I wouldn't lose what is already written on the core (because it is very good), just add to it. When Goblins was a DTB it was easier to say THIS is the optimal build because it beats decks A, B, and C. Now it seems like the best build depends on the meta and choosing Chieftain over Warchief isn't "wrong" in the same sense that it used to be.Originally Posted by GoboLord
I agree that it would be too difficult to keep our primer updated with tips on specific matchups as the meta changes every 3 months (new cards!). We should be adding posts to the thread like jrw's about RUG whenever we have an epiphany after a very successful or unsuccessful night against them.
I understand this, but I still run 7 other tutorable ways to deal with Tegg, and people usually side them out against us.
1 - +4 Thorn, +1 Mox, +3 Surgical, -1 Tarfire, -4 Gempalm, -1 Ringleader, -1Shooter, -1 Tuktuk. If they are Hive Mind, then +2 Tuktuk, -1 Ringleader.
2 - I liked the deck as it is. Don't know what I'd play on a next tournament...
Thanks!
I would run them, but by no means think it is right. Mox is usually bad against Maverick and Esper, so that alone are good reasons to cut them out...
Super Bizarros Team. Beating everything with small green dudes and big waves.
I see Hive Mind nearly weekly, and I rarely see Emrakul out of him. If your player consistently goes for the Spaghetti + Meatballs kill, up your Stingscourger count to at least 2. Remember to hold on to a Matron or a Stinger if you suspect you're playing against sneak and show, and as long as they don't go for Progenitus you'll be fine.
As far as a general strategy, I just try to be as fast as possible with my kill. Resolving a Lackey is huge in this match-up, and your opponent will be doing everything in his power to stop you from doing so.
Some typically dead cards that you may or may not play in your MD:
Gempalm Incinerator
Goblin Sharpshooter
Tarfire (gives a little reach, but mostly dead)
Pyrokinesis
Some potential sideboard inclusions:
Thorn of Amethyst (really the only way to interact with the Pact of Whatever plan)
TukTuk Scrapper/Shattering Spree
Stingscourger (I like these in the MD)
another sideboard option you forgot to mention - Red Elemental Blast, can make your opponent think twice before casting SnT/Hive Mind without counterspell backup. This is the one I use and hope for the best.
Since we're on this topic, I'd like to raise a question. This is a rules question concerning Aether Vial, Stingscourger, Sneak Attack and Emrakul.
Ok lets say my opponent sneaks in Emrakul on his precombat and intends to attack with it. I would like to vial in my stingscourger to prevent an attack. Is there any time during any step where I can vial in my stingscourger to prevent him from tapping another red mana to re-sneak Emrakul in? My friend tells me either way I'll be facing at least annihilator 6. So I suppose there is no way to dodge the annihilator 6 if he has 2 sources of red mana open and untapped?
Unfortunately after Stingscourger’s ability resolves (and it’s meaningless in which step – main phase or beginning of combat step – it entered the battlefield ) your opponent can hold his priority and sneak in Emmy – the one which was early bounced. In the declare attackers step when Emmy is getting taped the annihilator trigger goes immediately on the stack (because no one gets priority before attackers are declared). Bouncing Emmy in this step will not counter this trigger.
Not entirely true. Your opponent passes priority to you when he moves to combat. This is how you make use of cards like Icy Manipulator to tap down a creature prior to it being declared as an attacker.
In this particular case it doesn't really matter...your opponent can re-sneak the Emrakul prior to his declare attackers step. Best case scenario, you're saving yourself 15 damage...but you'll still get hit with the annihilator 6.
It sounds like there's some confusion about the attack step. Here's how it's broken down (from http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazin...ly/feature/42a)
Combat Phase
•Beginning of combat step
•Declare attackers step
•Declare blockers step
•Combat damage step
•End of combat step
During each of these steps both players must pass priority before moving on to the next step. So, if Emrakul is Sneaked in it doesn't matter when you Vial in Stingscourger if they still have one red mana open. This is because they can still Sneak Emrakul in at the Beginning of combat step and declare it as an attacker in the declare attackers step. If you Vial in Stingscourger in response to Emrakul attacking you still get pinged for Annihilator 6. You'll save 15 damage, but since they have an active Snaek Attack they'll just replay him next turn, you'll take Annihilator 6 again, and then you take 15 damage.
Shitty asshole tactic:
If you say, "Move to Combat Phase," to your opponent, and they respond with an instant, you are still in your main phase. After their instant resolves you can still cast sorcerys et al, because you're still in the main phase. Your opponent probably assumes that you're moving to declare attackers (since this is what most people do when they take short-cuts to the decalre attackers step), and they assume their instant is resolving in the Beginning of combat step, but if you worded it "Move to Combat Phase" then it is still the Main Phase and you'll have priority after their Instant resolves.
However, if you say "Move to declare attackers," you're essentially saying you're skipping from your first Main Phase straight to the Declare attackers step, and your opponent can now put that instant speed effect on the stack in the Beginning of combat step. Obviously, you cannot play sorcery speed effects at this point.
Here's a good breakdown of the combat phase I found...
http://stason.org/TULARC/games/magic...hase-Magi.html
Good Guy jrw1985 =]
I don't agree saying "Move to combat Phase" is an "Shitty asshole tactic". You and your opponent must both know the rules, and if you can gain an edge by saying that, because if he responds, you can cast a sorcery or creature, then good for you.
May last tournament I won an edge by saying: "Can all combat dmg resolve?". Was that an asshole tactic for you too? I'm not doing anything off the books. In fact, and clearly asking my opponent my intent, and give him time to respond.
Super Bizarros Team. Beating everything with small green dudes and big waves.
Well I would certainly never call YOU an asshole, Mr ScatmanX. But creating vagueness to confuse your opponent as to the game state doesn't sit super well with me. It certainly isn't cheating, but it's gaining an edge through being more savy (which is different than being better, in my opinion). I'm sure there's a whole thread about it somewhere on the Source.
Shame that the bouncing on Emrakul doesn't work. I feel like with the printing of Griselbrand, it's necessary to have a good matchup against Show and Tell. My gut feeling is that due to Griselbrand, players will lose interest in the Hive Mind approach so I'm going to focus 100% on beating the Sneak and Show variant. Do you guys agree with this sentiment?
Then, there seem to be a bit of buzz around the Miracle CounterTop decks sporting not Temporal Mastery but Terminus and Entreat the Angels. Having played a few matches against this deck on MWS, I can attest to it's strength and it's very tough to beat. Luckily, the printing of Cavern of Souls helps us out. I did find another weakness, the deck seems to be very reliant on Sensei's Top. With Griselbrand and Top looking to be two of the top contenders in tomorrows metagame I feel like we it's time to dust off those Pithing Needles again and play them in the sideboard. I must say, they have done their job admirably so far; it allowed me to beat Sneak Attack and won me a few matches against CounterTop. Do note that Sneak and Show almost always plays 4 Scalding Tarn while ANT usually has 4 Polluted Delta and UW Control runs 4 Flooded Strand, so those are good targets as well.
Mogg Fanatic hasn't performed well for me in the last few testing sessions. To fill up it's place I like Stingscourger as it helps against Sneak and Show. When I tested with them, I also found that they are great at beating another long time foe; Vedalken Shackles. Just bounce that Ringleader and get to flip 4 additional times. It also feels good not having to waste Matron on finding them anymore when facing a Tombstalker or similar scary creature, as with 3 copies chances are they already found their way into my hand.
The list I'm currently testing looks like this:
// Lands
15 [5E] Mountain (4)
4 [JGC] Wasteland
4 [AVR] Cavern of Souls
// Creatures
4 [V09] Goblin Lackey
4 [ZEN] Warren Instigator
4 [M12] Goblin Chieftain
4 [US] Goblin Matron
4 [AP] Goblin Ringleader
2 [10E] Siege-Gang Commander
3 [LE] Gempalm Incinerator
1 [10E] Mogg Fanatic
3 [PLC] Stingscourger
// Spells
4 [V10] AEther Vial
4 [PD2] Lightning Bolt
// Sideboard
SB: 4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
SB: 4 [U] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 [5E] Pyroblast
SB: 4 [M10] Pithing Needle
SB: 2 [LRW] Thorn of Amethyst
Dredge seems to have disappeared from my metagame and along with it the need for graveyard hate. Combo however, despite it's abysmal place in the metagame, is still out in full force, hence the Chalice and Thorn.
Noteworthy as well is that I chose to run 23 lands as I find that I was just losing too many games to manascrew with just 22 lands. I never quite understood why people have cut down their lands to as few as 20, but maybe it's my play style.
Team R&D
if you're hating on shackles I really think you should just go for tuktuk scrapper. Shackles is just like Jitte, once its active for a couple turns you're in trouble coz you'll be getting 2/3/4-for-1ed, and thats why people like jrw and me both play 2 tuktuk scrapper maindeck. The potential for a blowout because of ONE artifact is high against us, and i don't really like to see jitte, not have a maindeck artifact answer and say "OK i lose, lets go to g2".
its true that sneak&show + miracle control are becoming more rampant.
The fact that I asked that question about Sneak attack + Emrakul shows what a horrible time I've been having with the former. As for Miracle control, I can attest to getting blown out by back-to-back terminus, and then entreat the angels (my opponent was at 2 life!). Red Elemental Blast helps this matchup a bit, remember to kill jace on sight because it sets up miracles, and I would advise 1-2 anarchy from the sideboard it trumps their wincon (entreat the angels) if they are stupid enough to tap out for maximum X without FOW backup. They won't see it coming and you can randomly steal a game from it (assuming this is a tournament and your opponent doesn't know you/your deck/your sideboard).
If anybody else can contribute advice on how to beat these two decks please feel free to chime in...I'm still feeling my way around them (without much success), and I'm sure a lot of other goblin players are too.
@ScatmanX:
What was the context? Why would you ask if all combat damage was resolving? He forgot to declare blockers or?
Im pretty sure that is an illegal move
When Stingscourger enters the battlefield, return target creature an opponent controls to its owner's hand.
Its sad that stingscourger is the perfect answer to SnT, the other half of the combo that we can REB. Leaving Sneak Attack unanswerable unless proactively with Needle, but then we are open to Grislebrand.
I dont remember E.E. being suggested as a SB card against miracle.deck. Kills angels for 2 (and other token based strategies - I'm looking at you dredge) and can be set at one against Delver and elves.
Pretty sure it's not...
Stingscourger - Return target creature an opponent controls to it's owner's hand.
Vedalken Shackles - Gain control of target creature
When you play Stingscourger it only checks to make sure that the creature you target is being controlled by an opponent. At the time Mantis is targeting his own Ringleader, it is being controlled by his opponent due to Shackles.
Maybe the confusion lies with the difference between owner and controller? Even though the opponent controls the Ringleader (and is therefore a legal target for Stingscourger), when it is being returned it goes back to the hand of the person who brought it to the table.
Never thought about that... we can give our Matrons and Ringleader with Bazaar Trader and bounce them back to our hand with Stingscourger.
/edit: if only they would print a threaten Goblin! ;)
I think this is a good idea. Pithing needles for the tops/fetchlands and EE sounds like a decent SB strategy.
As for the Sneak/show decks, our only hope lies in pithing needle for sneak attack and REB/stingscourger for Show and Tell? That actually sounds like we don't stand much of a chance. I bet they'll bring in some form of pyroclasm effect in g2 to rape us too.
@avatara:
screw the bazaar trader and just use kiki jiki :)
you are right -.-
I just don't like Tuktuk Scrapper enough against Blade and Vedalken Shackles sees so little play that it's hardly a convincing argument to put them in my 75.
I already thought about how best to handle Entreat the Angels and if the deck is getting to see a lot of play in it's current form, I would advise Earwig Squad. If you take the Entreat the Angels, of which they currently run 2 copies most of the time, they are going to have to win through Jace TMS. The first time I played against Entreat the Angels, it really surprised me but now I think I can beat the deck with the help of Top. Anarchy seems really slow and it doesn't hit any of the big metagame contenders. UW Control can just use Entreat the Angels at instant speed with Top anyway, so I think Anarchy is a bad choice. Engineered Explosives could be good against Entreat the Angels, we will have to see how the metagame evolves. I don't think we have enough reasons to justify EE other than Entreat the Angels right now.
I'm not going to claim it's a good matchup but I feel with the strategy I proposed it's winnable. Otherwise I see no way of really beating them anyway. To my knowledge, most Sneak and Show have cut the Pyroclasms from their SB, but I could be wrong. If they do play it the matchup gets even trickier. But to me there seem to be quite a few avenues of attack. Remember that Lackey and Instigator will pretty much always connect and that with Siege Gang you can take an Annihilator hit. Also note that Wasteland is really good in this matchup and that REB can also hit a crucial Intuition or Brainstorm and screw over their setup. What you set Needle to is extremely important, if you set it to Sneak Attack and they have Show and Tell + Griselbrand you just lose and vice versa.
Team R&D
another direction we could go is to bring back the rishadan ports that have been eating dust for too long...not the full set, but as a psuedo 5th (or even 6th?) wasteland. This allows us to pressure with lackey while keeping their ancient tombs or dual land locked down. (the latter can be done if you have no wasteland at the moment and want to keep them off a colour).
My tuktuk scrapper is there mainly because I fear jitte, which just wins against goblins on its own if left there.
He had a fetchland into play, and didn't realized his Knight of the Relicary would die to combat dmg, because of Chieftain's pump. I did not feel obligated to remember him that.
@Beating SnT: I guess Mantis list can rape SnT decks hard. It looks really good agains it. Maybe a B splash for Squad as he suggested himself might be a good option too. If you get to see his deck, might be quite easy t assume what combo piece he is missing (SnT/Sneak or big dude).
I just don't know if that list can handle Maverick, Esper, and other miscelanious agroo decks, like Goblins and Elves, very easily, giving the absence od Knesis, but 11 removal might be able to pull it off...
Super Bizarros Team. Beating everything with small green dudes and big waves.
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