[Deck] Dredge

[HokusSchmokus]

On second thought, I am not convinced. If you have a flying 7/7 you are likely to win anyway. This card is also absurdly bad against ravenous trap,which will be the hate of choice once people start playing it

[Izor]

Guys, guys... You're really getting a little too excited about Mr Griselbrand.


This guy is just as much a win more card as Sphinx, except the Sphinx actually does the same thing without costing you any life points. If you dredge three more times with Sphinx, you are going to find another CT and DR anyway, so you really dredge the same amount.

Not to speak of the fact that Griselbrand only dredges like 4-5 times for 7 life max, because your deck will be gone by then.

Griselbrand is entirely useless against hate. This argument is pretty ridiculous... If you're able to DR your opponent obviously didn't have any hate, so it's once again very unnecessary.



This card is 100% unnecessary in Dredge. I mean, of course people will see results with it if everyone started running it right now, because you can basically win tournaments with Vizzerdrix as your target (which again shows how irrelevant DR targets are in general). But in fact this card does not improve this deck by any means and it will definitely not be banned right after the release. Quote me on that.

[igri_is_a_bk]

He won't provide you an answer to hate. If you're casting DR, and they have hate, and they let it resolve/not fizzle, something is wrong with them. He's the most nut-busting enabler I've ever seen though. He's more than [2x] Sphinx of Lost Truths in one card, that's scary.

Check out the text on Flayer:

Whenever Flayer of the Hatebound or another creature enters the battlefield from your graveyard, that creature deals damage equal to its power to target creature or player.

So if we have Flayer in play before you bring back the Demon, he pings them for 7 lifelink'd damage. It'll largely be irrelevant actually, since you'd just bring back GGT in that scenario and kill them. Although, if you don't have enough creatures or the Troll in the yard, that's an excellent way to avoid getting burned out against RUG or Burn and still mill your deck.

Going Demon before Flayer is also just as good, cuz then Flayer is going to be a guaranteed kill. That's obviously much better than Sphinx + FKZ, which usually needed the bird first.

[Final Fortune]

Guys, guys... You're really getting a little too excited about Mr Griselbrand.


This guy is just as much a win more card as Sphinx, except the Sphinx actually does the same thing without costing you any life points. If you dredge three more times with Sphinx, you are going to find another CT and DR anyway, so you really dredge the same amount.

Not to speak of the fact that Griselbrand only dredges like 4-5 times for 7 life max, because your deck will be gone by then.

Griselbrand is entirely useless against hate. This argument is pretty ridiculous... If you're able to DR your opponent obviously didn't have any hate, so it's once again very unnecessary.



This card is 100% unnecessary in Dredge. I mean, of course people will see results with it if everyone started running it right now, because you can basically win tournaments with Vizzerdrix as your target (which again shows how irrelevant DR targets are in general). But in fact this card does not improve this deck by any means and it will definitely not be banned right after the release. Quote me on that.

Obviously it's "just another Dread Return target," but even in that context it's exciting.

[jares]

Wow that new demon will be my main dredge return target now.

If i need to draw an answer to hate, I can just draw 7 instead of dredging.

This card is broken in dredge.

I don't think that you'll be able to Dredge Return anything.

Also, I agree with Izor here - if you were able to bring Griselbrand into play, you probably don't need your anti-hate anyway (except maybe in the far-off change that you're against Ensnaring Bridge and the like).

I wouldn't say that Griselbrand is broken - I would say that, at the very least, it's very interesting.

Cheers,
jares

[joemauer]

Griselbrand is kind of win more. Sphinx of the Lost Truths always got a sufficient amount of cards in my graveyard to win with FKZ. Rare occasions I would have to sac him to cabal therapy and dread return him again.

I don't think the draw seven is biggest allure of him, but the fact he is 7/7 flier with life link bad ass is what makes him special. He is kind of like the Fonzie from Happy Days, fixing jukeboxes and girls drooling over him.

[Gui]

Guys, guys... You're really getting a little too excited about Mr Griselbrand.


This guy is just as much a win more card as Sphinx, except the Sphinx actually does the same thing without costing you any life points. If you dredge three more times with Sphinx, you are going to find another CT and DR anyway, so you really dredge the same amount.

Not to speak of the fact that Griselbrand only dredges like 4-5 times for 7 life max, because your deck will be gone by then.

Griselbrand is entirely useless against hate. This argument is pretty ridiculous... If you're able to DR your opponent obviously didn't have any hate, so it's once again very unnecessary.



This card is 100% unnecessary in Dredge. I mean, of course people will see results with it if everyone started running it right now, because you can basically win tournaments with Vizzerdrix as your target (which again shows how irrelevant DR targets are in general). But in fact this card does not improve this deck by any means and it will definitely not be banned right after the release. Quote me on that.

With this I agree, but I'm not talking about how much this deck will evolve because of the DR target, but rather, how much the guy can make other DR target options to be subpar. The guy is pretty much a win button, better than most options that are used in the same way. But maybe the deck doesn't even need DR targets, to begin with.

[Digital Devil]

The draw 7 is indeed win-more, but the thing that amazed me was the resemblance to Iona, Sphinx and Angel of Despair, all in one card. I never played Cephalid Sage nor Sphinx, but playing Griselbrand gives me a free slot as I can play both creatures at the same time. I can screw my opponent with the other three Therapies, while setting up for the alpha strike. Ok, it eats Swords to Plowshares, but with my whole deck in my graveyard I can just DR a huge GGT or trigger a bunch of Ichorids, and even a topdecked Wrath of God can't deal with the 3/1s. Your opponent has a Peacekeeper? Just dredge until you find that Darkblast, return it to your hand, and if you don't have a rainbow land to cast it you might even get the chance to draw one. Same with Ensnaring Bridge etc. Rhox War Monk is considered a good anti-burn card? This one is bigger, and it flies, too. So it's basically RWM + Iona (to a certain degree) + Angel of Despair + Sphinx that gives our opponent a 3-turn clock and it's also synergistic with our secondary winning condition? Not to mention it doesn't depend on Bridge from Below and can be brought into play as soon as DR conditions are met.

[Michael Keller]

The draw 7 is indeed win-more, but the thing that amazed me was the resemblance to Iona, Sphinx and Angel of Despair, all in one card. I never played Cephalid Sage nor Sphinx, but playing Griselbrand gives me a free slot as I can play both creatures at the same time. I can screw my opponent with the other three Therapies, while setting up for the alpha strike. Ok, it eats Swords to Plowshares, but with my whole deck in my graveyard I can just DR a huge GGT or trigger a bunch of Ichorids, and even a topdecked Wrath of God can't deal with the 3/1s. Your opponent has a Peacekeeper? Just dredge until you find that Darkblast, return it to your hand, and if you don't have a rainbow land to cast it you might even get the chance to draw one. Same with Ensnaring Bridge etc. Rhox War Monk is considered a good anti-burn card? This one is bigger, and it flies, too. So it's basically RWM + Iona (to a certain degree) + Angel of Despair + Sphinx that gives our opponent a 3-turn clock and it's also synergistic with our secondary winning condition? Not to mention it doesn't depend on Bridge from Below and can be brought into play as soon as DR conditions are met.

^ .

[Mindlash]

The draw 7 is indeed win-more, but the thing that amazed me was the resemblance to Iona, Sphinx and Angel of Despair, all in one card. I never played Cephalid Sage nor Sphinx, but playing Griselbrand gives me a free slot as I can play both creatures at the same time. I can screw my opponent with the other three Therapies, while setting up for the alpha strike. Ok, it eats Swords to Plowshares, but with my whole deck in my graveyard I can just DR a huge GGT or trigger a bunch of Ichorids, and even a topdecked Wrath of God can't deal with the 3/1s. Your opponent has a Peacekeeper? Just dredge until you find that Darkblast, return it to your hand, and if you don't have a rainbow land to cast it you might even get the chance to draw one. Same with Ensnaring Bridge etc. Rhox War Monk is considered a good anti-burn card? This one is bigger, and it flies, too. So it's basically RWM + Iona (to a certain degree) + Angel of Despair + Sphinx that gives our opponent a 3-turn clock and it's also synergistic with our secondary winning condition? Not to mention it doesn't depend on Bridge from Below and can be brought into play as soon as DR conditions are met.

I agree with you in almost every way.

But from the Games I played, I have to say: Sphinx or Titan dredged (nearly) the rest of my deck to the grave most of the time the moment they hit the table.

I played Titan Maindeck after Lootings became legal. Titan was Game Over for my Opponents everytime it hits the table. You just flipped the Deck with his help, raped your Opp's hand and sent your Zombies to lunch the turn after.

I tested Flayer after Andos win for a long time and it was the same most of the time but 1 turn faster. Flayer on table was GG for my Opp's in the turn I returned him or the turn after. But I nearly never had to pass after the Devil arrives on the battlefield.

Sphinx was used by me as a SB card against Combo. Flips the Deck to find the Devil who ends the game.

Now for Griselbrand: I like the card pretty much, but I fail to see, how he is THAT much better as a DR-Target. It just wins the Game by hitting the table. A resolved DR pretty much is GG despite the creature. There are some Utilitycreatures like Angel, Iona, Elesh, Terastodon and some straight Game-Winners. This one is the latter.

I will get one and test it nontheless. But I just don't see his superiority to other choices :-/ He will just be the last card my Opp's see, like many DR-Target before...

[badjuju]

I agree with you in almost every way.

But from the Games I played, I have to say: Sphinx or Titan dredged (nearly) the rest of my deck to the grave most of the time the moment they hit the table.

I played Titan Maindeck after Lootings became legal. Titan was Game Over for my Opponents everytime it hits the table. You just flipped the Deck with his help, raped your Opp's hand and sent your Zombies to lunch the turn after.

I tested Flayer after Andos win for a long time and it was the same most of the time but 1 turn faster. Flayer on table was GG for my Opp's in the turn I returned him or the turn after. But I nearly never had to pass after the Devil arrives on the battlefield.

Sphinx was used by me as a SB card against Combo. Flips the Deck to find the Devil who ends the game.

Now for Griselbrand: I like the card pretty much, but I fail to see, how he is THAT much better as a DR-Target. It just wins the Game by hitting the table. A resolved DR pretty much is GG despite the creature. There are some Utilitycreatures like Angel, Iona, Elesh, Terastodon and some straight Game-Winners. This one is the latter.

I will get one and test it nontheless. But I just don't see his superiority to other choices :-/ He will just be the last card my Opp's see, like many DR-Target before...

There are sticky games that don't always fall into place like you're describing above. In those games, you often have poor dredges, or your bridges get removed somehow. In such a scenario, other dredge targets are much worse than Griselbrand. By himself he can help you stabilize, help you dredge more (or draw into answers), and ultimately win the game as a 7/7 flier. I think people are misunderstanding why he's impressive. It's not because he blows the other choices out of the water - it's because he does all of these other well-rounded things that the other MD DR targets don't. Now, I haven't played with Griselbrand yet, and I can't say for sure that he's straight up superior, but he's looking pretty decent on paper.

[jares]

There are sticky games that don't always fall into place like you're describing above. In those games, you often have poor dredges, or your bridges get removed somehow. In such a scenario, other dredge targets are much worse than Griselbrand. By himself he can help you stabilize, help you dredge more (or draw into answers), and ultimately win the game as a 7/7 flier. I think people are misunderstanding why he's impressive. It's not because he blows the other choices out of the water - it's because he does all of these other well-rounded things that the other MD DR targets don't. Now, I haven't played with Griselbrand yet, and I can't say for sure that he's straight up superior, but he's looking pretty decent on paper.

In agreement to your statements, I would like to quote myself.

I prefer to look at Griselband in the simplest way possible: he's a creature that can be an imposing presence in the board while also being able to further our dredging capability. I don't believe that any of our more popular DR targets can be attributed to both capabilities. In fact, if you look at it (not to overdo the hype or anything), Griselband could be the new FKZ+Sphinx by himself!

Looking forward to more previews.

Cheers,
jares

[K1w1]

Hmmm..



He should give other creatures haste in addition to the other ability.

[jares]

Hmmm..



He should give other creatures haste in addition to the other ability.

If only we could be that lucky...

In other not-so-important news, Temporal Mastery is fast becoming the latest craze of the new set. I expect this new card to shape the landscape of the meta game for a few months, much like how Mental Misstep did, and then get banned because of the abuse it will get alongside Brainstorm (much like how Mental Misstep also got banned). During this time period, the Hybrid Dredge builds will likely be in fashion again, and I expect Griselbrand to be featured in those builds. I might just be reading too much into it though.

Cheers,
jares

[Que]

Craterhoof Behemoth 5ggg
Creature - Beast Mythic Rare
Haste
When Craterhoof Behemoth enters the battlefield, creatures you control gain trample and get +X/+X until end of turn, where X is the number of creatures you control.

hah here is your new FKZ. ;p

EDIT: Scratch that. lol shit doesn't give your dudes haste. IT only has haste. bleh..

[jares]

hah here is your new FKZ. ;p

EDIT: Scratch that. lol shit doesn't give your dudes haste. IT only has haste. bleh..

Yeah, I re-read the whole text looking for the "your creatures have Haste", but the +X/+X was all I got. At least it also gives Trample

Better luck for us next time.

Cheers,
jares

[HokusSchmokus]

If only we could be that lucky...

In other not-so-important news, Temporal Mastery is fast becoming the latest craze of the new set. I expect this new card to shape the landscape of the meta game for a few months, much like how Mental Misstep did, and then get banned because of the abuse it will get alongside Brainstorm (much like how Mental Misstep also got banned). During this time period, the Hybrid Dredge builds will likely be in fashion again, and I expect Griselbrand to be featured in those builds. I might just be reading too much into it though.

Cheers,
jares

I don't think we will see the new time walk outside of UR Delver. I would consider it barely even playable. Everybody's just being chicken little.

[jares]

I don't think we will see the new time walk outside of UR Delver. I would consider it barely even playable. Everybody's just being chicken little.

I see a lot of people scampering to get hold of it, though, so it'll probably be used in more than just U/R Delver (and it now costs $40 a pop even before it's legal, so they might as well play it to get their money's worth ).

I hope you're right.

Cheers,
jares

[Gui]

I find the fact that 7/7 flying lifelink demands 3 regular bolt spells to be killed and will almost certainly give you life pretty sexy against U/R or UGr, what do you guys think? It's not as good against but isn't as fast as anyways...

[HokusSchmokus]

I see a lot of people scampering to get hold of it, though, so it'll probably be used in more than just U/R Delver (and it now costs $40 a pop even before it's legal, so they might as well play it to get their money's worth ).

I hope you're right.

Cheers,
jares

Oh, I hope everybody will play it. It is just such a bad card most of the times imo.


@Gui

I think so too. I also seem to change my opinion about this guy like every 5 minutes:D
But I can definately see it being very good in a RUG/UR Delver meta.