[Deck] Dredge

[Calado]

I can agree with your logic on ichorid, but you are looking at therapy the wrong way. It does EVERYTHING! Its a win con, an enabler, and disruption. This card is the best card in the deck if used properly and should be an auto 4 of. Usually, if you can land 2 therapies you almost can't lose.

I think that too, especially in LEDless where I get slow games often.
I love when the Therapy turn 2 grabs the counter, letting me to cast the draw spell and flashback Therapy right after. Or when they just don't have the counter and I can hit a strong card flashbacking it!

[Gui]

@Zebra:

Nice tournament and nice report, thanks for sharing.

I'm glad to see that LEDless still performs reasonably well. I've always claimed that the printing of Lootings doesn't invalidate LEDless Dredge, so I'm glad to see it doing work for you.

I agree with you and Gui that we should run at least some number of Tireless Tribes in LEdless Dredge, because as you said, having permanent discard outlets is LEDless' biggest selling point and it makes post board games a lot easier.


What list did you run exactly? in my own list I've cut down Dread Return to 1 copy in the main deck, so I have room for 15 Lands as well as the full set of Breakthrouhs and a 3/3 split of Faithless Looting and Tireless Tribes. 3 Ichorids is more than enough imho and with more permanent discard outlets I think one can cut the 12th Dredger as well.

Actually, Faithless Looting is more important than Breakthrough, but other than that, I could see myself playing your list as well. I don't agree that one can cut the 12th dredger, IMHO it's the highest impact card in the deck and one should always run 12 at least.

[jares]

I don't agree that one can cut the 12th dredger, IMHO it's the highest impact card in the deck and one should always run 12 at least.

I also consider the 12th Dredger to be a flex slot, but it's the last flex slot that I would ever use. In fact, I don't remember having used it at all!

Now that I think about it, if I can find a way to include the 13th Dredger, I would.

Cheers,
jares

[jares]

I'm glad to see that LEDless still performs reasonably well. I've always claimed that the printing of Lootings doesn't invalidate LEDless Dredge, so I'm glad to see it doing work for you.

I agree with you and Gui that we should run at least some number of Tireless Tribes in LEdless Dredge, because as you said, having permanent discard outlets is LEDless' biggest selling point and it makes post board games a lot easier.

I find it strange that I'm not missing the Tireless Tribes at all, especially given that my preferred LEDless configuration and play style is purposefully geared towards grinding games out (of course, the less grinding, the better).

I'll have to get reacquainted with my Tireless Tribes to revisit the testing that I did when Faithless Looting first came into the scene. I'm thinking that Tireless Tribe would at least be worth considering for some sideboard slots.

Cheers,
jares

[jares]

I love when the Therapy turn 2 grabs the counter, letting me to cast the draw spell and flashback Therapy right after. Or when they just don't have the counter and I can hit a strong card flashbacking it!

Hitting a blind Therapy has increasingly become my favorite play for this deck!

Cheers,
jares

[Viridia]

I don't think it is any better then Flamekin Zealot, if not worse, considering that FKZ also gives al your zombies +1/+1 which usually results in a lethal blow.

[ZebraSleeves]

@Izor

I believe I used the following list at the tourney:

4 Golgari thug
4 Stinkweed imp
4 golgari grave troll
4 narcomoeba
4 putrid imp
3 ichorid

4 Bridges
4 Careful Study
4 Breakthrough
4 Therapy
4 faithless looting
2 dread return
1 darkblast

4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Cephalid coliseum
2 Tarnished Citadels

SB

4 Leyline of the Void
1 Elesh Norn
1 Angel of Depair
3 Firestorm
4 Chain of Vapor
2 Ancient Grudge

Changes I would make to the maindeck for next time would be -4 Lootings, +4 Tireless Tribes. In the Sideboard I would probably do -2 Chain of Vapor, -2 Ancient Grudge, +4 Street Wraith. This probably seem like an unusual choice, but let me list the reasons I want to have access to the Wraiths:

-They can come in on the draw to make the DDD plan more viable, if need be.
-The instant speed allows for more flexibility in managing your graveyard. Additionally it allows you to save dredger from being extracted or (to a lesser extent) oozed.
-Good as Breakthrough replacements in Grindy games because that don't cause you to over-commit but still offer you some acceleration and they can be pitched to Ichorid.

[K1w1]

Hey,
short question to you...i'm at a tourney at sunday and i think i just play the Painter sideboard just for fun but there is one thing:
How the hell did Jason Bulkowski board out?
HOW?

K1w1

[Que]

Hey,
short question to you...i'm at a tourney at sunday and i think i just play the Painter sideboard just for fun but there is one thing:
How the hell did Jason Bulkowski board out?
HOW?

K1w1

- 4x Troll
- 1x FKZ
- 1x Sun Titan
- 3x Breaktrough
- 4x Narcomoeba
- 2x Bridge

Not really sure on the Bridges at as the last 2 slots. Anyway since you want to maximize the use of Unmask you also want to keep your black card count up! Thats the idea

[Anusien]

Yeah, not a big deal, sory for bothering you with that...

Anyways, I will use LEDless list too, I've been doing some testing (although less than I'd like to), and I believe we should go with at least 2 Tireless Tribes. I've cut 2 Breakthoughts and 2 Tireless instead of removing all the perma discard. I also believe one of the strengths of LEDless is facing hate, so my config try to abuse the perma discards by using some Grudges from sb for a eventual fight against tormods/relics @ g3. I'll see if this can get me somewhere.

I would rather have Tribe than Grudge against Crypt and Relic game 2/3.

[Gui]

I would rather have Tribe than Grudge against Crypt and Relic game 2/3.

Hmmm.... I have 4 PImps and 2 Tribes MD right now. You suggest I should have 2 Tribes and 2 Grudges instead of 4 Grudges from SB, or even a 1 Tirbe 3 Grudges, maybe?
Could you further explain?

[Koby]

Hmmm.... I have 4 PImps and 2 Tribes MD right now. You suggest I should have 2 Tribes and 2 Grudges instead of 4 Grudges from SB, or even a 1 Tirbe 3 Grudges, maybe?
Could you further explain?

Against Crypt/Relic you have to coax them to break it. Having a consistent discard outlet allows you to force them to pop it eventually.

[K1w1]

- 4x Troll
- 1x FKZ
- 1x Sun Titan
- 3x Breaktrough
- 4x Narcomoeba
- 2x Bridge

Not really sure on the Bridges at as the last 2 slots. Anyway since you want to maximize the use of Unmask you also want to keep your black card count up! Thats the idea

Thx, i will test it

[joemauer]

I would rather have Tribe than Grudge against Crypt and Relic game 2/3.

I feel like a frozen caveman from the year 2007 who just got awakened in 2012.
What happened to the economy?!
A black president?!
Grudge is bad against tormod's crypt?!?!
What is going on?!?

[Anusien]

Hmmm.... I have 4 PImps and 2 Tribes MD right now. You suggest I should have 2 Tribes and 2 Grudges instead of 4 Grudges from SB, or even a 1 Tirbe 3 Grudges, maybe?
Could you further explain?

I am saying I would board in extra Tribes against Tormod's Crypt before I would board in Ancient Grudge.

I feel like a frozen caveman from the year 2007 who just got awakened in 2012. *
What happened to the economy?! *
A black president?!
Grudge is bad against tormod's crypt?!?!
What is going on?!?

You're definitely a caveman, then. Grudge was never good against Tormod's Crypt.

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...pt with Dredge

I've turned a corner on some things, like whether Tireless Tribe or Faithless Looting is better against the field, but against Tormod's Crypt, I'd rather have 4x of each before I run the first Ancient Grudge.

Ancient Grudge forces them to blow Crypt now. (This happens inevitably when dredging anyway). Even if you can get them to blow Crypt, you still need to Dredge again and overwhelm them. So you need a discard outlet AND a draw effect post-Crypt to get back into the game. Tireless Tribe provides a discard outlet to let you start dredging; if you can keep it on the board, each draw effect counters a Crypt.

[Final Fortune]

I am saying I would board in extra Tribes against Tormod's Crypt before I would board in Ancient Grudge.

You're definitely a caveman, then. Grudge was never good against Tormod's Crypt.

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...pt with Dredge

I've turned a corner on some things, like whether Tireless Tribe or Faithless Looting is better against the field, but against Tormod's Crypt, I'd rather have 4x of each before I run the first Ancient Grudge.

Ancient Grudge forces them to blow Crypt now. (This happens inevitably when dredging anyway). Even if you can get them to blow Crypt, you still need to Dredge again and overwhelm them. So you need a discard outlet AND a draw effect post-Crypt to get back into the game. Tireless Tribe provides a discard outlet to let you start dredging; if you can keep it on the board, each draw effect counters a Crypt.

It's not that Ancient Grudge is bad against Tormod's Crypt, it's that Ancient Grudge is only good against Tormod's Crypt and spending MD slots in order to address a hate card they may or may not draw isn't as good as spending MD slots in order to play around hate when they do draw it or advance your game plan when they don't draw it.

I feel like Tireless Tribe, and to a certain extent Chain of Vapor, are the kind of cards Dredge wants because they address the hate cards you need them to respectively while not being dead cards otherwise.

[joemauer]

You're definitely a caveman, then. Grudge was never good against Tormod's Crypt.

We must have different definitions of 'good against'.

Me: A card is good against another card if it can destroy opposing card with ease.

You: A card is good against another card if it can force your opponent to sacrifice opposing card and wipe out your graveyard(which is dredge's lifeline).

[NecroYawgmoth]

The thing is that Grudge still doesn't save your graveyard.

If you have like ~20 cards in your Graveyard, and they have a Crypt, you don't need that Grudge. They are forced to use the Crypt or lose. Than you need to rebuild your grave asap. This is were PImp and Tribe [and Studies]are better than Grudge.

Grudge is also IMO not only good against Crypt. It's better against Relic than it is against Crypt. Also, Grudge can kill Batterskulls and Jittes which is sometimes relevant. I see myself boarding Grudges more against Equipment than against hate.

[joemauer]

The thing is that Grudge still doesn't save your graveyard.

If you have like ~20 cards in your Graveyard, and they have a Crypt, you don't need that Grudge. They are forced to use the Crypt or lose. Than you need to rebuild your grave asap. This is were PImp and Tribe [and Studies]are better than Grudge.

Grudge is also IMO not only good against Crypt. It's better against Relic than it is against Crypt. Also, Grudge can kill Batterskulls and Jittes which is sometimes relevant. I see myself boarding Grudges more against Equipment than against hate.

I usually use Grudge before I build up my graveyard. Most players will drop crypt into play as soon as they have it in hand, even mutliples. So blowing up crypt prior is a common occurence.

Being able to dredge into grudge forces the opponent to blow up your yard at that moment and not when you get something saucy in there like DR, ichorid, or bridge.

With all that being said you are 100% right as to why grudge is so awesome. There is a reason it stayed in people's sideboard(as a two or three of) even when crypt/relic got replaced with surgical extraction.

[Anusien]

Grudge has some utility against Crypt. But because a Faithless Looting counters Crypt as easily as a Grudge, I'd rather just max out on the draw spells. That way they don't Crypt you and you topdeck Ancient Grudge instead of a discard outlet or a dredger or a draw spell.