chandra phoenix is a bad creature,comparing phoenyx to sulfuric vortex is bad , sulfuric is an enchantment and they are really hard to remove , compared to creatures, that are easily exiled by the premier removal spell :sword to plowshares, so the phoenix is never coming back again because it will removed, also it doesnt prevent life gain , thats the real power of sulfuric vortex , preventing opposing jittes and batterskull is absolutely powerful...
Also, Ooze is the new Goyf, and is especially potent against Burn because of Marauders and Hellspark, combined with life gain.
Most people blindly suggest new cards for decks. True contributors also suggest what to remove. It's not about what's good, but rather what's better than the current selections.
I wasn't discounting the Vortexs anti-healing effect. That's honestly the only advantage it has over the birds. In some matchups it's game breaking, but others it's either only as good as the bird or worse.Originally Posted by RogueBuild
You only need to cast the bird once. The vortex is still vulnerable to counters/removal. Once a vortex is countered or destroyed we can't get it back. The bird is only vulnerable to Stp and can be recast otherwise.
Meanwhile, Vortex makes our aggro or combo matchups harder. The bird is better to have main decked, while the vortex is better in the side.
If you are running into so many decks that contain large amounts of life gain, you may want to consider not running burn in your meta.
Vortex in balanced metas belongs in the side. Phoenix belongs nowhere near the 75.
Most people blindly suggest new cards for decks. True contributors also suggest what to remove. It's not about what's good, but rather what's better than the current selections.
Explain.
Maybe because STP is the most common creature removal spell, Enchantments are not as easy to get rid off and Vortex prevents lifegain - the biggest issue of this deck, alongside Leyline.
Sulfuric Vortex offers so much more forthan Chandra's Phoenix does.
Unfortunately, it will be foolish for us to rely on Miracles to happen all the time, at EXACTLY the right time.
Thunderous Wrath might merit some consideration as a one-of in the deck, simply because drawing into it at any time when you have mana is certainly a good thing; the same cannot be said for Reforge the Soul.
Regards,
jares
Last edited by jares; 04-16-2012 at 03:06 AM.
Let me try and make a direct comparison between Chandra's Phoenix and Sulfuric Vortex, awarding points to either card depending on whichever has the edge for that specific point:
- Chandra's Phoenix has evasion, but is unable to guarantee 2 damage, and will require a combat phase to be able to possibly deal damage. Sulfuric Vortex can ensure that damage will be dealt because it's effect is triggered by a phase that is built into the game, with the exception of a rare occurrence of a Stifle or Trickbind being played. Edge: Sulfuric Vortex.
- Chandra's Phoenix is unable to prevent life-gain. Sulfuric Vortex prevents life-gain for as long as it is in play. Edge: Sulfuric Vortex.
- Kindly note that the current meta is littered by life-gain effects, not because the game plan of the current decks is to gain life, but because the current staples in Legacy have these abilities somewhat like bonus effects (e.g. Umezawa's Jitte, Scavenging Ooze, Batterskull, etc.). I find it unacceptable for us to say that we should consider not playing Burn because our opponents come prepared for us - I believe that the proper response for any deck is to say that we should also come prepared for them!
- Chandra's Phoenix is much more vulnerable to removal spells when compared to Sulfuric Vortex because Creature removal is much more common than Enchantment removal. Edge: Sulfuric Vortex.
- Chandra's Phoenix edges Sulfuric Vortex out in the event that these cards are indeed removed from play because it's able to "revive" itself. Edge: Chandra's Phoenix.
- Chandra's Phoenix does not deal damage to its owner, while Sulfuric Vortex deals 2 damage to its owner regularly. Edge: Chandra's Phoenix.
- Chandra's Phoenix can be used defensively as a blocker, while Sulfuric Vortex does not have any defensive options (unless you consider the prevention of life gain as "defensive"). Edge: Chandra's Phoenix.
- Because the damage from Sulfuric Vortex is much more difficult to prevent when compared to Chandra's Phoenix, it can generally be considered to be a better top-deck. Edge: Sulfuric Vortex.
- Final Score: Chandra's Phoenix = 3; Sulfuric Vortex = 4.
- Winner: Sulfuric Vortex.
- Note that this scoring system does not take into consideration that these points should be weighted based on the importance of each point. For example, the ability to prevent damage and avoid the most common removal spells would certainly be more valuable than the ability to block (for Burn, at least).
Do let us know if any additional points should be added to the list.
I hope that helps.
Kind Regards,
jares
"Or worse"? You've admitted that Vortex does have game-breaking upsides, so to warrant Phoenix over Vortex you need to prove that Vortex is significantly worse. Exactly what matchups make Vortex so bad that you prefer Phoenix?
Would it be control decks, since Chandra's Phoenix gets around counterspells? But Stoneblade has streams of spirits to chump, Plowshares and lifegain that Vortex would've prevented. Also, spending a three mana a second time after it's countered to get in two damage isn't exactly a threat to them. Maybe BUG Control, then? I doubt that you have Phoenix in there for a rare deck like BUG.
Against RUG Tempo, they'll have enough counterspells and bolts saved up for your burn or Phoenix itself after your early beatdown. This means you can't recur Phoenix every turn for lack of mana. If they've stalled you out enough that you have 5+ mana to get a burn spell past a counter every turn, they'll be too far ahead by then. You can argue that this situation will never happen and we should have them dead early. If this is true, then any discussion of Vortex vs. Phoenix is irrelevant because you don't play either until late-game. By the way, it seems difficult to keep Phoenix going after they Bolt it and set a CounterTop lock.
Against combo decks with disruption, Phoenix is marginally better because she gets around their counterspells if they have any. However, the choice between the two never has time to become relevant because of their turn-three fatties, Tendrils, what have you.
Maverick: 4 Swords to Plowshares and Scavenging Ooze are there to ruin Phoenix. Flyers + Mother of Runes too if they really need to escape 2 damage a turn. I'll grant that they also have Pridemages for Vortex, but neither should be boarded in here anyway.
To restate my point, in no major matchups will Vortex be so much worse that you'll be wishing you had Chandra's Phoenix.
You actually need to recast the bird each time you return it from your hand. I've shown that Vortex's extra vulnerability is worth it when needed, and that the Phoenix's rebirth isn't worth it.
Against combo, both are equally bad. Against aggro, why would you board in either Phoenix or Vortex?
Wat. I was wondering earlier why you would board in Chandra's Phoenix or Sulfuric Vortex against aggro or combo, not really realizing you intended Phoenix as a maindeck card. So you're cutting one of: 1-2cc creatures, 1-2cc burn, Fireblast for Chandra's Phoenix? To make your matchup better against a control deck with no swords to plowshares or blockers?
If you are running into so many decks that cannot Plow or Path to Exile your Phoenix or block it, I think Zoo is a better option than anything. Against decks that gain life, we have fast enough burn to overwhelm them and Smash to Smithereens and Sulfuric Vortex in the sideboard to seal the deal.
It is hard, but do you think Reforge the soul could have a place into the deck?
If it is on your initial hand, is a wasted slot, we all agree. Drawing it on turn 1-2 is the same. This leaves us on a tough position, we should draw it on turns 3/4/5 (if we are on turn 6, probably we're going to lose anywayEven though we have magma jet to look for it...
Thunderous wrath, vexing devil, and now this; all the 3 so close...
I really feel that only the Devil belongs in straight burn. The miracles are simply not viable without some "brainstormy" effects.It is hard, but do you think Reforge the soul could have a place into the deck?
If it is on your initial hand, is a wasted slot, we all agree. Drawing it on turn 1-2 is the same. This leaves us on a tough position, we should draw it on turns 3/4/5 (if we are on turn 6, probably we're going to lose anyway
I´m a Derek, and Derek's don't run...
It theoretically could, but my gut feeling is that it doesn't belong here. Your goal with this deck is to do the absolute maximum amount of damage possible with your opening 7 and the 3-4 cards you draw after it possible. This card directly opposes that paradigm; if it's in your opening grip it's absolutely dead, putting you one card further away from your goal. That one card makes a huge difference in this deck.
Without Brainstorm to get rid of it, it's basically a mulligan any time you draw it in your opening 7. Personally, I'd rather just have more burn in that slot.
I agree. The Miracle effect, by design, induces inconsistencies in the deck, and so far, only Brainstorm is able to address these inconsistencies.
Thunderous Wrath could still possibly be considered simply because you would want to play the effect of the spell at any point in time. Unfortunately, Reforge the Soul isn't the type of spell that you would easily want to play at any point in the game - and it may even do you more harm than good.
Regards,
jares
Hi guys, been reading for some time now but this is my first post here.
I've been playing burn lately (a normal version of the list that made those tops) and a friend of mine just sent me a message talking about Devil and Wrath.
My first thought was that devil was great to substitute FoD or something and Wrath would be hard to play without brainstorm.
So Brainstorm would be good with fetches, fetches would be good with Lavamancer, then vexling etc and started thinking on a built for UR Burn that i think would kick ass. This is what i come up so far:
Creatures [16]
4 Goblin Guide
4 Vexing Devil
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Snapcaster Mage
Instants/Sorceries [24]
2 Daze
4 Force of Will
3 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Thunderous Wrath
2 Price of Progress
Lands [18]
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Arid Mesa
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Island
2 Mountain
4 Volcanic Island
Sideboard
3 Faerie Macabre
4 Red Elemental Blast
2 Smash to Smithereens
1 Shattering Spree
2 Sulfuric Vortex
3 Mindbreak Trap
Sideboard obv arguable depending on meta etc but i think mb as a lot of synergy with very good cards and was able to take a lot of the weaker ones from the builts i saw.
Let me know what you guys think.
Hi There,
Your list is looking a lot like the U/R Delver lists that are being discussed in the thread below (without the Delver
You might benefit more by discussing your build in that thread, as the considerations that are being made there are very similar to the ones that you've noted.
Kind Regards,
jares
Oh, thank you, you're right! I didn't knew that thread exist and lol at my built not having the main card of their deck! I was like, can't be that powerful that i thought it wouldn't be worse it and i just realised it transforms into a 3/2 with flying, i had missed the flying part since it's not written on the card! So yeah, my list should definitely have Delve, maybe instead of Snapcaster, won't even post it there cause they already have very similar ones. I'm a bit disappointed that i'm not the genius that saw it coming but at the same time really happy cause it kind of confirms that it will kick ass.Hi There,
Your list is looking a lot like the U/R Delver lists that are being discussed in the thread below (without the Delver
You might benefit more by discussing your build in that thread, as the considerations that are being made there are very similar to the ones that you've noted.
Kind Regards,
jares
edit: on another note, i think the UR Delver version is now stronger than the version being discussed on this thread because wrath and devil took most of their inconsistencies and brought many advantages and imho that doesn't happen in such a bigger scale on this built.
Glad to have helped. Good luck with building your deck.
Cheers,
jares
I think Burn has to face a new problem card:
Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
I testet vs this card recendly and it performs incredebly strong vs Burn.
At the moment there are alot DTB that are hard matchups for Burn.
Dredge / GW Maverick / TES / Sneakshow /
and RUG is always close
With Thalia this popular it got a little bit harder to win with Burn.
I think this Deck needs a change with Vexing Devil beeing legal.
I want my Burn Deck to be much less agressive and much more like a controle Deck.
I want the Board to look that much in my favor, that every Devil i play cant ever be a 4/3 creature becaus my opp. has to use his removal for other creatures and cant handle additional aggression.
I have some idears in mind but no time to test it yet. If you have some suggestions how this could work please share them with me.
regards
Vexing Devil and Miracle Wheel suck. Risky Bet is stupid good.
You're welcome.
Don't you hate Legacy?
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