All B/R update speculation.

[Tacosnape]

The following could also be said of Terminus:

1. It's completely dead against certain decks.

2. Like every single other Miracle card except for Temporal Mastery (And Thunderous Wrath possibly in certain decks), if you happen to topdeck it outside of your manipulation, there are times when you aren't actually going to want to play it.

Not that I don't think Terminus is amazing. It is. But UWx Control's been needing an answer like this. Over the last couple blocks, Hexproof and uncounterability have gotten out of control. I don't even think Terminus is enough to save this archetype from the savage facemelting that is Cavern of Souls, which will make decks like Goblins and MUD a nightmare. Terminus is what's needed for it to stay on par for the course.

[DragoFireheart]

I don't even think Terminus is enough to save this archetype from the savage facemelting that is Cavern of Souls, which will make decks like Goblins and MUD a nightmare. Terminus is what's needed for it to stay on par for the course.

Those decks weren't doing well before. If anything, Cavern of Souls is what is needed to stop blue decks from melting their faces.

And by blue I mean Stoneblade, Sneak&Show, and Canadian Thresh / RUG Tempo / Tempo Thresh.

[matunos]

I don't even think Terminus is enough to save this archetype from the savage facemelting that is Cavern of Souls, which will make decks like Goblins and MUD a nightmare. Terminus is what's needed for it to stay on par for the course.

Why would MUD want Cavern of Souls? Each of their creatures are of a different type, and they want mana acceleration in the form of Ancient Tomb and City of Traitors (and Metalworker, once he's in play).

True, tapping for colorless is more useful for MUD, but is the small advantage of getting one un-Forceable(*) creature worth dropping some of the lands they already play?

Again, let me point out that the current dominant form of Stoneblade has weakened its counter suite for discard.

[DragoFireheart]

Again, let me point out that the current dominant form of Stoneblade has weakened its counter suite for discard.

I think this was done more in response to Storm/Sneak&Show decks and not so much that blue is "weak".

Discard is generally better against Storm: proactively getting rid of key-combo pieces will slow them down more rather than waiting for them to go off.

As for sneak&show, most counterspells are bad against them. Spell Snare doesn't hit much, Counterspell is a turn too slow, and Spell Pierce doesn't work as they can get enough mana to play around it.

Stoneblade splashes black for Lingering souls anyways.

[(nameless one)]

Why would MUD want Cavern of Souls? Each of their creatures are of a different type, and they want mana acceleration in the form of Ancient Tomb and City of Traitors (and Metalworker, once he's in play).

I've always wanted to play Chalice and Goblin Welder together on the same build. With Caverb of Souls, you can actually put a Chalice on one without worrying about your Welder.

So you get dual protection from Chalice and Welder (since Swords to Plowshares/Path to Exile) is a beating.

Also, against blue decks, you can actually go ramp>ramp>threat, without worrying about it getting FoWed. (because seriously, why would you FoW the ramp if you know you can 2 for one your opponent).

[Gheizen64]

Why would MUD want Cavern of Souls? Each of their creatures are of a different type, and they want mana acceleration in the form of Ancient Tomb and City of Traitors (and Metalworker, once he's in play).

True, tapping for colorless is more useful for MUD, but is the small advantage of getting one un-Forceable(*) creature worth dropping some of the lands they already play?

Again, let me point out that the current dominant form of Stoneblade has weakened its counter suite for discard.

Because gettings bombs countered is a big deal for MUD. It also allow you to go for CotV AND Welder more consistently, even if i still don't know how consistently so.

[Vacrix]

Its worth mentioning that Maverick still has Teeg and GSZ to stop the opponents from sweeping with Terminus, and GSZ to recover. In that sense, Deed is a bit better at board sweeping in that you can drop it through Teeg at a convenient 3cc. It will be good in UW Control but I have a feeling that BUG Control will retain its own niche in the heavy control archetype.

[DragoFireheart]

Its worth mentioning that Maverick still has Teeg and GSZ to stop the opponents from sweeping with Terminus, and GSZ to recover. In that sense, Deed is a bit better at board sweeping in that you can drop it through Teeg at a convenient 3cc. It will be good in UW Control but I have a feeling that BUG Control will retain its own niche in the heavy control archetype.

The thing is Terminus is a hell of a lot cheaper than Deed.

Deed is 3 mana investment. You need to speend at least another mana to hit CMC1 creatures. To hit most things in Maverick (KotR), you need to spend 6 mana total (3 for casting, 3 for sac). That's 6 there.

Meanwhile, Terminus costs 6 without setup and 1 with some setup. Teeg can stop it, but that still doesn't change the fact of how powerful Terminus is. Terminus also hits ANY that Sneak-n-Show can throw at you. Even if they try to pull a fast one, it's possible for you to cast Terminus on their turn to stop an Emrukul if somehow you fail to counter their Sneak/Show. Deed can't do much about Sneak-n-Show decks.

I'm not sure why you brought up BUG control. Does BUG control have a better Maverick matchup or is it a better anti-control deck/preys on UW control decks?

[feline]

Deed does have X in it's CMC, so it has to be out before the teeg comes out. >^,^<

[mrjumbo03]

Deed does have X in it's CMC, so it has to be out before the teeg comes out >^,^<

Deed doesn't have X in its CMC.

[Vacrix]

The thing is Terminus is a hell of a lot cheaper than Deed.

Deed is 3 mana investment. You need to speend at least another mana to hit CMC1 creatures. To hit most things in Maverick (KotR), you need to spend 6 mana total (3 for casting, 3 for sac). That's 6 there.

Meanwhile, Terminus costs 6 without setup and 1 with some setup. Teeg can stop it, but that still doesn't change the fact of how powerful Terminus is. Terminus also hits ANY that Sneak-n-Show can throw at you. Even if they try to pull a fast one, it's possible for you to cast Terminus on their turn to stop an Emrukul if somehow you fail to counter their Sneak/Show. Deed can't do much about Sneak-n-Show decks.

I'm not sure why you brought up BUG control. Does BUG control have a better Maverick matchup or is it a better anti-control deck/preys on UW control decks?

It is a heavy investment at 3 against aggressive decks, but its advantage over Terminus is that it can kill stuff like Equipment, something UW Control has trouble answering without countermagic.

You don't have to pay 6. You can afford to wait until turn 4 to blow it if you can land it turn 3. Also, you have other stuff to slow them down like Innocent Blood and a good countermagic suite that often includes the traditional Counterspell and Spell Snare.

You might beable to Terminus in response to Sneak Attack. I admit its better there, however, you can still draw 14 cards with Grizzlebrand in response to Terminus and thats big trouble for a slow control deck. Terminus won't always get there in that matchup.

BUG control is fantastic against control decks, and I'd say it has a good Maverick matchup.

[Pippin]

As per latest big tournament results... seems like B/R is fine and no bans are needed.

Maybe it would be good for those that are amongst the frontrunners for random banning to actually stop next time and decide to hold their wisdom for themselves. Last few weeks were seriously chaotic due to massive overreactions.

[Reagens]

After some intensive testing the past few days with the cards of the new set I think show and tell might be on the list soon.
Both sneak/show and reanimator benefit greatly from this card and are pushing out control as a feasible strategy in legacy. Control (landstill is a prime example) has always had difficulty with fast combo and both sneak and show and reanimator give you little to no time for interaction.
I also base this on the fact that the most powerful creature you could show and tell in quite a few time ago was a 10/10 protection from everything and that doesn't even make the cut now. Griselbrand (especially lifelink) make does decks go over the top power level wise and if not it's just a matter of time that it will get out of hand (if not this set it will be the next). Show&Tell is clearly the enabler for both decks (reanimator needs it do dodge gy hate post-board and would become vulnerable to hate pb without it) and would probably get the axe if Wizards decides action is warranted.

[dontbiteitholmes]

After some intensive testing the past few days with the cards of the new set I think show and tell might be on the list soon.
Both sneak/show and reanimator benefit greatly from this card and are pushing out control as a feasible strategy in legacy. Control (landstill is a prime example) has always had difficulty with fast combo and both sneak and show and reanimator give you little to no time for interaction.
I also base this on the fact that the most powerful creature you could show and tell in quite a few time ago was a 10/10 protection from everything and that doesn't even make the cut now. Griselbrand (especially lifelink) make does decks go over the top power level wise and if not it's just a matter of time that it will get out of hand (if not this set it will be the next). Show&Tell is clearly the enabler for both decks (reanimator needs it do dodge gy hate post-board and would become vulnerable to hate pb without it) and would probably get the axe if Wizards decides action is warranted.

Yeah it's almost like WotC is trying to break Show and Tell.

First it was 10/10 untouchable, what could be better? Then it was 15/15 flying annihilator untargetable by spells what could be better? Now it's 7/7 YawgBargain with Lifelink, what could be better?

We'll have to wait and see though, Emrakul couldn't put Show&Tell over the top, so the bar is set pretty damn high.

[lordofthepit]

After some intensive testing the past few days with the cards of the new set I think show and tell might be on the list soon.
Both sneak/show and reanimator benefit greatly from this card and are pushing out control as a feasible strategy in legacy. Control (landstill is a prime example) has always had difficulty with fast combo and both sneak and show and reanimator give you little to no time for interaction.
I also base this on the fact that the most powerful creature you could show and tell in quite a few time ago was a 10/10 protection from everything and that doesn't even make the cut now. Griselbrand (especially lifelink) make does decks go over the top power level wise and if not it's just a matter of time that it will get out of hand (if not this set it will be the next). Show&Tell is clearly the enabler for both decks (reanimator needs it do dodge gy hate post-board and would become vulnerable to hate pb without it) and would probably get the axe if Wizards decides action is warranted.

Show and Tell is pretty broken, but if it hasn't been banned already, why now? Reanimator is a dead deck (at least for now). Hive Mind and Dream Halls don't see much play (zero placements in the SCGRI Top 32). Sneak Attack is a DTB, but it's probably the weakest of the DTBs (although Griselbrand shoudl improve it a lot); even then, it only placed 1 deck in the Top 32 of SCGRI.

Of course, these data are not completely representative of the overall metagame, but Show and Tell has never been a weaker strategy than it is right now. Too many decks are currently running Spell Pierce, in addition to all the other normal hate.

[Reagens]

Show and Tell is pretty broken, but if it hasn't been banned already, why now? Reanimator is a dead deck (at least for now). Hive Mind and Dream Halls don't see much play (zero placements in the SCGRI Top 32). Sneak Attack is a DTB, but it's probably the weakest of the DTBs (although Griselbrand shoudl improve it a lot); even then, it only placed 1 deck in the Top 32 of SCGRI.

Of course, these data are not completely representative of the overall metagame, but Show and Tell has never been a weaker strategy than it is right now. Too many decks are currently running Spell Pierce, in addition to all the other normal hate.

There are no current data available since in my opinion Griselbrand will be the creature that puts both decks over the top.
Spell pierce is barely an option since 5 mana turn 3 is easily possible (petals were inlcuded in our test list). And take into account that griselbrand doesn't need an attack fase to be effective because of it's draw effect. It also refills sneak attacks hand (which was a consistency issue) and can be used as a chump blocker (block, draw seven or gain 7 life anyone??) while reanimate needs to expend a lot of life to do something over the course of a game and that is of course solved with a 7/7 lifelink flyer.

[lordofthepit]

There are no current data available since in my opinion Griselbrand will be the creature that puts both decks over the top.
Spell pierce is barely an option since 5 mana turn 3 is easily possible (petals were inlcuded in our test list). And take into account that griselbrand doesn't need an attack fase to be effective because of it's draw effect. It also refills sneak attacks hand (which was a consistency issue) and can be used as a chump blocker (block, draw seven or gain 7 life anyone??) while reanimate needs to expend a lot of life to do something over the course of a game and that is of course solved with a 7/7 lifelink flyer.

That's a fair opinion, but we should wait for the fallout before banning.

Not sure Reanimator benefits too much from Griselbrand:
- Against RUG, you have trouble reanimating your creatures, but most creatures you reanimate (besides Jin) probably win you the game.
- Against Stoneblade, Griselbrand is probably as good as it gets, so big addition here.
- Against Maverick, Griselbrand is much better than Jin, but worse than Sphinx (because of Karakas), so it depends on what you cut. However, Jin also pitches to Force of Will, which is really important, since you can't beat Ooze, Knight, or an early GSZ for either.

Sneak Attack gets ridiculous with Griselbrand, of course.

[dragonwisdom]

unbanning survival.

If they banned the ooze combo. Is survival vengevine really that broken?

[Leftconsin]

I'm still solidly of the belief that Survival can come off in about 2014 and be safe. Survival for the health of Legacy should have gone away, but it shouldn't have been permanent given that Legacy's power level is still rising. Unfortunately, bannings are really hard to undo, and most cards that come off only come off when they are completely impotent.

[majikal]

Is survival vengevine really that broken?

Yes. It is. And this is coming from someone who played the fuck out of it the entire time it was legal.

Survival can come off with Vengevine still legal when every color has an amazing card that is good on its own but is also, incidentally, savage graveyard hate.