one, taking a Sentinel, leaving him with a Cradle, a Dryad Arbor and a land.
He scoopes it up 2 turns later.

Sideboarding: +3 Fireblast +1 Darkblast, -1 Thug, -3 Looting

G2: One again he leads with a Llanowar Elf, while I had to mulligan down to 5 and lead with a PImp. He then goes for another 1 mana Elf, Heritage Druid ,Fauna Shaman. Pretty solid, however I have a 2nd turn Coliseum ( yeah a really good mulligan) and proceed to turn my deck upside down. 2 Therapies later he's left with an empty hand but he still topdecks a creature (well I guess this was fair , considering that ~65% of his deck are creatures) and survivals for.... Elvish Visionary!
No Ooze, no Loaming Shaman, just a simple Visionary, sweet.
Long story short: Ichorids and Zombies take him down.

Afterwards he told me that Ooze and Shaman were still in the mail, lucky me.


So yeah I'm a lucksack, but sometimes I'd rather be lucky than good ;).

so long

Felidae_

Would you mind posting your list? I've dropped LED's as well, since I've started to lose to Artifact GY-Hate again.

This is my current list:
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
4 Cephalid Coliseum
2 Tarnished Citadel

4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug
1 Darkblast

4 Breakthrough
4 Careful Study
4 Faithless Looting

4 Putrid Imp
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba

4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Dread Return

SB: 4 Nature's Claim
SB: 3 Faerie Macabre
SB: 3 Firestorm
SB: 2 Ancient Grudge
SB: 1 Ingot Chewer
SB: 1 Chain of Vapor
SB: 1 Iona, Shield of Emeria