All B/R update speculation.

[JeroenC]

Fair. Lets try Mind's Desire as well. I'd rather experiment and then ban rather than let the cards sit and rot in the banned list. FFS, isn't Ad Nauseam better than Mind's Desire? Lower CMC, easier colors, guaranteed draws? Am I correct?

I hope I'm missing the sarcasm here because I'm entirely sick of people suggesting that MD is weaker than AN.

[Vacrix]

Mind's Desire.dec would be powerful because you could run Force of Will, unlike AdN.dec

Then again, what advantage as a business spell would it really have over TS in Spiral Tide? It costs the same, and effectively wins you the game that turn. How do these decks compare? Surely MD.dec wouldn't necessarily need to hit land drops like TS is that really relevant when you are trying to hit 4UU? Thats usually going to be a turn 2 play much like AdN. I don't think it would be absurdly broken. We already have a few combo decks that can run Force of Will maindeck with absurdly broken turn 2 plays (Reanimator and Sneak/Show) in the DTB.

Granted, its just another goody for Storm Combo and if they can hit 4UU after Burning Wish then its likely GG. Honestly though, I'd think non-storm-combo combo is the favored combo decks right now, ie. Sneak Show and Reanimator.

[Gheizen64]

If 4 academy in a deck were legal I wonder what the cost would go up to...

And it's on the reserved list too... Yeah, it would be pretty zZZzz

[JeroenC]

Granted, its just another goody for Storm Combo and if they can hit 4UU after Burning Wish then its likely GG. Honestly though, I'd think non-storm-combo combo is the favored combo decks right now, ie. Sneak Show and Reanimator.

Except Storm won't put it in the SB, it'll just put 4 in the maindeck. I don't think you quite understand how insane one MD is- let alone when you factor in the added power from chaining a couple of MD into each other.

[I am the brainwasher]

I hope I'm missing the sarcasm here because I'm entirely sick of people suggesting that MD is weaker than AN.

+1

[Bryant Cook]

I hope I'm missing the sarcasm here because I'm entirely sick of people suggesting that MD is weaker than AN.

It is weaker than Ad Nauseam in ritual based storm combo.

It's a storm engine that loses to Stifle.
Requires off colored mana.
Isn't even close to a guarantee compared to Nauseam.
If it were unbanned tomorrow I'd buy two Japanese foils, one for my sideboard, one for the maindeck.

It wouldn't be a four of in Ritual based combo, maybe high tide combo.

[JeroenC]

Because just sliding it into an existing deck is not the best way to use it. I'm pretty sure if it was unbanned, better players than me would find the correct build for that deck and it would be a stronger Storm deck than current decks. I don't pretend to have anywhere near the deckbuilding skills to draft something up, but I do remember playing MD ages ago in old Extended and holy shit was that ever insane.

Esp in High Tide. If Time Spiral is already considered a guaranteed win, this is so even more- instead of drawing the cards (and letting your opponent draw some more Forces), you just cast the cards. And the remark about MD into MD still goes.

[Bryant Cook]

Because just sliding it into an existing deck is not the best way to use it. I'm pretty sure if it was unbanned, better players than me would find the correct build for that deck and it would be a stronger Storm deck than current decks. I don't pretend to have anywhere near the deckbuilding skills to draft something up, but I do remember playing MD ages ago in old Extended and holy shit was that ever insane.

Esp in High Tide. If Time Spiral is already considered a guaranteed win, this is so even more- instead of drawing the cards (and letting your opponent draw some more Forces), you just cast the cards. And the remark about MD into MD still goes.

There wouldn't be a better Ritual based storm deck. Just like Past in Flames, right? People said the same things when that card was released. "It would be better off as a Past in Flames deck rather than jammed into pre-existing ones". How many of those have you seen do well? Mind Desire would be the same. Mind's desire for 7 isn't always a guaranteed win. I can't count how many times I've Returns into 7 mana sources. Same is possible for Desire. I'm not saying Desire is bad, I'm saying it's often not the right choice over Ad Nauseam. Which will draw anywhere between 14-27 cards in TES with 15-20 life. They would work great in conjunction with one another but a Desire based ritual deck but it's self would look like Belcher with Manamorphose and other cards that aren't great.

[Gui]

Just like Past in Flames, right? People said the same things when that card was released. "It would be better off as a Past in Flames deck rather than jammed into pre-existing ones". How many of those have you seen do well?

Hmmm... there are Past in Flames oriented decks, and although TC decks and SCG fail to name them, I believe they are called Grinding Station and they look like this:

http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/dec...5&iddeck=57655

How is this deck Ad Nauseam storm, featuring 1x AdN in sideboard only?

[Bryant Cook]

Hmmm... there are Past in Flames oriented decks, and although TC decks and SCG fail to name them, I believe they are called Grinding Station and they look like this:

http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/dec...5&iddeck=57655

How is this deck Ad Nauseam storm, featuring 1x AdN in sideboard only?

Cool dude. You found the exception in a situation.

[Gui]

Cool dude. You found the exception in a situation.

Yeah, the exception you said that didn't exist in your example. Nice example.

[coraz86]

Barring its power level, I'm pretty sure one reason Desire is banned is (as with shit like Shahrazad) is the logistics of actually using it. The card says to shuffle your deck, then reveal the top card--every time it resolves. One of my friends played Mind's Desire at GP-Philadelphia 2008 and he said the judges were walking around making sure people actually did shuffle their deck every time a copy fired. And then what the fuck do you do if you hit a second one? And that's hoping honest, rational people are running the deck; what if you get someone prone to taking their time?

I'm not even trying to talk about the power level of the card--I don't want to be part of a troll-fest--I'm just saying that the card is physically a pain in the ass to play with. That's what got SDT banned from Extended after that Grand Prix, and honestly could have gotten it banned from Standard when it was in print--the card just takes so goddamn long to play with.

[Bryant Cook]

Yeah, the exception you said that didn't exist in your example. Nice example.

I never said they don't exist. I said they don't do well. One Star City Games top 8 doesn't mean much, compared to the numbers that other storm decks have.

[Gui]

I never said they don't exist. I said they don't do well. One Star City Games top 8 doesn't mean much, compared to the numbers that other storm decks have.

That was not the first list I've seen, and TBH I just opened AdN Storm at TC Decks and one of the first was it already. I've seen at least 2 reports here @TS as well with it. I think PiF is exactly as you said it wouldn't be, it's an engine for a different deck. One that is less played and less known than ANT for sure, but maybe not worse.

[Bryant Cook]

That was not the first list I've seen, and TBH I just opened AdN Storm at TC Decks and one of the first was it already. I've seen at least 2 reports here @TS as well with it. I think PiF is exactly as you said it wouldn't be, it's an engine for a different deck. One that is less played and less known than ANT for sure, but maybe not worse.

You're missing the point.

I don't care that it's the exception, I don't care that it's not the first list you've seen, I said, "they don't do well."

Two whole reports, huh? Wow, I'll message Peter_Rotten to get him to move it to the DTB forum because clearly that's were "Past in Flames combo" belongs. Anyone can play a deck and place in some half ass'd event. The point was that Past in Flames combo decks aren't as good as the other storm variants.

[DragoFireheart]

That was not the first list I've seen, and TBH I just opened AdN Storm at TC Decks and one of the first was it already. I've seen at least 2 reports here @TS as well with it. I think PiF is exactly as you said it wouldn't be, it's an engine for a different deck. One that is less played and less known than ANT for sure, but maybe not worse.

You're missing the point.

2 Reports != doing well. There is some correlation between decks that perform well frequently and how often we see reports of those decks.

Anyways, I would be fine with seeing Mind's Desire unbanned. Combo can already win on turn 1: I doubt Mind's Desire is going to change that detail all that much.

[Gui]

You're missing the point.

2 Reports != doing well. There is some correlation between decks that perform well frequently and how often we see reports of those decks.

Anyways, I would be fine with seeing Mind's Desire unbanned. Combo can already win on turn 1: I doubt Mind's Desire is going to change that detail all that much.

I see, so you think a deck is bad because it's not as played. Ok, that's your opinion, tho, and I don't agree. With that mindset, Candelabra High Tide is terrible.
And there won't be any innovative list, ever.

Just as a mind exercise, how many Top 8 players do you think have access or time to test any deck he wanted to play? There are more reasons than "It's plain bad" for decks to be underplayed. If for anything, a regular ANT player that didn't want to try or develop Grinding Station as much as these few other examples would just take ANT to a tourney. This doesn't mean GS is bad.

It takes a lot of effort to develop a deck to a level were it's actually a DTB (which is strongly related to how much a deck is played, even more than to how strong the deck is, since it is used to predict metagames).

Bryant should know that much, since he brought T.E.S. from the status of underplayed to the status of DTB.

[Vacrix]

The point is that High Tide decks already fill the niche in the metagame that a Mind's Desire deck would. It can play Force of Will to protect itself during the combo turn and before the combo turn, unlike most storm combo that requires discard to protect itself before the combo turn and Chant effects to protect it's combo turn. With that in mind, Chants are honestly the best way to protect your combo; you don't have to deal with card disadvantage which means you can go off with more cards in hand and perhaps play another protection spell. Spiral Tide is a pretty consistent turn 3 combo deck that runs Force and nobody is complaining that its overpowered. It plays a storm engine that is arguably as powerful as Mind's Desire, Time Spiral, which almost ensures a victory once it resolves. How fast would Mind's Desire.dec be? Turn 2? Turn 3? I don't see Mind's Desire.dec filling a niche that hasn't already been filled. I agree, it will be good but it will fit into an existing deck for sure, likely Spiral Tide.

Now.. to compare it to Ad Nauseam.. We have to keep in mind that one of the reasons Ad Nauseam is so dangerous in TES and ANT is because you can play Infernal Tutor into it, utilizing Lion's Eye Diamond to produce 3 mana, and a ritual and a few initial mana sources to produce the other 4. Mind's Desire doesn't have that luxury because it costs 6 after Infernal Tutor or Burning Wish. 8 is quite a lot to expect consistently. You can't expect to be hitting 4UU consistently WITH enough storm to actually do something. If you did, you'd likely Mind's Desire for 7-9 cards, and hopefully hit a win condition or another Desire. Now what does Ad Nauseam do? It doesn't require storm at all, you could play it having only produced 3 storm, land, Dark Ritual, Dark Ritual, Ad Nauseam. Because its based on your life total and not storm, you will usually be getting more cards out of it than you would with Mind's Desire. Ad Nauseam is simply a better storm engine than Mind's Desire.

I challenge someone to throw together a decklist on Cockatrice or MWS that would be better than any of the current storm decks. I guarentee you that Mind's Desire would fit into a High Tide build.

[Di]

I challenge someone to throw together a decklist on Cockatrice or MWS that would be better than any of the current storm decks. I guarentee you that Mind's Desire would fit into a High Tide build.

I don't think it's plausible for Mind's Desire to fit into an existing build of High Tide. It can be built around it, sure, but it'd look drastically different than what the current decklists look like. Even then though, I don't think Mind's Desire is close to Time Spiral in terms of power and think it'd be worse off than the current builds. It really just doesn't have good synergy whereas Time Spiral is the best damn card in the deck.

For starters, the direction of the deck is to use High Tide to build mana and ramp into a win. Mind's Desire is based on ignoring mana costs so you can simply play things for free. If the engine of the deck can't abuse what you use to start it, then it's not going to do a great job at winning. High Tide will help you cast Mind's Desire, but you won't be able to reliably get it over 5-6 storm early on a consistent basis. It just isn't how the deck plays out. Plus, odds are you're either tapping out or tapping really low to cast it. If you don't hit a Turnabout off Desire (or another Desire itself), then your lands and any additional High Tides are essentially useless, not to mention any cards you draw off the cantrips and tutors you play for free as you can't do anything else in the turn. Plus, you need a lot more storm to win than Tendrils. 10 is rather easy. 15-16 isn't nearly as easy when you're monoblue trying to kill with Brain Freeze. I'm not saying it isn't workable because it definitely is, but the deck would need a complete makeover to make it happen.

If Time Spiral was banned, then this is a different story. But given that is far and away better for the deck, it just isn't going to cut it. I really only see Mind's Desire being something that can work with Ritual effects that can build mana off of it. Trying to use an engine that revolves around your lands with it is much harder to do as there is only Turnabout to do that, not to mention the easier kill in Tendrils.

[Vacrix]

I think it could fit into the UB Mucktide build with success. You'd be going off turn 3 rather consistently with access to both blue mana and 8 land dependent rituals that can accelerate you into Mind's Desire. Combined with a Snapcaster/Snap engine, I can see the deck playing Mind's Desire effectively. Also, the deck often plays 4 Tendrils, though that number might drop after you add Desires. I think you won't have too much trouble finding a win condition after Desire. As long as you hit another Desires, a Tendrils, or a Turnabout/Snap you should be able to continue the spell chain. I'm gonna start testing a list just for kicks.

My point was really more that I don't think a Mind's Desire.dec could do anything that TES, ANT, Doomsday, or High Tide can't. Its a strong storm engine for sure but is speaking of a list that doesn't exist really that strong an argument when we don't know yet if it will be any stronger than the other storm decks? What niche will it fill? Doomsday can beat Counterbalance with piles like the Emrakul/Isle package. TES and ANT can smash aggro control with Chants and Duress effects. High Tide can play Force.

EDIT:
The main advantages I see in Mind's Desire as a storm engine over Ad Nauseam in TES is that you can play Force of Will and you don't have to pay life to start the engine (opening up Lim Dul's Vault as a setup piece). Is there anything else?