You're 100% right when it comes to pre board games, or games where there is no interaction at all. As soon as you face hate, Tireless Tribe is suddenly a million times better than LED and I'm not exaggerating. Having LEDs in your deck when your opponent has active hate pieces is a huge liability. I know that you can just 'race' some conditional hate every now and then.Originally Posted by Hollywood
I'm not afraid of being half a turn slower against Combo decks. Especially not after I figured out that the speed discrepancy is much smaller than I thought. I'm afraid of losing games to graveyard hate. And this is where LED sucks hard.
The question people have to ask themselves is whether they'd rather have an improved post board game when facing any sorts of graveyard hate or if they want to be half a turn faster in games that you usually win anyway.
Tribe is better maindeck I think. They are bodies for Therapy, and blocks like a champ. Firestorm would be better if I was expecting more GW Maverick, but there were just 1 in the tournament.
LEDless uses Cabal Therapy better, simply because it can cast it off Lands and have more bodies for Flashback (another reason to choose Tribe), while LED usually flashbacks it after comboing.
The 3-1 split was mainly due to having 3 Foil Tireless Tribes only, lol.
As for Dread Return, I've been happy with it everytime I saw it. I think that the small chance to get it in the opening hand is overcome by it's ability to make lots of Zombies and a huge Troll in the process. I was about to try a Flame-kin Zealot in MD Firestorm slot, but changed it in the last minute.
Perhaps I'm going to fit that FKZ somewhere in the main deck again. My friend said something I couldn't agree more: In Legacy, you can't afford to pass the turn, you lose if you pass the turn.
@jares: Tarnished Citadel sucks (mostly against burn). But until they print a gold land with a better drawback, I'm sticking with it.
Let your Dredge 6 be: Narco, Narco, Narco, Bridge, Bridge, Dread Return
But see that's just the thing: you can't be afraid of graveyard hate, even with LED in the mix. LED is not a liability, it's a broken enabler that plants your library into your graveyard fast enough where all you'll really need (especially against slower combo decks or decks ill-equipped to deal with Dredge) is a solid discard spell to shake things up. Practice with Therapy is critical. I cannot understate this.
I've had so many people - including real life - rage-quit on me because of blind Therapies crushing their hands. Therapy is incredibly important in sideboard games.
The problem people are having is that they are just resigning themselves to fearing and losing to Extraction when they should just blow the card out. An opponent isn't going to always have one, and the deck is equipped to fight Crypt and Leyline as-is post-board. Surgical Extraction is only decent in the hands of a player who knows how to use it, and with someone who has the nut-high with Snapcaster Mage.
Otherwise, I am not wasting my time and I'm going for the blowout win. Sure, I've walked into Extraction before. But that's a card I only care about in distinct circumstances, where I cannot and should not play around it because all it will do is give the player playing it - who doesn't have it in their hand - more time to find one as turns progress.
The best way to beat Surgical Extraction is to take it on full steam ahead and not fear it. You'll win more games than you'll lose against it, trust me.
Leyline is a different story. I think the card is garbage, and if an opponent is that hard-up on trying to find one to slow me down, I have some free mulligans and plenty of draw spells to get me removal when I need it. If my opponent is running both Extraction and Leyline (overloading on hate), then good for them. Play tight and play around it.
KevinTrudeau
Are the Flayer-backers (over FKZ) wanting a third Dread Return in the maindeck or sideboard?
You need the third maindeck, because you need to dredge into two to win the game on the spot.
-----
Also, the people who are saying that LED is always boarded out in favor of more lands are suffering from the misconception that LED is a turn one combo card. You ALWAYS have the ability to cast it, but not crack it immediately if that's what the situation calls for. I found myself rarely siding out LEDs, because they are a really good enabler that supercharges Faithless Lootings. And I can see that the players who are winning with LED builds do not have lands in their side, also.
That's not what I meant. I'm well aware of what LED can do if noone interacts with me. It doesn't get us anywhere if every time someone points at a disadvantage of LED, the counter argument is always the same: 'But LED is so fast. And so broken. Just run it!'
But what if your opponent has a Tormod's Crypt on the board? Say you have Land+Breakthrough+Dredger+LED. You can't do anything. Literally nothing. You have to overcommit and use your BT to draw some random cards and try to hit another Dredger. And even if you find one, you might not find another one.
Now, if that LED was a Tireless Tribe, it looks a zillion times better. Slowdredge until they're forced to crack the Crypt, bin the Dredger again and go off via Breakthrough. End of story. And in the process, you take X less damage each turn because your 1/X guy blocks their guys to no end.
I know that people seem to be winning with LED Dredge. But do you also know how many people get crushed horribly in tournaments? No, you don't, because you usually only see the top 16, not the bottom 16.
And let's be honest: After Dredge was hyped like nothing after DKA became legal, where are the results? Dredge doesn't perform any better than before Looting, not in the slightest. A top 8 here, two top 16 there - nothing special. And it's not only because of the graveyard hate. Look at how much grave hate people had in their sbs at the SCG Invitational. Immediately after Lootings became legal, all you heard was that the tournament rooms were full of LED Dredge lists. Yet, apart from Prosaks luck-sack win and your top 8, I didn't see any extraordinary results. LEDless Dredge performed just as well before.
@Vandalize: Thanks for your feedback ^^
Well, I play Firestorm over Tribe exactly because of the increasing number of Maverick (and some Merfolk too, this deck is still very present in my metagame), but I can see tribe's merit.
I just can't agree with the addition of FKZ. It does help racing once in a while, but it's too conditional, I'd rather run a more solid target, maybe Iona. Iona doesn't win right away, but can block a considerable number of plays and is evasive (this can be incredibly useful against Aggro, blocking their removals and swinging while your zombies can block).
Avacyn, Angel of Hope 5WWW
Flying, Vigilance
Avacyn, Angel of Hope and other permanents you control are indestructable. 8/8
My colors are... ZONK!
You haven't any colors. You play Dredge.
You love games, which are unfair. You hate Reanimator & NicFit.
At good days, you destroy everything. At bad days,
you draw Narcomoebas. But the most important thing:
Everybody hates you!
Swords to Plowshares
How about a tortured existence/street wraith sideboard?
I agree. I find that, at this point in time, we'll really just need to make do with what we have. Have you considered running Undiscovered Paradise in the place of some Tarnished Citadels?
Cheers,
jares
While there's every chance that that might work, it looks to me like investing several slots in the sideboard for the purpose of combating Surgical Extraction might do more harm than good.
Kind Regards,
jares
That happens with each creature without shroud. But if she stays one turn, it should be good game. Your lands can't be destroyed and your zombies are save.But Hey just in theory.Swords to Plowshares
My colors are... ZONK!
You haven't any colors. You play Dredge.
You love games, which are unfair. You hate Reanimator & NicFit.
At good days, you destroy everything. At bad days,
you draw Narcomoebas. But the most important thing:
Everybody hates you!
I'm testing sans Putrid Imp, LED and Coliseum in favor of Phantasmagorian, Undiscovered Paradise and X draw spell
@Vandalize
I don't think it's a question of Tireless Tribe vs Faithless Looting, if you're willing to cut a Land, the Firestorm and the Darkblast from the deck you can play 3xFaithless Looting as sub-par Careful Studies and still keep your 2xDread Return.
Are you SBing out Dread Return vs Surgical Extraction or SBing in Dread Return targets vs Surgical Extraction? I find Surgical Extraction on Golgari Grave Troll neuters its usefulness post-board
Hi,
I just have a quick and easy question for you probably. Why is it that the deck running Flayer most oftenly only have 2 Ichorids? Wouldn't it be better to have more to be able to do more direct damage?
You say it. Doesn't really have to do wth the Flayer, though...
Of course it would be better to have more Ichys. But those Flayer lists also run LED and running LED forces you to cut back on some of the best cards of the deck, namely Ichorid and sometimes Breakthrough, Careful Study, Cabal Therapy and most importantly Lands.
I think LEDless still has an edge, but it's tunned to fight the wrong set of hates. The reason why LEDless is chosen over LED is the options we used to get from Chain of Vapor, Nature's Claim, Ancient Grudge and Ray of Revelation out of the side, with the ability to cast them way more often, since running a high amount of lands.
This configuration fights through Tormod's and Relics, but isn't amazing at fighting Extraction or the current deck to beat we see everywhere - Maverick. IMHO, if you want to play LEDless, you need to choose the cards and sideboards to tune the deck against these.
Since LED can fight Maverick with raw speed, and can fight extraction pretty much the same as LEDless, as of right now, out of the two common builds, LED is better. LEDless needs to evolve.
If you fail to explain the reason behind your choice, technically, it's the wrong choice.
Zerk Thread -- Really, fun deck! ^^
SB 4xFirestorm, problem solved.
This doesn't fight Extraction, and you have 40% chance of fighting Maverick... doesn't impress me much...
Also doesn't fight Cage.
If you fail to explain the reason behind your choice, technically, it's the wrong choice.
Zerk Thread -- Really, fun deck! ^^
It isn't that easy dude...
What do you board out for Firestorms? You can't boar out LED because then you lose speed against Maverick. Even with Firestorm in the Main you don't constantly beat Maverick [or even worse] Bant.
Also, it doesn't fight Extraction, like Gui said.
Kenjawn, Mutator of Cells
:16:- (See, now Erratic Explosion's a deck)
Legendary Creature - Horror
Haste, Hexproof, Double Strike, Trample
Kenjawn, Mutator of Cells is indestructible.
Permanents you control can't be sacrificed or copied.
Whenever Kenjawn, Mutator of Cells attacks, defending player gets liver cancer (This effect doesn't end at end of turn.)
13/13
Played in a local tourney with my LEDless list(it's posted somewhere before the discussion "tribe or looting"). It turned out that my meta is infested with Crypt's and Relic's- so I'll have to stick with Tribe for a while. Got 4-1(loosing to Doomsday combo 1-2 because I forgot about their other combo plan in sb and missed blind Cabal Therapy there).
In the top 8 I lost to RUG Delver(1-2, won in rounds before 2-1 against him btw) because of the sb cards not comming into hand at 2nd game and all of them comming to hand and grave the 3rd game.
My qs for YOU:
1) What would be the right sb plan for this matchup? 4th Ichorid+ some artifact hate 2, 3 or 4?(he was playing relics)+ Firestorms(how many?)+ Elesh? What should I take out from LEDless?
2) When should I go for DDD plan playing against RUG Delver? Always?
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