Avacyn Restored Card Discussion [SIMMERING POT OF FECAL MATTER]

[CorpT]

Every few months new cards come out that haven't been thoroughly tested and explored by big name writers, and I'm reminded of how fundamentally terrible most people are at this game.

Probability of this card ever being banned in Legacy: 0.001%

Probability that it will be the last straw to push Brainstorm and/or Sensei's Divining Top into the realm of bannings: 1%

Probably that nothing will happen and the card will see little to no play in a few months: ~99%

Also the next person to suggest the card in a deck that cares about either storm count or active High Tides gets free punches.

No offense, but you thought Batterskull was Legacy unplayable. Look how that turned out.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

The Irony is, Flash was "fixed" for weeks and people didn't notice, and when they did there still wasn't as much of a banning shitstorm as there is for this card.

The shitstorm over Flash was much larger, and also based on not only real testing results from a lot of top Legacy players, but results from smaller tournaments in the couple weeks before the GP.

I can't say that I know for certain the power level of this card yet, but when half the people talking about how busted it is are talking about comboing it with High Tide or storm combo, or alternately saying Gristlebrand is going to be so good in aggro decks with Lotus Petal, I feel pretty confident not shitting my pants over the threat.

[lavafrogg]

Don't these miracle cards add too much randomness to formats they are in? A format like standard with minimal library manipulation can develop into "who had a miracle at the right time". No player likes losing to the randomness of the game as it exists now, bad draws/mana screw, and consistency is a key aspect of most decks to beat.

I just don't see how a mechanic can be good when you are making chalice at 1 good again(counter library manipulation), predict a bomb(?), and cards that you never want to see in your opening hand.

These are obviously unplayable with dark confidant or snapcaster mage. Overall, i think they are interesting but unplayable.

[lavafrogg]

No offense, but you thought Batterskull was Legacy unplayable. Look how that turned out.

As the format is turning batterskull is becoming borderline legacy unplayable. It has too much reliance on SFM staying alive and without mental misstep that becomes a much more daunting task. It gets its 1 of spot in UW stone blade lists but only as a late game finisher(which should arguably be a planeswalker) with jitte acting as a much better card when your creatures are under duress.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

No offense, but you thought Batterskull was Legacy unplayable. Look how that turned out.

At the time people were shitting themselves and saying SFM-Batterskull was the new Tinker and the best threat in the format. The only person still saying that that I know of is Mike Flores, which kind of speaks to itself. In fact the decks that ran SFM at the time have mostly dropped Batterskull; it's pretty much just playing the role of Exalted Angel in old style UW decks.

Not to say that I didn't underestimate the card, because I did, but I think my estimate was a lot closer than a lot of people in that thread that were convinced that CawBlade was going to conquer Legacy straight off from Standard.

If you want a better example I'd look to Jace and planeswalkers generally, which I underestimated for a long time.

OTOH I also called Extirpate and Hunted Horror being crap, and Mental Misstep and Jitte being busted.

It's possible I'm wrong, but I can't think of a case where people freaked out about how a new card was going to break Legacy and I called against it and was wrong. Batterskull's a solid feature in the meta (I've even played it myself at this point), but it has its own niche and isn't close to threatening the stability of the format. Same to Jace; it's a powerful card, but you don't see people stuffing it into every blue deck that could possibly run it anymore, and it's often right not to.

It's just kind of fundamentally harder than people think to break Legacy; powerful plays alone don't do it. There's lots of powerful plays in Legacy, and a lot of powerful cards that see no play at all. The most broken cards in Legacy really don't win on raw power but on convenience, which is what made Mental Misstep so obviously nuts. This card? Not very convenient. So I'm doubting it breaking the format anymore than Batterskull did.

[CorpT]

As the format is turning batterskull is becoming borderline legacy unplayable. It has too much reliance on SFM staying alive and without mental misstep that becomes a much more daunting task. It gets its 1 of spot in UW stone blade lists but only as a late game finisher(which should arguably be a planeswalker) with jitte acting as a much better card when your creatures are under duress.

There were more or equal number of Batterskulls in the GP:Indy Top 8 than:
Hymn to Tourach
Sword of Feast and Famine
Sword of Fire and Ice
Counterspell
Thoughtseize
Crucible
Gaddock Teeg

[DragoFireheart]

Probability that it will be the last straw to push Brainstorm and/or Sensei's Divining Top into the realm of bannings: 1%

Weren't you advocating for Brainstorm to be banned or to at least consider banning it?

[CorpT]

At the time people were shitting themselves and saying SFM-Batterskull was the new Tinker and the best threat in the format. The only person still saying that that I know of is Mike Flores, which kind of speaks to itself. In fact the decks that ran SFM at the time have mostly dropped Batterskull; it's pretty much just playing the role of Exalted Angel in old style UW decks.

They certainly were. It's proven to be a solid card though.

Not to say that I didn't underestimate the card, because I did, but I think my estimate was a lot closer than a lot of people in that thread that were convinced that CawBlade was going to conquer Legacy straight off from Standard.

Probably true. UW Stoneblade did dominate for a time, but it was solved.

It's possible I'm wrong, but I can't think of a case where people freaked out about how a new card was going to break Legacy and I called against it and was wrong. Batterskull's a solid feature in the meta (I've even played it myself at this point), but it has its own niche and isn't close to threatening the stability of the format. Same to Jace; it's a powerful card, but you don't see people stuffing it into every blue deck that could possibly run it anymore, and it's often right not to.

Completely agree. People are freaking out now. I doubt this will destroy legacy, but the card certainly looks like it will be very powerful. I don't think most people are going to play it correctly at first, but it will probably find a home.

The most broken cards in Legacy really don't win on raw power but on convenience, which is what made Mental Misstep so obviously nuts. This card? Not very convenient. So I'm doubting it breaking the format anymore than Batterskull did.

Agreed.

[Sims]

The shitstorm over Flash was much larger, and also based on not only real testing results from a lot of top Legacy players, but results from smaller tournaments in the couple weeks before the GP.

I can't say that I know for certain the power level of this card yet, but when half the people talking about how busted it is are talking about comboing it with High Tide or storm combo, or alternately saying Gristlebrand is going to be so good in aggro decks with Lotus Petal, I feel pretty confident not shitting my pants over the threat.

I could have sworn the outcry over Flash when it first went public was smaller than this within the first 24 hours. However, I could be quite wrong. Some knew it was busted, some claimed it was just another combo. Point is neither here nor there, as it's water under the bridge at this point.

I do agree with the rest of the post, however. I really don't think this card is anything worth freaking out over. I've been proven wrong before though.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Weren't you advocating for Brainstorm to be banned or to at least consider banning it?

Yes. Based on years and years of compiled data showing its dominance in the format.

[Vacrix]

Yes. Based on years and years of compiled data showing its dominance in the format.

Yes but the format is bound to have a 'best staple'. It would be something else if not Brainstorm. Likely LED.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Yes but the format is bound to have a 'best staple'. It would be something else if not Brainstorm. Likely LED.

Irregardless, the point is that it was based on something vastly more solid than frantic speculation.

[Vacrix]

Indeed.


I wonder if TM can be used in a Doomsday pile.

[ivanpei]

Sneak show is tier 1 now and will be a dominant deck with the new demon. The synergy of the deck suddenly clicked with griselbrand. Proggy used to suck with sneak attack. Seething song sucks with show and tell. Now gristleband is good with both sneak and show and tell ala emrakul. So good in fact that you can also play through the breach. Think. About It, now you have 8 all purpose monsters and can play 10-12 enablers. You can even cut intuition because all your components sync up now. I'm calling it now, sneak show just got a huge consistency upgrade and will be a even bigger dtb.

[keys]

Wasting Brainstorms to set up Temporal Mastery seems a lot worse than people are claiming. Using Personal Tutor is considerably worse. Time Walk does not win the game by itself, folks. There are so many more powerful effects in Legacy, this is just laughable. Using it just as a tempo boost is stone cold retarded since you waste tempo setting it up.

I imagine there will be some tier 2 combo decks that might manage to abuse it, but it is way too conditional to simply add as a 4-of to most of the DTB.

[DragoFireheart]

Yes. Based on years and years of compiled data showing its dominance in the format.

So is Wizards wrong in not banning it?

[Greenpoe]

People thought Misstep was busted, but many august posters made the same mistake as R&D and assumed that it would be good for non-blue decks and bad for blue decks ("it gives non-blue decks something they don't have" basically). It's possible that people are missing a way in which this card will be broken right now, though it seems less likely.

Oh yeah, everyone thought Jace, TMS would suck, too. People said it would maybe see play in Landstill, but before the release, many thought 1UU Jace would still be better due to his cost of 3, dismissing Jace 2.0 as too expensive. (Granted this was in the time of Mystical Tutor where losing the game on turn 2 or 3 was much more common, but still).

[Vacrix]

Using it just as a tempo boost is stone cold retarded since you waste tempo setting it up.

Faith in humanity restored.

[DragoFireheart]

Indeed.


I wonder if TM can be used in a Doomsday pile.

Laboratory Maniac
Doomsday
Temporal Mastery
Other Stuff

?

Dunno, just a thought.

[majikal]

Laboratory Maniac
Doomsday
Temporal Mastery
Other Stuff

?

Dunno, just a thought.

I mentioned this pages ago. Seems pretty solid.