[Deck] Dredge

[joemauer]

....

[joemauer]

I would use Grislebrand along side Flayer. This would be the best way to optimize Grislebrand as well as Flayer.

Grislebrand is a good target on it's own. Works a similar role as Sun Titan. Establish awesome board presence while drawing/dredging cards. I imagine he would be nice to accidentally have in hand against Show and Tell decks.

I mean he eats up one card of the deck and is an insta-win if dread returned. Why all the hate?

[HokusSchmokus]

Grislebrand isn't a good target on it's own.

Fixed.

[Final Fortune]

Fixed.

Seriously dude, I don't know whether or not Griselbrand kicked your dog or something, but it's perfectly fine to play just 2xDR and a Griselbrand in your MD or SB. That guy has been nothing but awesome in every archetype that he's been sensibly included in, and Dredge isn't that much of a stretch for him. Whether or not you actually want to play with Dread Return and a target at all is another argument, but it doesn't really have anything to do with Griselbrand being a bad choice if you do choose to play DR and a target.

I've had pretty much no regrets running 2xDR and a Griselbrand in my SB for awhile to fight Surgical Extraction fwiw.

[Brot_Ohne_Kruste]

Hi there,

here is my little report from the Bazaar of Moxen 6 tournaments: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...ge-with-Dredge

I hope you like it :-).

[rxavage]

I've had pretty much no regrets running 2xDR and a Griselbrand in my SB for awhile to fight Surgical Extraction fwiw.

How does Griselbrand fight surgical extraction exactly?

[Calado]

I'm getting confused about this. Speaking about versatility, we have usually:
-Flayer, wich allow us winning without attacking (needing another DR on GY);
-Iona, wich can shut down the opponent spells (doesn't help against Emrakul on the board either);
-Angel of Despair, wich can destroy something critical that was stopping us or can remove their wincon (very good against Emrakul/Griselbrand/Archon/etc);
-Griselbrand, wich can dredge the entire deck finding whatever is in it instantly (DRs, DR targets that can be one of the mentioned above, Narco/Bridges, Cabals, etc). This is the all-in play, wich can guarantee the use of the full potential of the deck the same turn.

I can't understand why all options are good but Griselbrand, considering that all of them does the job when DR'ed. A "winmore condition" sometimes can turn an "almost win" into a real victory, especially against fast clocks.

[HokusSchmokus]

The thing is that you are never able to use Griselbrands effect properly. If you DR him, you should have at least 20 cards in your gy, most likely more. Than pay 7 life for a draw 3-4? I don't think Griselbrand is efficient in this deck, that is all.

Also, for every German speaker: check out Brot's blog at mtg-forum.de, way better report:P

[dredgekid]

The thing is that you are never able to use Griselbrands effect properly. If you DR him, you should have at least 20 cards in your gy, most likely more. Than pay 7 life for a draw 3-4? I don't think Griselbrand is efficient in this deck, that is all.

Also, for every German speaker: check out Brot's blog at mtg-forum.de, way better report:P

You are looking at it wrong. In a combo shell of dredge with a flayer kill, Gris reads WIN TARGET GAME. Find all pieces you are missing and kill them.

[Tammit67]

You are looking at it wrong. In a combo shell of dredge with a flayer kill, Gris reads WIN TARGET GAME. Find all pieces you are missing and kill them.

Which you made harder to do initially with 3 DR + 2 targets. I'd rather run 2 DR and 1 target and nut up on things that will get me to that point. Any dread return target should win us the game on its own. If resolving a DR wins us that game, I'd rather do it more consistently and with fewer slots.

[NecroYawgmoth]

You are looking at it wrong. In a combo shell of dredge with a flayer kill, Gris reads WIN TARGET GAME. Find all pieces you are missing and kill them.

Which needs 3 DRs in one turn...

DR Grisel, pay 7 life, flip your deck.
DR Flayer, do the usual stuff
DR GGT, win.

How many DRs would you want in that deck?

[Anusien]

Griselbrand is an updated Sphinx of Lost Truths. If you ran that effect, you run Griselbrand instead. If you didn't, Griselbrand isn't significantly better enough to justify his inclusion.

[Calado]

If you DR him, you should have at least 20 cards in your gy, most likely more. Than pay 7 life for a draw 3-4?

If with 20 cards in GY you will win, then with 50 cards it'll be the same. But the opposite doesn't happen. Sometimes you need that bridge or that DR target that didn't come yet.
You guys are analyzing only scenarios where you don't need him. The question is: When you can't win without DR, how often will Griselbrand turn the loss into a win?

[NecroYawgmoth]

When you can't win without DR, how often will Flayer of the Hatebound turn the loss into a win?
When you can't win without DR, how often will Iona, Shield of Emeria turn the loss into a win?

I am not saying Griselbrand is bad. He is an updated Sphinx, right... This is why he is better in Manaless which doesn't have any drawspells. But in a deck with 8 Studies and 4 BTs, why Do I want a DR-target that draws cards?

Yes, Griselbrand is the next best Sphinx. But no one runned Sphinx, and now everyone wants to run Griselbrand.

[HokusSchmokus]

Griselbrand is an updated Sphinx of Lost Truths. If you ran that effect, you run Griselbrand instead. If you didn't, Griselbrand isn't significantly better enough to justify his inclusion.

This. So much.
Also, in EU the RUG Delver Decks don't suck so much as they do in US (read: they run Stifle)

[Gui]

Technically Griselbrand will turn loses into wins more often than Sphinx, since it can turn loss into win by being a 7/7 flying lifelink in addition to drawing more cards.

To me, more imporant than this question -> How often you can't win without DR target but if you had it you could? I don't have numbers for this, but my guess is that it's not as often as people think. This is why I play 0 targets in maindeck.

[Anusien]

I find Dread Return much more useful in game 2s. People are more equipped to fight Bridges and Ichorids. I find being able to jam a 9/9 Troll closes a lot of games before the opponent can topdeck a Crypt.

[Calado]

This is why I play 0 targets in maindeck.

I'm getting addicted to this play style, except when Iona is absolute (I have friends who run ANT and Blade Control too).

What I really liked in the tournament report is the part when SnT resolves and he wrote "Cephalid Coliseum couldn’t match the massive flier", and next turn the Coliseum activation gave Mark bridges, narcomoebas and ichorids enough to seal the victory.

[jares]

I find Dread Return much more useful in game 2s. People are more equipped to fight Bridges and Ichorids. I find being able to jam a 9/9 Troll closes a lot of games before the opponent can topdeck a Crypt.

I've actually foregone the use of Dread Returns altogether, but I do miss the option of being able to win the game this way, as it does add another dynamic to the deck. Successful battles using 9/9 Trolls are good reminders that I should continue to keep a DR in my back pocket.

Cheers,
jares

[Final Fortune]

How does Griselbrand fight surgical extraction exactly?

Diversification, if the opponent removes Golgari Grave Troll(s) from the game with Surgical Extraction then you still have a target worth Dread Returning left in your deck.

Also, people need to stop speaking non-sense about "only" Dredging three activations and having to draw 4 cards being a "bad" thing, being able to trigger the card twice in the same turn, or multiple turns, and keeping some cards in hand is what makes the card busted. Those drawn cards matter too, a lot.