All B/R update speculation.

[thefringthing]

Relevant excerpt from a Pat Chapin article:

What is the solution?

Legacy is actually not in bad shape, of course. There are a ton of decks getting played, and in fact 20 different archetypes appear among these three top 10 lists, as well as over 40 archetypes appearing over the year. No single deck or strategy is dominating, even if most of the top strategies are fueled by Brainstorm and Force of Will. Something needs to change, but the only cards truly ban-worthy on paper are Brainstorm and Force of Will, both of which continue to get the free pass until compelling evidence is presented to argue otherwise. Brainstorm is definitely on the watch list, despite its untouchable status. Obviously, just about everyone would jump to throw Snapcaster Mage under the bus before it ever came to that, but there is another way.

Time to unban something!

The Legacy banned list features 60 cards, which is a nice round number, but a high one. Maybe the solution to loosening blue's iron grip on the format is to unban something that promotes non-blue decks. Let's take a quick look at the top candidates:

Demonic Consultation
Demonic Consultation is an extremely powerful tutor and can lead to blisteringly fast combo decks, generally based around Tendrils of Agony and rituals. This is potentially troublesome if it actually forces more people to play Force of Will. Another potentially big Demonic Consultation-based strategy is that of aggro-control. Consult has often been excellent in decks like CounterSliver. Would it just help Brainstorm decks?

Although Consult would appear in some Brainstorm decks, as well as some fast combo decks, you have to remember the status quo is 75% blue. Even if half the Consult decks are blue, they could easily lower the total number of Brainstorms and Force of Wills getting played. Consult provides an extremely powerful tool for Junk, a deck that isn't far from being able to compete. Aggro-Loam might use it, and perhaps some sort of B/x aggro deck would emerge. Some Belcher or other fast non-blue combo decks may use it as well.

Why was it banned? It is an extremely powerful tutor, restricted even in Vintage (though to be fair, it is definitely worth considering unrestricting it in Vintage this year). Does it need to stay banned? Maybe not. It does have a steep drawback; it is skill-testing; it goes in a variety of decks; it would actually be good; and it can be fun.

Verdict: Worth strongly considering

Mind Twist
One of the most infamous cards in the game's history, Mind Twist was one of the few cards ever banned in Vintage. Times have changed however, and now it is not only unbanned but unrestricted. Maybe it is time to do the same in Legacy? After all, other than Dark Ritual, what good ways are there to Mind Twist? Using traditional rituals leads to card parity. Ancient Tomb, City of Traitors, and various Moxes are good, but how fast are you really going to be able to Mind Twist anyway? It's not like there is any shortage of free countermagic, and people could always use Misdirection (though admittedly, that is a blue card).

One problem with Mind Twist is that it may not be that good, but if it is, it can get unfun pretty fast. Would Junk use Mind Twist? Would Mind Twist be used exclusively in dedicated "Mind Twist decks?" Would that even be good? That can't possibly be nearly as unfair as Belcher, right? Besides, people could use anti-discard cards if they wanted, as there are plenty of them.

Verdict: Safe, but decent chance that it isn't even that good.

Land Tax
Land Tax is probably the card most requested to be unbanned by Legacy players. Is it finally time? In its favor, it is an extremely powerful card for quite a number of non-blue decks (even if it does go in some blue decks). It promotes basic land usage; it is skill-testing; it is interesting to build around; and the format is so powerful now, it is not like it is even that brutal when it works.

The problems? First of all, tournament organizers have it out for this card. It involves tons of shuffling, increased cheating, and can drag games to a crawl. It is also very powerful in a way that gets not healthy really fast.

I sympathize with the TOs who want their events to run at a reasonable pace and, out of respect for Land Tax's power, have argued against unbanning it on multiple occasions. That said, I think the time has come to give Land Tax a fair examination. Fetchlands, Brainstorming, Jace, Tops, and more leave no shortage of these types of effects in the format. I actually think Land Tax might contribute enough to the format to make up for the mild strain it puts on things. Additionally, the format has gotten so strong, it is actually reasonable to think Land Tax could exist without toppling things. Besides, if nothing else, it can throw a bone to the loyal fans who have been fighting for it for so many years. Additionally, it's not like it couldn't get banned again, if needed. I am not convinced it is the most fun card to unban, but if Consult isn't safe, Land Tax should be considered (Mind Twist is probably a gimme).

Verdict: Probably safe, but the strain it puts on tournament play makes it a longer shot. Worth strongly considering.

Worldgorger Dragon
Another random combo card that isn't actually any better than the other cards that are legal. Even with Entomb legal, it is not clear that this is even better than Reanimator targets like Iona and Jin Gitaxias. Even if it was, graveyard hate exists and is easy. Unfortunately, Worldgorger Dragon decks tend to be blue fast combo decks.

Verdict: Safe, but doesn't do what we are trying to do at all. Should be taken off at some point on principle, but we can do better if we only get to unban one card.

What do you think? Can any of these cards be unbanned? If you could unban one, which would it be? Or do you think Snapcaster Mage or Brainstorm needs to be banned? Legacy is alive and well, so it is not an absolute must that something be changed in March (at least not yet), but the way things are going, I have a suspicion a shake-up is coming...

Patrick Chapin
"The Innovator"

[caiomarcos]

big list

That was a good quick analysis, but you really underestimated Yawgmoth's Will and Strip Mine.

Like many, I would like to see mass unbanings, not more banned cards.

[Tacosnape]

This thread really makes me remember why I quit posting here the first time. This has gone from intelligent discussion about the power levels of Show and Tell and the relevant format power levels to people suggesting unbannings of cards like Yawgmoth's Will, Strip Mine, Gush, Hermit Druid, and Demonic Consultation. The magic community has lost their minds.

The reality of the situation is that most likely nothing's going to change. Maybe Brainstorm'll get banned, but most likely not - It's been this powerful for this long. Maybe Show and Tell will get banned, but most likely not. Wizards has a fascination with stupidly huge creatures winning games. Nothing else is a realistic candidate for banning. And maybe some strong-but-not-broken cards would get unbanned, like Land Tax, Mind Twist, or Earthcraft, but probably not. Tax would fit too well in Miracles and slow games down, which Wizards hates, and Wizards has an unnatural fear of random discard and squirrels being competitive.

So chances are nothing's going to change.

EDIT: Also, I didn't read this article, but if Pat Chapin suggests unbanning Demonic Consultation, he understands nothing about Legacy or Magic whatsoever. Demonic Consultation is the single strongest tutor card ever printed, ever, period. One mana, for an instant, to get a combo piece in your hand is just astronomically dumb. The drawback just isn't one - Just set up decks that tutor for 4 of's, and you'll lose about 1 game from exiling them all for every 300 you'd lose for not having Demonic Consultation.

[Esper3k]

EDIT: Also, I didn't read this article, but if Pat Chapin suggests unbanning Demonic Consultation, he understands nothing about Legacy or Magic whatsoever. Demonic Consultation is the single strongest tutor card ever printed, ever, period. One mana, for an instant, to get a combo piece in your hand is just astronomically dumb. The drawback just isn't one - Just set up decks that tutor for 4 of's, and you'll lose about 1 game from exiling them all for every 300 you'd lose for not having Demonic Consultation.

Demonic Tutor and Vampiric Tutor would like to have a word with you :)

I do agree that unbanning Demonic Consultation would be insane though.

[Lejay]

Vampiric and demonic are clearly weaker. I don't how you get to that conclusion. One is a two mana sorcery and the other is card disadvantage. When your deck is built properly demonic's drawback is irrelevant probably 98% of the time.

[Tacosnape]

Vampiric and demonic are clearly weaker. I don't how you get to that conclusion. One is a two mana sorcery and the other is card disadvantage. When your deck is built properly demonic's drawback is irrelevant probably 98% of the time.

This. You can't even remotely argue Vampiric in here - One gets you the card on top of your library, one gets you the card in your hand. MAYBE you can pitch Demonic here - 2 mana at Sorcery Speed, but no drawback, but 1 at Instant tops all in my book.

EDIT: I did just notice Demonic Consultation isn't banned in Commander. The idea of this is absolutely hilarious.

[Esper3k]

Vampiric and Demonic Tutors both free up a lot more deck space though. Playing Consultation requires you to play your targets as 4-ofs whereas the other two lets you play what you're tutoring for as a 1-of.

There's a reason why both Vampiric and Demonic Tutors are the first tutors Vintage decks go for as opposed to Consultation.

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

Vampiric and Demonic Tutors both free up a lot more deck space though. Playing Consultation requires you to play your targets as 4-ofs whereas the other two lets you play what you're tutoring for as a 1-of.

There's a reason why both Vampiric and Demonic Tutors are the first tutors Vintage decks go for as opposed to Consultation.

Half the shit you would consult in Vintage is restricted.

*wait*

Get it now?

[Koby]

Sure, let's go ahead and unban Demonic Consultation. It's like living the Trix dream all over again. Might even make Firestorm good again too.

[Vacrix]

This has gone from intelligent discussion about the power levels of Show and Tell and the relevant format power levels to people suggesting unbannings of cards like Yawgmoth's Will, Strip Mine, Gush, Hermit Druid, and Demonic Consultation. The magic community has lost their minds.

I don't think the magic community has lost their minds, there are just a lot of stupid people that haven't actually played with these cards that just shit words out of their mouths and call it logic.

For example, people keep telling me with a gut reaction that Mind's Desire is far too powerful to get unbanned... but they haven't actually tried to test it against the current format or they'd know how outclassed it is by Ad Nauseam in Drit combo and TS in High Tide.

EDIT:
Hard to believe Mr. Chapin would consider unbanning Demonic Consultation but honestly I don't know him or read his shit. Is he familiar with Legacy Storm combo because even if they banned LED, storm players would find a way to make it completely busted.

[Arianrhod]

I remember that article, and it was a while ago. Certainly well before the rise of Thresh/Maverick/Stoneblade, and whole eons before Sneak/Show vs Thresh. Trying to use his opinions at the time and apply them to the current meta, which is now filled with cards that didn't exist (Griselbrand, Delver, Snapcaster, at the very least) which have in turn warped/created decks that didn't exist at the time, is just purely asinine. The meta is completely different on almost every level than when he wrote that.

I think Vacrix is correct, though -- I wonder how many people in here have actually played vintage seriously at any point, because if you don't play with the cards, all you're operating on is theory...and most people suck at theory.

[thefringthing]

Trying to use his opinions at the time and apply them to the current meta, which is now filled with cards that didn't exist (Griselbrand, Delver, Snapcaster, at the very least) which have in turn warped/created decks that didn't exist at the time, is just purely asinine. The meta is completely different on almost every level than when he wrote that.

Not so good at reading comprehension, eh?

[Gheizen64]

Chapin seriously considering consultation? How long has he been playing this game? The tutor is easily the best tutor by far in a format without restricted cards. If he was around at the time of Ice Age he should remember that.
Vampiric is way more considerable, and that's also too good when you consider you'd make decks like SnT, Reanimator and Doomdsday at least 34.2% better.

[AriLax]

I honestly don't even think Storm would be the best Consult deck. No idea what would be, but all I know is you would need Burning Wish if you played it and that deck wouldn't be much better than current TES.

It would probably be something stupid and obnoxious like Hive Mind.

[emidln]

I honestly don't even think Storm would be the best Consult deck. No idea what would be, but all I know is you would need Burning Wish if you played it and that deck wouldn't be much better than current TES.

It would probably be something stupid and obnoxious like Hive Mind.

Even in a developed metagame (full of decks packing Force of Wills, Flusterstorms, and quick combo kills of their own via High Tide/Reanimator/Hive Mind), the black belcher list on stormboards with 4 Consult is something I dream about. You don't want this deck in your metagame:

4 Demonic Consultation
4 Ad Nauseam
4 Goblin Charbelcher
1 Diabolic Intent/Infernal Tutor/Duress
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Culling the Weak
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 Mox Opal
4 Shield Sphere
4 Ornithopter
2 Phyrexian Walker
4 Land Grant
1 Bayou

[Piceli89]

Even in a developed metagame (full of decks packing Force of Wills, Flusterstorms, and quick combo kills of their own via High Tide/Reanimator/Hive Mind), the black belcher list on stormboards with 4 Consult is something I dream about. You don't want this deck in your metagame:

4 Demonic Consultation
4 Ad Nauseam
4 Goblin Charbelcher
1 Diabolic Intent/Infernal Tutor/Duress
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Culling the Weak
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 Mox Opal
4 Shield Sphere
4 Ornithopter
2 Phyrexian Walker
4 Land Grant
1 Bayou

I wouldn't if it had an actual way to kill me.

[leegoo]

ban mystical tutor
unban demonic consultation

...
....

right.

Tutors that let you find kill conditions, mana, or protection (for one mana without card disadvantage and at instant speed no less) are not safe.

[nedleeds]

I leave for a day and people are talking about unbanning instant one mana demonic tutor ....

[emidln]

I wouldn't if it had an actual way to kill me.

So Consult->AdN, draw a billion cards, belch you (even if I have less than 20 cards left mind you, I still therapy the fuck out of you then do it again next turn).

[Star|Scream]

So Consult->AdN, draw a billion cards, belch you (even if I have less than 20 cards left mind you, I still therapy the fuck out of you then do it again next turn).

Who says the English language is deteriorating?