[Deck] Dredge

[Michael Keller]

For those interested, it appears as though Damon Whitby (Parcher) has won the NELC event at Jupiter Games playing LED Dredge.

[badjuju]

For those interested, Damon Whitby (Parcher) won the NELC event at Jupiter Games. I was unable to attend.

List?

[Michael Keller]

List?

That's all Jupiter. I'm not sure I just turned it on and saw it.

I'm also attending a big event in Baltimore tomorrow. I'll be sure to write up a report for you guys.

[HokusSchmokus]

Hypothetical question time: With a generally overall solid list and sideboard, a working knowledge of how to mulligan, a little luck and some good draws, do you think this deck is near unbeatable?

Without question. As it has been shown several times before, there is a perfect 75 for every meta, if you find it with dredge you are only.beatable by lady luck

[Mojeh]

Thank you guys for the feedback.
Well, actually it does make sense DR #3 and some other target, but do you think it's worth bringing them against Elves?
I mean, in this matchup they can come with some sort of hate (Cage), and I don't want to dilute my deck bringing 7 cards from the side board. So, I would just side in more DR and Iona/Hypnotist against Storm.

[GoldenCid]

So, I would just side in more DR and Iona/Hypnotist against Storm.

It's a good start.

On the other hand, why the hell one would want to run less than 4 ichorid? It's give us creatures for DR and CT...i know that sometime one want to see a dredger or a moeba instead of ichorid but it's so good...

[Mojeh]

@Goldencid: Yeah, Ichorid is really good, I used to run the full set main deck. The thing is, in this metagame I described, I believe the speed of 2nd DR is better than try to grind my opponent with Ichorids. I even thought about placing a DR target in my 60.

[GoldenCid]

@Goldencid: Yeah, Ichorid is really good, I used to run the full set main deck. The thing is, in this metagame I described, I believe the speed of 2nd DR is better than try to grind my opponent with Ichorids. I even thought about placing a DR target in my 60.

But a do run a second DR target. In fact, FKZ, Woodfall primus and ETW are my DR targets...

[Mojeh]

But a do run a second DR target. In fact, FKZ, Woodfall primus and ETW are my DR targets...

Yeah, but I guess we don't have enough slots to play 4 Ichorid, 2 DR and a target MD.
I really don't want to cut any dredgers or lands.

[badjuju]

People are beginning to shave Ichorids because the drawing power of LED + Looting often renders the Ichorids useless. I'm not saying the Ichorids are unimportant, they're actually extremely important, but the DR-heavy lists eschew running more than 2 because they don't really come into effect till games 2 and 3. And even in those games, looting decks have been banking on just going for raw speed game 3 sometimes.

On another note, I've been playing Adria's quadlazer + 1 DR list recently. I actually do miss having a DR target MD. Have my hands been more consistent? Probably, but it's hard to tell. I actually think LED mulligans just as well as LEDless, because if mull into a 5 card hand with LED, you're still good to go. LED is the most broken enabler in the deck, and I am always giddy to have it in my hand. I might move back to 2DR + 1 enabler target (Witness/Sun Ttan/Griselbrand/Sphinx). I find that I mainly just want to flip my deck G1 so that I can at least triple Therapy my opponent into oblivion. I really, really wish I had 14 lands MD along with 4 Therapy MD. There's really just not enough room :(

[Mindlash]

People are beginning to shave Ichorids because the drawing power of LED + Looting often renders the Ichorids useless. I'm not saying the Ichorids are unimportant, they're actually extremely important, but the DR-heavy lists eschew running more than 2 because they don't really come into effect till games 2 and 3. And even in those games, looting decks have been banking on just going for raw speed game 3 sometimes.

On another note, I've been playing Adria's quadlazer + 1 DR list recently. I actually do miss having a DR target MD. Have my hands been more consistent? Probably, but it's hard to tell. I actually think LED mulligans just as well as LEDless, because if mull into a 5 card hand with LED, you're still good to go. LED is the most broken enabler in the deck, and I am always giddy to have it in my hand. I might move back to 2DR + 1 enabler target (Witness/Sun Ttan/Griselbrand/Sphinx). I find that I mainly just want to flip my deck G1 so that I can at least triple Therapy my opponent into oblivion. I really, really wish I had 14 lands MD along with 4 Therapy MD. There's really just not enough room :(

I am going back and forth between Quadlaser and DR Targets. Just cannot decide which list to play. I like Quadlaser alot, but I am also missing the DR Targets from time to time.

Played a small tournament yesterday with a DR-List and half of my wins were due to my DR Target (this time Flayer). I might have won from this position with the Quadlaser-list because of the multiple Cabals that came hand in hand with the Deckflip and a bunch of zombies. But there are some matches I just want to win right of the bat, which is impossible with Quadlaser (although 2-3 resolved Cabals, 1-2 Bridges and 2-3 Ichorids in the graveyard equal a win most of the time even without DR+Target).

[Tammit67]

Gravetroll is a great DR target, and the only real one I have preboard. Still running 2 DR main though, since getting Iona or what have you is often key after board.

[badjuju]

I am going back and forth between Quadlaser and DR Targets. Just cannot decide which list to play. I like Quadlaser alot, but I am also missing the DR Targets from time to time.

Played a small tournament yesterday with a DR-List and half of my wins were due to my DR Target (this time Flayer). I might have won from this position with the Quadlaser-list because of the multiple Cabals that came hand in hand with the Deckflip and a bunch of zombies. But there are some matches I just want to win right of the bat, which is impossible with Quadlaser (although 2-3 resolved Cabals, 1-2 Bridges and 2-3 Ichorids in the graveyard equal a win most of the time even without DR+Target).

I've been going back and forth between a list that's similar to Hollywood's and Adria's quadlazer. I personally think that this deck DOES need to run Dread Return, even if it's a 1-of. No other card in the archetype can create so much instantaneous pressure. The reason why I like an enabler over Flayer is two-fold:

1. 3DR vs 2DR: freeing up one slot may not be THAT big of a deal in the long run, but it is to me. This allows me to run the 3rd Ichorid, which is instrumental in grindy games. I could probably get away with 2, but between having an extra Therapy, land, or Ichorid, I chose Ichorid.

2. 3 Therapies is OK G1: an enabler allows you to dig real deep, and you'll virtually hit all 3 of your therapies. If you don't, you'll at least hit two. With a Flayer list, you either have the Flayer kill or you don't. Not taking anything away from Flayer, just saying that I'd rather be able to dump my whole deck more consistently and reach my Therapies while not running a third DR. It's preference.

Lastly, quadlazer in its purest form runs no DRs. I think this is a mistake in the general metagame right now. There are plenty of matchups that you can just destroy by flipping your deck the first turn with an enabler, or killing them outright with Flayer/FKZ. Some decks opt to run both enabler and kill. By having 2+ DRs MD, you also boost the consistency of reanimating your two board all-stars: Iona and Elesh Norn. For these reasons, I'm stick with a 2 DR package for now a la Hollywood.

Next up is the board. From what I see, Tormod's Crypt and Surgical Extraction are the current most common hate cards across all archetypes.

• People have been forgoing adding extra lands in their boards. I feel like I really want to have at least one more in there (to be @ 14 post-board). Necessary?
  
• Is it necessary to diversify your angles of attack by adding Bloodghast / Nether Shadow / Gravecrawler against Snapcaster / Extraction decks?
  
• What's better against Reanimator: Faerie Macabre or Coffin Purge?
  
• How many Ancient Grudges is the right number?

[K1w1]

Reporting time.

Played:

Maindeck:

4x Golgari Grave-Troll
4x Stinkweed Imp
3x Golgari Thug
3x Ichorid
4x Narcomoeba
4x Cabal Therapy
4x Bridge from Below
3x Putrid Imp
4x Lion's Eye Diamond
4x Careful Study
4x Faithless Looting
3x Breakthrough
4x Gemstone Mine
4x Cephalid Coliseum
4x City of Brass
3x Dread Return
1x Flayer of the Hatebound


Sideboard:

4x Leyline of the Void
4x Chain of Vapor
1x Ancient Grudge
1x Ray of Revelation
3x Nether Shadow
1x Iona, Shield of Emeria
1x Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite


Round 1 against Maverick /r

G1: Just win with Breakthrough + LED + Looting
G2: He has an early Ooze and i can't handle it.
G3: This was funny. I'm on the play and start with looting. Throw two dredgers in my graveyard and found with a troll this: 2x Moeba, 2x Therapy, 1 Bridge, +1.
therapied away an Ooze and two Knights. He played Dryad Arbor and Jitte. I dredged and dredged and he decided to attack with an equipped Arbor and i'm so lucky and have a Chain of Vapor to bounce the Jitte and therapy the jitte. Hit two of them !

2:1 (1:0)

Round 2 against NicFit

G1: I start with LED + breakthrough + looting. After the first dredge, he conceded.
G2: He has a Leyline of the Void and i only have one Ray of Revelation to handle this. I lost, because he also had Engineered Explosives + Ooze ( wtf )
G3: I boarded Chains against the Leylines, but didn't find one. This was a bit unlucky. I played therapy and said Veteran Explorer. I hit. He has 2x Therapy and a Birds of Paradise in his hand. I have Putrid Imp and Ray of Revelation. But i only have one land. Topdecked a Looting and found therapy + land. Too bad, because i couldn't therapy his therapies to save my ray of revelation.

1:2 (1:1)

Round 3 against NicFit...

G1: After losing my three bridges, due to flashback therapy with dryad arbor, i had enough ichorids to win the game + Flayer. He had 5 lands in his hand + Grave Titan.
G2: Again Leyline + Ooze + Jace.
G3: I had a nice start again and win, due to Chain of Vapor the explorer. He was at 10 life and had a arbor + explorer. I had 5 tokens + one ichorid in the grave. So i think this was the best choice.

2:1 (2:1)

Round 4 against Maverick ( cmon... )
G1: Turn 2 kill
G2: Turn 2 kill

2:0 (3:1)

Round 5 against Reanimator ( was paired down to one who had 7 points )

G1: I win the game, because he forgot which deck i play (we know each other ). So he kept a bad hand and i win with therapies.
G2: I have Chain of Vapor, but he countered it. ( Elesh Norn wins )
G3: I have Leyline of the Void and start with a non-lander and win due to LED + looting in my hand and the right therapy : Show and Tell!

2:1 (4:1)

Round 6 against Esper Stonblade

G1: I play LED and he countered it with Spell Pierce ( was on the play ), i play looting and found what i need afterwards.
G2: I boarded the Nether Shadows, because this was the only game i played against Surgical Extraction. I boarded out one of three Ichorids and i had to laugh after seeing, that he extracted the Ichorid in my grave. I dredged into Moeba, Moeba, Shadow, Bridge, Dread Return. GG, because i flashbacked the DR into flayer into 9 dmg. He was at 3 life and i thought a bit. I have one Shadow who would come back next turn, so i decided to therapy myself. Two trolls entering the grave into three dmg due to flayer xD

2:0 ( 5:1 )

Went 2. out of 38 and won a Scrubland <3

But seriously.. 2 Maverick, 2 NicFit, 1 Reanimator?? -.-

If you have any questions, just ask.

K1w1

[badjuju]

snip

Nice finish :D

Digging your list, especially since you managed to fit in 3 Ichorids and 4 Therapy MB haha. Has land count ever been a problem for you? Also, how has Nether Shadow been for you in the Surgical Extraction matchups? (I know you only used it once in the tourney, but how is it in testing?)

[Gui]

http://jupitergamesonline.com/2012/4...8-legacy-decks

[badjuju]

http://jupitergamesonline.com/2012/4...8-legacy-decks

Cool list. Again, props for running 2 DR and 4 Therapies main :P A lot of Parcher's deck choices make sense, including the 10 rainbow lands. 2 DR MD still allows you to make sure that your post-board reanimation targets is more consistent.

[jares]

I actually think LED mulligans just as well as LEDless, because if mull into a 5 card hand with LED, you're still good to go.

As much as Dredge is one of the best (if not the best) in absorbing the drawback of having to mulligan, I believe that having to mulligan is, by itself, an effect of inconsistency.

As much as Dredge is also one of the decks with a very minimal dependency on land, the majority of the non-land cards that we want to see in our opening hand are still dependent on us having at least one land. Having said that, it's important to note that, if our LEDs are taking the place of our Gold Lands, then it will be evident in the figures that additional inconsistencies in our mulligans will be observable. Of course, these figures do not take in-game inconsistencies into consideration (e.g. bricking on chain-dredges, not getting a Dread Return when you already have your DR target, etc.), as these inconsistencies have their own set of behaviors and dependencies that have to be placed into the equation.

I hope that helps.

Kind Regards,
jares

[264505]

Dredge is on camera over at scg right now.

[NecroYawgmoth]

...and he plays badly.

Seriously, how is it possible that all the SCG T8 Dredgers are so terrible.