Just 2 small thoughts:
1) Lili is great and fits perfectly in rock decks, I think we shouldn't care a lot about she make us losing something relevant. Most of the times her +1 takes a land, an useless late discard, a loam or nothing because we rapidly went to topdeck mode. And the chance we give our opponent a flashback card or a snapcaster target is small considering we still can edict him and compense it, we are not always facing an esper blade. Also, in case we give them that, it's still something considering they can just use it once (flashback).
2) Leyline of the void is a card with a lot of discussion. I personally don't like it, since it's true power is only realease against dredge. Reanimator decks can bounce it without any loses. Leyline seems to me a little too much since we can use other sb alternatives that can also be useful against other matches, like Extirpate, EE or Deed, and mainboard options like maelstrom pulse.
3) I prefer Tops rather than Libraries, because we can use it more times in single turn with fetch abilities in order to search for an specific card, also it cost 1 less, and give us the card we need at an instant speed, we don't like a lot to pay life, and we are not going to play more than 1 or 2 cards per turn, also deed always destroy libraries.
Frogg: I'm quite interested in your loam based rock deck (My friend is going to lend me 4 moxes tomorrow to test it). In theory it sounds good, but I'm concerned about their bad matches, and that it's more graveyard sensible. I'm guessing maybe your bad matches are different from the regular rock bad matches. They are more or less?. Loam based deck is a huge change from what are used to play rock decks, and it needs to be analized. Can you talk us more about Mana curve, mana stability, draws, etc. It would help a lot to understand it.
Originally Posted by damionblackgear
i didnt cut her, i was impressed by her abilities (first time playing it) so i think lily will have a 2 slot in my rock deck.
about leyline of the void; again reason being i used is to dodge dredge decks, against reanimator 2 diabolic edicts are side-in in my sb, i'd say that my current sb plan is not optimal so i dont push conversation to use it by us in any tournament it is my self preference.
this coming saturday we have a small legacy tourney after the prerelease i believe, i will change my sb line-up there.
Sheep:
Once again thank you for having interest in my decklist! You are correct in that the match-ups and thought processes are different that normal rock decks. For starters, you are very rarely in top deck mode, even when you are not cycling loams like crazy you either have a confidant on the board or a knight holding his own.
In that the deck plays different the cards do different things, for starters here is my current list:
Creatures: 15
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
3 Qasali Pridemage
Planeswalkers: 3
3 Liliana of the Veil
Spells: 18
4 Life from the Loam
4 Mox diamond
3 Thoughtseize
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Swords to plowshares
Land: 24
3 Windswept Heath
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Nantuko Monastery/Cabal Pit
1 Volrath's Stronghold
4 Wasteland
2 Tranquil Thicket
2 Barren Moor
Sideboard: 15
3 Ethersworn Canonist/Removal
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Terravore
Card Breakdown:
Life from the Loam: The reason the deck is build the way it is. Draw three for two mana is really good. Standstill was a good card for years and it had to be played on an empty board. Life will always get you three lands with those lands either doubling as spells(Cabal Pit, cycle lands, wasteland), creatures(stronghold, monastery) or just deck thinning and mana fixing. Once a Loam resolves you usually can take a breath in and relax that your mana is safe and sound. There will be times when you are kept off of two lands...these times suck, but are usually short lived.
Dark Confidant: You will lose very few games with a Loam rolling, you will lose slightly more when your back up plan is up and running, Dark Confidant is the Plan B and that says a lot about our plan a. He is the sandbagged card in your hand when you let them counter your goyf or knight to play Bob and watch their face drop. He just wins games and shout always be considered the best black creature, and arguably the best creature period.
Mox Diamond: These are what make the list different. With diamonds you are almost guaranteed to hit the colors that you need, when you need them, and loam ensures that you have no drawback. Play four because a mox with no drawback is dumb good. Can always be discarded but should usually be played when you can(mana screw sucks). Confidants/goyfs/loams or discard+cycle, cycle+swords are all good ways to start turn one.
Qasali Pridemage: When I took out vindicates I was worried about equipment running wild. Pridemage ensures that never happens. With SFM running rampant in the metagame, a maindeck answer to the equipment was a must. A reusable answer that happens to attack for three....priceless. He also kills opposing moxes, oblivion rings, leylines(game 2+3), animate dead, counterbalances, shackles and every artifact/enchantment saving humility. That card I lose to.
Tarmogoyf: The biggest problem with loam decks is the early game. For any deck that wants to end the game quick, Goyf is the last card they want played. Against Zoo, Burn, Combo or any fast deck...an early goyf is needed to either get the kill in time, or to hold off the onslaught until you can overwhelm them. He is a wall and should never be cut, as he is the best reason you win matches you shouldn't.
Thoughtseize/Inquisition: 1cc discard is needed to keep our opponents from overwhelming us before we are ready. We want to slow down the first few turns so they do not get out of hand, and proactive disruption allows us to take whatever cards we cannot deal with at the time....ie... creature when we are low on removal, removal when we are low on creatures!
Swords: Just....so....good....
Knight of the Reliquary: Used to be terravore and could easily be terravore. Both have their own pros and cons with knight being more resilient which is why he gets the nod at this time. I am trying to keep the tutor targets to a minimum to prevent drawing them naturally, knight usually acts like a planeswalker getting bigger and bigger while either waste-landing or doing something shady...and then he wins the game in 1-2 swings... must be rough.
Lands: The cycle lands are to pull real advantage from your loams, wastelands are amazing when you can reuse them, the stronghold is to get back and dredged/killed creatures and the last slot is for creature control. Nantuko Monastery has been holding the slot due to its ability to attack but reusable creature kill, Cabal Pit, has just snuck onto my radar. I think the 4/4 first striker is better, but flyers are a pain in the ass and they are always small(clique, delver, souls tokens) and weenies are running rampant(GW is a good deck ya know). The fourth wasteland comes and goes, it could easily turn into one or the other. A maze of ith could take the spot but it does not make mana or really do anything.... Karakas is only needed in legendary heavy metagame. I feel that neither of them are good enough.
Finally....
Liliana of the Veil:The MVP of the deck. With either a loam or a confidant, the +1 has no drawback for you. At her worst she edicts a creature and then draws some attackers, but at that point they could have just attacked you and finished the game. Their should never be enough creatures on the board that you cannot protect a Liliana, if there is you lost anyways. I really wish her ultimate ended the game but her first two abilities induce scoops when she is going. Post board she gets pernicious deed against swarm decks to ensure she can pick cards out of hands and creatures off of the board. Remember: you don't have to use her, if she has 2+ counters and you don't need the edict or the ultimate, you don't have to discard a card if you don't need to. She is the versatile card that vindicate was except she is reusable and has a use against combo(which is a big deal). She can also be played turn two off of a mox! p.s. when the board is clear Nantuko Monastery is her best friend, removal will be discarded before you animate and creatures will be edict'd away!
Sideboard: The board right now is holding its own...the deeds have to stay due to their interaction with Liliana. They could be another board sweeper if your meta calls for it.
Graveyard(dredge) gets surgical plus the GSZ package for Ooze and the bog.
Combo gets the most with Canonist plus GSZ for Teeg and Surgical if you feel like you need them. Loams and swords come out(easy call).
Incidental hate is the bog against knight decks, terravore against maverick or stoneblade. Surgical against stoneblade. The only card I don't like are the canonists in that they are so narrow(but needed against combo), when I am feeling brave, I play either chokes, path to exiles, or engineered explosives in the spot, depending on what I see. Zuran orb if I see burn btw, it plays around price and gains the most life for the least mana it is really hard for them to win with it on the board seeing how you can kill vortex(but have to dodge smash!)
The deck has different match=ups that traditional rock but the two are very similar. The way the main and the side work, the deck sideboards like a champion. If you don't need added speed or mana fixing, take out moxes, If you don't need a super late game, take out loams. Swords are dead in combo match-ups and come out whenever they need to.
The deck hates seeing fast swarm decks and would play infest in the board if shit got out of control with goblins/merfolk/random aggro. Against zoo all you can really do is hope you can discard away enough gas to lay down a bomb, wasteland is very effective against zoo though...especially if you have a tarmo wall up. EE is really good against zoo and is easier to cast though disruption/duress.
You want to see "fair" magic decks all day long. Any midrange aggro/control deck will be an easy matchup(sorry bant!). They can not deal with all of the ways that are being attacked and Liliana is better than Jace in this instance. Stoneblade is a fun matchup in that they should never have equipment online and all of your creatures are enormous compared to theirs. Super heavy swords hands are suck but that takes mana and you have wasteland to keep the dual count low.
Nic Fit is in the same category, you have swords/discard for their explorers wastes for their duals(they love mana). And huge beaters while they try to draw through it. If explorer goes off you get lands to fuel your loam engine and just outdraw whatever garbage they throw at you. Pridemage is huge in this matchup as well as monastery(recursion!)
If control is big in your meta, bring eternal witness in to show snapcaster mage how it is done!
That being said, decks that are not "fair" are not fun. Combo is just who gets the better draw. You have a fighting chance and are not dead by any means. With multiple hate options/angles if they don't win fast they most likely will not. Burn is about as bad of a matchup as you can get and requires specific hate cards....warmth is an option but is good against nothing else. I think orb is the best card to fight burn and zoo as best as possible(you just need enough time to stabilize).
Jace is a pain in the ass but you can draw more cards than him and can usually use the rest of the deck to keep him off of the board. He cannot bounce Liliana or Monastery, and you can use stronghold to draw creature every turn for the rest of the game.
Mana curve: The highest card in the deck cost three, so the curve is not very high. This means that with the right draws the deck can come out of the gate fast and win like it is its job. When the game goes long, life from the loam can use all of your land drops to ensure you never run out of gas. You play a lot of lands so you can draw and dredge a lot of cards. An ideal hand has a turn one mox to wasteland and discard the best card in their hand, turn two(or turn one goyf/bob...omg no removal...gg?) goyf or bob can get dumb fast when you can start cycling lands and dredging as well.
You want loam up ASAP so you can keep gas at all times but do not feel that you have to loam every turn. If you do not have the mana to loam and play business then just play business. Always try to keep a cycler in hand to "save" loam if need be, but if you have loamed 2-3 times let them have it the -1 CA is just insult to injury when you are +5-6 already!
An early knight or Liliana will steal the game, but you should always be playing like Liliana is the next card. If she gets on a board for a few turns the game is yours!
Finally, mana stability is not terrible but if you only draw cycle lands and no mox...you will be pissed. It happens every once in a while but mox helps to minimize the issue. Keeping hands with 2+ mana sources(2+loam) are ideal.
If you have any questions please let me know, thanks for reading!
"eggs... why'd it have to be eggs"
LavaFrogg: To clarify my point about Liliana, I was trying to make it clear that, while we can still benefit somewhat from her +1, it's card disadvantage unless you are discarding loam. Sure we can regain that loss via E Witness or Bob, but your still losing a card, and negating the usual advantage you would gain from them. Noxious Revival is even more card disadvantage, and I wouldn't run it personally. Stronghold and witness are the best options, and even though they are slow they do improve your late game quite well.
Either way, being aware of Snapcaster and souls is really the point, and Lily can still take over the game, card disadvantage or not. I'll be running 2 next weekend most likely.
On your entomb idea, it's a good one, and it's been done successfully before. Check out Jon agleys article about it here: http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/l...ianapolis.html
I think you would end up on this path if you are already running 4 Lily and 4 Loam and looking to add entombs, but it becomes a different animal at that point. More like Rock control. Ali Aintrazi did well with a similar list in January too. I was tempted to play it, looks like a blast!
That article is so cool! I would love to play a list like that but I just don't think it does anything. Which is the real problem with those tutor control decks(see anything by Hanni with intuition in it). I am just thinking an entomb or two to get a ravens crime or darkblast or worms harvest. It would also work in my list as a creature tutor with stronghold, or a land tutor with loam.
Still doesn't seem worth the slots, but could add utility(GSZ is most likely the better tutor:/) but it could work.... Maybe a GSZ entomb deck!! Lol, so bad I know. Better than that what about rebuilding cerebral assassin!! Man I'm dumb:p
"eggs... why'd it have to be eggs"
@ Nic Fit vs. Rock
The two decks are entirely different. They have discard as well, but they lose because they cast huge threats. Most of those things can also be Swords'd or countered, but it's just the amount of acceleration they have as well.
The two decks play very similarly. We both have Top, Pulse, GSZ, Oozes, threats, etc. The big thing here is multiple Deeds with the mana to use them that turn (usually). Eternal Witness is much better here because you have enough mana to get the card back, then play it in the same turn, negating their counterspells.
Overall, I don't think we're much worse off in a sense. Veteran Explorer against Esper lets them search for 2 basic lands and ramp into Jace - it's the same argument I use against Path to Exile vs. Esperblade, why ramp them into Jace?
--
Essentially, Nic Fit beats Maverick due to Deed, and with that, big beaters. Sun Titan Deeds every turn on up to 4 to take out anything they might have. Grave Titan is a house. Ooze is great, etc. The only thing we don't have out of that is usually the ability to Deed on the same turn. But, we also have access to other cards to clear the way until we can Deed in a single turn. ex. Virtue's Ruin.
Nic Fit beats RUG Delver? I haven't tried that matchup yet, but accelerating quickly into bombs, assuming your cards don't get countered, seems like a likely way to avoid Daze/Pierce and get there using long game advantage. Again, Deed is doing work here, but Stifle also does some work. If only Culling Sun cost 3, then we'd be in business. The key to beating RUG Delver is to overload them. They only have 12 creatures. Mucking up the board or out-removaling them is the way to go. Zoo has a great RUG Delver matchup, I wouldn't be surprised to see a small Zoo resurgence to combat Delver.
So, we keep coming back to Pernicious Deed is awesome when you can do it on the same turn, but this is really only necessary against Maverick due to the presence of Qasali Pridemage. Deed against Stoneblade can knock out some tokens, equipment, etc.
So, then, the question becomes "Why are we not playing Deed?" The answer? It costs 3 against RUG Delver, and they just Pierce/Daze you to death." Fair call. So, my immediate conclusion was to run Engineered Explosives to knock out tokens, and the most Nimble of Mongeese.
@ Lavafrogg's list
This is one of the few configurations using Mox Diamond I approve of. You actually have a way to get it back, and a way to abuse extra copies of Loam (Liliana). I'll have to sleeve this up and give it a shot.
@ My list at the moment
Was running some test games last night, and I seemed to be doing a bit awful against Esperblade. When it was getting to the late game, I was just getting out-attritioned and really just had nothing to deal with all their crap. One thing, however: EE was VERY good, as was Dread of Night. However, their postboard against us is incredible:
+1 Sword of Feast and Famine
+1 Wrath of God
+2 Perish
+1 Crucible of Worlds
+2 other good stuff
whereas with us, there's a huge predicament. Liliana isn't necessarily the greatest here, as getting swarmed by tokens sucks. Some lists aren't even running Force of Will (which is what I was testing aaginst), but the amount of hand disruption was awful. Cabal Therapy and Inquisitions really ripped apart my hand, and then all of my threats were dispatched with great...dispatch (guess the quote, win points).
Thrun isn't great at all here, unless you count on the fact all the tokens are gone, which you can't always do. The board gets gummed up with tokens and equipment, and them landing Jace is the worst. Bouncing your singleton Knight you manage to land through discard and counterspells, only to have it bounced just feels SO awful. Also, getting Wastelocked is awful. Didn't expect to see that one.
On a side note, the Maverick matchup is a joke. I beat them 8/8 times preboard, and the guy didn't want to do postboard due to demoralization. /High-five.
So far, my maindeck is as follows:
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Marsh Flats
1 Windswept Heath
3 Bayou
2 Scrubland
1 Savannah
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Plains
3 Wasteland
1 Maze of Ith
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Karakas
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Scavenging Ooze (I want 2 of these again, but don't know what to cut)
4 Dark Confidant
1 Qasali Pridemage
3 Thoughtseize
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Maelstorm Pulse --> Very good
1 Vindicate
2 EE
2 Top
2 Sylvan Library --> Very good
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 GSZ
--BOARD--
2 Pernicious Deed
1 virtue's Ruin
2 Dread of Night
2 Choke
2 Timely Reinforcements
2 Krosan Grip
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Surgical Extraction
Basically, I have Maverick hate down, but I need more RUG Delver/Esperblade hate. Grip isn't necessarily the best to bring in, as well, against Esper, since the whole question is, what do you take out?
I don't know, maybe I'm just ranting, but I'm just a tad unsure about that Esper matchup.
-Matt
So far, my board is as follows
Matt- I cannot tell you the value of recursion against esperblade. They cannot swords everything and anything that hits the graveyard should come back! Eternal witness is such a beating against them, and solid against maverick to reuse removal, as is volrath's stronghold. One of the reason I have success against them is that I play 3x pridemages and their artifact crap can not stay on the board, especially when they come back!
I am a real advocate in having the Stronghold to tutor for for late game purposes btw. Gas every turn for the rest of the game seems good to me.
I also bring in Terravore to trample over their board to kill jace/tokens/them/whatever. Kodama of the North Tree is a great 2-3 of if you really want to smash face, it just has limited uses in other match-ups:/.
Other than that: infest is a beating against them as is dark-blast from the board.
Finally EE is such a house right now, everything either cost 0 ,1 or 2 and 3 is as high as the curve goes(mostly).
I'm pretty sure with all of this gibberish you can decipher something to help you out. I would cut the karakas for Volrath's Stronghold and probably cut a top for either a witness or another pridemage. Witness is such a beating....
In the board you look like you have a plan, it just needs a little help:)
"eggs... why'd it have to be eggs"
Frogg: Loam Pox is not an easy deck to play, but I wouldn't say it "doesn't do anything". It's similar in my opinion to, say, BUG Control, only you have a tutor package to answer nearly everything in place of counterspells, backed up by a serious mana denial and discard engine. The reason I haven't built it (and probably won't) is that I think it takes a great deal of skill to pilot successfully, and it's the type of deck that needs to be updated frequently to stay on top of the metagame.
Anyway, if you add in Entombs, you certainly have plenty of options.
Matt: I'd cut a GSZ or a Goyf for the second Ooze if you want another. You have plenty of creatures, and 2 Zenith seems fine since you're only running QP and Ooze as tutor targets. If you make one of those cuts, you could add a Teeg to the board too.
Doesn't do anything in a sense of if it does not draw and keep loam it does nothing. In one of the games he did not draw a loam or a entomb and lost slowly and painfully. Graveyard hate exists, from extirpate to leyline, and unless I'm playing dredge I do not want my deck to be ground to a halt when hate is drawn.
If the BG loam doesn't win game one, it most likely loses the match, best case it draws.
All in all, I don't think it is strong enough to be playable even if the hate for it was not crippling.
"eggs... why'd it have to be eggs"
@sdematt:
I'm running a similar decklist, with a few changes.
-1 Pulse
-2 EE
-2 Libraries
-1 Maze
+2 Vindicate
+2 Lilis
1 Terravore
+2 Loam
I'm running a 61 card maindeck list.
I use top over library because I found myself using top more than once each turn with fecths, it lets me see more, it costs one G less and cannot be easily destroyed.
@Frogg: You surely talk a lot about your loam based deck and all the pros, but you don't feel that your opponent sideboard will crush your deck? Since everyone is using gravehate, and your deck is relying a lot on graveyard (knight, tarmo, loam, volrath) it seems a right played tormod, surgical or bog can desmantle your game plan really nicely removing a lot and slowing you a lot. You choose speed over stability, and maybe that's a late game problem (still drawing moxes and loams but really needing a threat), also not having any way of getting rid of a jace without attacking. Could you talk about the deck responding to opponent's sideboard? Also you didn't talk how to deal with your really bad matches or how many they are.
Matt, I see that you took out loam on your new build. If you want to cut a card for Ooze, I would recommend cutting either 1 SDT or Library.
Matt - Now that you've got 1 vindicate, what can I do to convince you that it's ok to have all Pulses? the LD argument doesn't work with just 1 and there are few and far between experiences where you'll end up down from the exchange.
Tinkering with some crafting theory. Here
Correction, I do have a Loam, I just always forget to add it.
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Marsh Flats
1 Windswept Heath
3 Bayou
2 Scrubland
1 Savannah
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Plains
3 Wasteland
1 Maze of Ith
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Karakas
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Scavenging Ooze (I want 2 of these again, but don't know what to cut)
4 Dark Confidant
1 Qasali Pridemage
3 Thoughtseize
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Maelstorm Pulse --> Very good
1 Vindicate
2 EE
2 Top
2 Sylvan Library --> Very good
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 GSZ
1 Life from the Loam
@ Sylvan Library
This is the card, hands down, that wins you many, many matches. Now, it is destroyed more easily than Top, but it stops the derdling. Top is fine because you see more cards, but you're not really DRAWING more cards. Sure, you draw that card, then you draw Top again. Sylvan allows you to see 3 deep and DRAW extra cards without having to draw the same card to replace it, like Top. They are two very, very different cards, and I've loved having two. Games are very different with or without an active Sylvan.
Also, beyond the initial casting investment, I'm not paying mana. That's also one of my "top" beefs with Top (pun intended)
@ 1 Vindicate
I always feel like Maze of Ith is going to screw me one day, I'm scared to cut it all back.
@ Terravore
I tried a 1-of Terravore, and he never seemed to get huge. Maybe I'm just so used to him being a 20/20 with Loam decks that 5/5-6/6 doesn't feel like enough to me.
@ Liliana
In my meta, I literally can't run that card. Rug is pretty heavy, and she just gets Bolted everytime I've tried her. I've been pretty demoralized with her, especially with all the flying things I can't block. Maybe I'll try her again someday, but so far, I don't think I can muster it.
@ Engineered Explosives
Sheep, if you haven't given it a try, do so. It's been VERY helpful in killing tokens and Mongeese.
@ Borealis
Did you get your username from HL2? I've always wanted to ask.
True, bringing Teeg back would be nice.
-Matt
@Matt: you say that you beat Maverick 8/8 pre-board then later say that your SB has Maverick hate covered. Did you mean Esper? I think that's where you probably need to focus.
True, but I don't want to leave anything to chance. As well, much of the hate cards overlap.
What are the best cards against Esper? So far, I've got Choke, Dread of Night, Terravore, Thrun (well, shroudiness, only if he had trample...), Krosan Grip. Anything else more threat-like we can think of? We're already a deck of answers bringing in more answers, I'm looking for more proactivity (Choke is good, Dread is good, etc.).
-Matt
Haha, no never played half life actually. Borealis means "north" or "arctic", and I have a minor infatuation with maps, compasses, and mountains (usually north of Boston). When not playing magic or working, I do a fair amount of climbing, skiing, and hiking, so the name seemed to fit both hobbies well. Also, have you seen the art on Jasmine Boreal? What a hottie...
Anyway, agree with most of your points above. 4 top effects seems like a lot since they are blanks after the first, but they are very important to the deck. I like the 2/1 split personally (1 library).
In other news, I'm back on the 3 moxen and 4 hymn plan. I figure my best bet is still going to be resource denial backed by the usual suspects. Turn 1 hymn or bob is nasty, and its good to still have the occasional unfair start. I like the other lists I'm seeing here, but I feel like I'll regret it if I don't run hymns.
Last edited by Borealis; 04-26-2012 at 04:45 AM.
Sheep: The bad match-ups are fast decks like burn and zoo. The best you can do is hope to out draw them and draw discard and removal to slow their roll. The ethersworn canonist slot is the random slot in my sideboard dedicated to either fast aggro or combo. With fast decks bringing in path to exile is a good call as you just need to 1 for 1 them until your late game cards get online. Against tempo/burn you need to establish your mana base and then not get burned out at the end. Zuran orb helps to buy you the extra turn to stabilize and win, it also helps to play around price of progress.
Hate against my list has to come from as many angles that it is attacked on. A timely perish or wrath will stop the creature assault but not Lilliana or Loam. Graveyard hate will stop Loams but not the creature assault, goyfs don't really care about my graveyard/knights can regrow, and with tormod's crypt do you take the loam or the lands.
In games two and three, I get to play a hate/antihate guessing game in if I leave in my loams or take them out. When you side into a traditional rock list nearly all graveyard hate is nullified, by strong board control elements and GSZ. The most effective hate is playing a combination of all hate. Graveyard and board control elements i.e. sweepers and crypts...would suck quite a bit but that doesn't stop us from controlling the board with a Lilliana or sand bagging a confidant.
The most effective way to beat the deck is to not get it started i.e. zoo, burn which are terrible match-ups.
p.s. pithing needle is house against esperblade....walkers, SFM, equipment
"eggs... why'd it have to be eggs"
So I'm back from the Mox tournament (I know, prerelease weekend legacy tournament? Couldn't be big). We ended up with just under 30 people in a out of the way store that's trying to get a bigger following (I'll be game for future events if it's worth the drive).
I ended up playing this list:
1 Birds of Paradise
4 Dark Confidant
3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Tarmogoyf
1 Qasali Pridemage
3 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Thoughtseize
3 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Sylvan Library
3 Mox Diamond
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Marsh Flats
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Horizon Canopy
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Karakas
3 Wasteland
1 Maze of Ith
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Swamp
Sideboard
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Eithersworn Cannonist
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
2 Choke
2 Timely Reinforcements
2 Dismember
1 Curse of Death's Hold
We went 4 rounds and then T8 (I know, short a round, didn't matter).
Round 1 on the Play Vs Solitaire (Enchantress).
I figure out what I'm up against and do my best to limit his resources but my opener is for an aggro or control deck, not Solitaire. I scoop when I'm looking at 2 Enchantress Effects, 2 Sterling Grove, and 1 Solitary Confinement. It's not worth making this deck show you a win-con. If you find a way to stop it, they'll have an answer. Better to just slow them and not let them get going.
Games 2 and 3 I drown out his hand and apply too much pressure too fast. Liliana is a house alongside Canonist but I never assembled. Bob's and Pridemages get there.
Round 2 on the Draw Vs Reanimator (Graveborn precon adjusted)
My opponent tells me he's playing a pre-con and also informs me that it's not burn... YAY. I completely forgot that reanimator was a pre-con though and end up looking at Jin on his turn 2. On my turn to I look at my Birds in play, the Bayou, my hand (Which has a land and a pulse). I realize that my opponent is Mono Black. I draw... Scavenging Ooze. I lose my hand (drawing Maze next turn) and go the Ooze/Jin mill Route. My opponent eventually hard casts a Platinum Angel on his last turn... I find a pridemage and kill it the next turn.
Game 2 isn't very close as I still have the Ooze and a Knight to boot.
Round 3 on the Draw vs Goblins (Mono Red)
My oponent leads of with Goblin Lackey. I play a bird to block which it does. I follow with bob who eats a Lightning Bolt (I wonder why he didn't BOLT THE BIRD!). In comes Goblin Warchief and Goblin Piledriver. Neither are very effective as I proceed to play Knight and other creatures. Eventually I grind him out with a Jitte.
Game 2 is similar but no kill from him and a Turn 1 Stoneforge from me. To be fair, my opponent saw all of 3 lands in both games... It wasn't a game, it was a slaughter.
Round 4, ID vs Stax.
Top 8, on the play Vs Canadian Thresh (Rug Tempo, Rug Delver)
It's a buddy, we decide to chop it any way it goes since there isn't very much prize support for the tournament.
He takes game 1 with burn and a ton of bodies.
Game 2 comes down to him getting greedy and trying to Submerge my Knight in response to me using it... It was my only forest.
Game 3 I naturally draw and waste him out of the game. Goyf finishes the rest. This is the only game I got to cast Timely, it was more for the sake of just getting the life (didn't need the bodies). It ended up getting Dazed so I guess that's good... I think. I'll give it a little longer, unless I figure out what I'm going to put in it's place.
Top 4 on the draw vs Hivemind
Another buddy but I've already chopped once so I don't want to keep killing the prize pool. We talk, he's convinced it's a bad matchup. After both keeping at 6, he plays fetch, pass. I play first turn Library which he brainstorms in response then Forces. He draws and I mention that it's not a bad matchup because I could lose right here. He passes. I play Lili and proceed to put him down to 1 card before he's able to do anything.
Game 2 we both go to 6 again. I lead with Mox and discard. I keep the Karakas in hand for show and tell but it never comes. He ends the game with 2 Emrakuls and a Blue pact in hand. I can pay for any pact via Birds and Mox + 3 lands.
Finals, Split vs Canadian Thresh (Rug Tempo, Rug Delver)
We opt to take the adjusted prize (Time Vault) and the dual (Underground Sea). One of my buddies (the one I chopped with) sells cards. Since he was in on the chop, he's selling them and we took value for them.
-----
On Timely, There wasn't really a chance to see exactly how it'd turn out. I brought it in against Goblins and Canadian Thresh. For the Thresh matchup, I just intended it to be a little extra life. The Bodies would've been useful against Gobo's.
On Curse, I never felt the need to play it. It was never sided in. I don't think that would've changed had it been Night of Souls' Betrayal. I think this slot will end up being something else (like Choke?)
Last edited by damionblackgear; 05-01-2012 at 09:07 AM. Reason: Cleaned up card tags
Tinkering with some crafting theory. Here
Just missed Top 8 in a battle for some duals down in the USA. I'll post a tournament report tomorrow, but the list felt super tight. SO tight.
-Matt
So, now for the epic tournament report that's epic. Hopefully...
Here's the list I played:
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Marsh Flats
1 Windswept Heath
3 Bayou
1 Savannah
2 Scrubland
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Plains
3 Wasteland
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
1 Qasali Pridemage
2 Scavenging Ooze
3 Thoughtseize
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Sylvan Library
3 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Life from the Loam
1 Garruk Relentless
--BOARD--
2 Choke
2 Timely Reinforcements
2 Dread of Night
1 Virtue's Ruin
2 Pernicious Deed
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Krosan Grip
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
Round 1: Adam with RUG Delver
I open hand of Bayou, Marsh Flats, Karakas, Thoughtseize, Top, Sylvan Library, Dark Confidant. It's a keep. I go first and see a Goyf, Bolt, Daze, Waste, Waste, Trop, Tarn. Frick. I go and take Goyf since I don't have removal for it, but then I get double Wastelanded. Luckily, I've fetched a basic, so I run out Confidant, then Sylvan to make sure it sticks.
He manages to drop Tarmogoyf and Delvers, but I've draw into removal like a champ. I drop Ooze and suck up some things, then stabilize at 6. Boom shaka laka.
Game 1: Win
Board out: 3 Maelstrom Pulse, 1 Garruk Relentless
Board in: 2 Choke, 2 Timely Reinforcements
In Game 2, I open a Thoughtseize and see Force, Force, waste, Goyf, Trop, Daze, Bolt. I obviously take Daze, but he draws Nimble Mongoose, then counters all of my relevant things.
Game 2: Loss
Game 3 comes up, I Thoughtseize, and see Goyf x3, Goose, Bolt, Trop, Tarn. What. The. Fuck. I have Swords in hand, but it won't be enough. I took Goose, but I should have taken Goyf for sure. It's off to the races, and he also gets 2 Delvers in there. We jockey back and forth, I've got a Sylvan active. The extra cards don't dig me into anything of value, and when I do hit a gamebreaking Ooze, he has Force of Will. He has lethal on board. Boo.
Game 3: Close loss.
0-1
Round 2: Thomas (ThomasDowd? here on the Source) with TES
Thomas seems to know me right away, and I tell him I'm not playing Thopters in casual conversation, so he knows I'm on Junk/Maverick. Well then. I knew he was on Storm since he sat 2 people down from my first round. Game 1, I go from 20 to 19, cracking a fetch and using Inquisition, seeing Lotus Petal x2, Cabal Ritual x2, LED, Ponder, Bloodstained Mire. I take LED, but taking Ponder wouldn't have been bad either I think. Anyway, he goes from 20-19-17-16-14-12-11-9-7-6-5 and kills me.
Game 1: Loss
Board in: 2 Krosan Grip, 3 Surgical Extraction.
Board out: 1 Garruk, 4 Swords to Plowshares
Game 2, I turn one GSZ into Dryad Arbor, and he goes into T2 Goblin tokens for 12 of them. I've already got a Confidant online, and I put out a Knight, Ooze, and Goyf. I end up not losing when I go to 18, take 10 block 2, then he swings in with 10 against my 3 blockers. He has it tied up, he thinks. Nope. Ooze sucks up 2 dudes and blocks one, Knight blocks one and tutors Maze for the one that would have been lethal. I scrape my way back and kill him while at 1 life.
Game 2: Win
Game 3 is a bit of a mess. He Probes me twice turn 1 goig to 16, then drops a fetch. I Thoughtseize, seeing Brainstorm, Duress, Petal, Cabal Ritual, Polluted Delta x2, and he used a Brainstorm before showing me his hand. I take Duress, since I have an Inquisition, but then Surgically Extract Brainstorm, causing him to shuffle away an LED and Infernal Tutor. Ouch. He sits there with nothing to do while I drop Confidant, and use discard every second turn or so. I drop Knight, and then it's over. I had extracted Burning Wish, Infernal Tutor, and Brainstorm by the end of the game. Sorry Thomas, I drew super crazy.
Game 3: Win
Record: 1-1
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