All B/R update speculation.

[Star|Scream]

Stingerfling Spider also nails fliying creatures, is a spider, and is green; a perfect fit. Silklash Spider used to see (fringe) Legacy play to kill fliers.

And costs 5 when you need it on turn 2 or 3


Also:

I think a lot of people here are taking this article http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/l...rainstorm.html a little too literally.

[TooCloseToTheSun]

Yeah, exactly. This outlines the problems people have with blue. Reducing variance is part of blue's identity as a color. If they really wanted to see all five colors to appear at the same quantities in tournaments, R&D would have to give this ability to all colors. Right now, the way Magic is and has been designed, Blue has a tactical advantage over the others.

I think it's more a problem with deck builders. Every color has ways to reduce variance, depending on what you are trying to do, but bad deck builders will never understand that.

[DrJones]

Yeah, exactly. This outlines the problems people have with blue. Reducing variance is part of blue's identity as a color. If they really wanted to see all five colors to appear at the same quantities in tournaments, R&D would have to give this ability to all colors. Right now, the way Magic is and has been designed, Blue has a tactical advantage over the others.

The problem isn't in the effect, but in the cost. An appropiately costed brainstorm wouldn't see play simple because then it would be a fair card.

[ESG]

A friend and I tested a "combo killer" deck last night against Reid's Reanimator list. The deck had Thoughtseizes and Vendilion Cliques as disruption, Delver of Secrets to help clock, Edicts for removal, Force, Daze and Spell Pierce, Stifle and Wasteland to smother early plays, Brainstorm and Ponder, and Tombstalker for some extra cheap muscle. And you know what? The deck still couldn't do better than 50-50 in the matchup.

Keep deluding yourselves that there are acceptable answers to Griselbrand. Reanimator was already a strong deck before it was printed, and it can answer or ignore most of the narrow answers people have offered in this thread.

[Star|Scream]

A friend and I tested a "combo killer" deck last night against Reid's Reanimator list. The deck had Thoughtseizes and Vendilion Cliques as disruption, Delver of Secrets to help clock, Edicts for removal, Force, Daze and Spell Pierce, Stifle and Wasteland to smother early plays, Brainstorm and Ponder, and Tombstalker for some extra cheap muscle. And you know what? The deck still couldn't do better than 50-50 in the matchup.

Keep deluding yourselves that there are acceptable answers to Griselbrand. Reanimator was already a strong deck before it was printed, and it can answer or ignore most of the narrow answers people have offered in this thread.

What graveyard hate did you side in?

[Einherjer]

I've just made 3 games vs a Reanimator-list with 4 Griselbrand. That's the one you guys are talking about right?
I lost every G1 and stroke back to a 2-1 all 3 times. Guys! Griselbrand is good! But he is a friggen creature! He isn't uncounterable nor are his enabelers. Calm down!

[Kich867]

I've just made 3 games vs a Reanimator-list with 4 Griselbrand. That's the one you guys are talking about right?
I lost every G1 and stroke back to a 2-1 all 3 times. Guys! Griselbrand is good! But he is a friggen creature! He isn't uncounterable nor are his enabelers. Calm down!

WOooooooooooo! Go you!

Thank god for that. I mean for a second there I thought we might have to play people other than that guy you played some time.

Thanks bro.

[Star|Scream]

WOooooooooooo! Go you!

Thank god for that. I mean for a second there I thought we might have to play people other than that guy you played some time.

Thanks bro.

Nope! Thanks to Phillip the format has stabilized

[Vacrix]

I can sort of agree with this sentiment, but I'd like it so that people wouldn't have to play Blue with Brainstorm to stand a chance of properly managing variance. The only other cards I can think of that give non-Blue decks a chance at seeing lots of cards and controlling draws were printed at least 15 years ago, Mirri's Guile and Sylvan Library (no, Top doesn't count because it is used practically exclusively in Blue control decks and a fake deck that uses Scrying Sheets). I want to see the ability of card selection bled out more. I'd like more things in the vein of M. Guile or Library, but maybe on critters. Try these for instance (ignore my poor ability at power level balancing).

These are interesting ideas. The thing that makes Brainstorm so good though, is that you can respond with it. Therefore, most would argue that these cards do not solve the problem of deck manipulation because its not manipulation per se... its Brainstorm.

- Its an instant so you can respond with it
- You can put cards on top of your library that you do not want, and synergize with a fetchland


Honestly, they would be more likely to print...

(card name) B
Creature
Whenever an opponent draws a card except for the card drawn during the draw step, put a +1/+1 counter on ~ for each card drawn this way.
At the beginning of your upkeep, put a +1/+1 counter on ~ if the opponent has more than 4 cards in hand.
At the beginning of your upkeep, lose X life twice where X is the number of cards in your hand.
1/1
R

Control could NOT play this guy. You are forced to play premature protection in the form of discard unless you want to pay life every turn. I originally costed it as pay X life, and it just seemed like it would be a confidant-esque creature that control would want to play. In this case, paying twice life makes it more suicidal, and therefore more black's flavor. Kinda reminds me of the rack as well, but on crack. Also, if you drop this guy too early, you could have, say 5 cards in hand. Losing 10 life? Hell nah. 4 cards, 8 life? For a 1 drop? I think he's balanced. Would be fun as shit to play this guy a long side Death's Shadow.

EDIT:
(card name) 1G
Creature
Whenever an opponent has 4 or more cards in hand, that player must play with his or her hand revealed until the end of turn.
2/3

So I don't know if I worded this correctly. Say the opponent Brainstorms with only 1 other card in hand, they tick up to 4 cards as the spell is resolving. When that happens, this creatures trigger is met, and the opponent plays with his or her hand revealed for the rest of the turn. Would also apply to hands of 2 cards and Brainstorm. Perhaps its underpowered, but we need some sort of anti-Brainstorm measures to punish players who play it. If WotC can do that, then they won't have to ban it, it will still be a strong card that people like to play with, but they will have to work harder than they do right now.

[Koby]

I've just made 3 games vs a Reanimator-list with 4 Griselbrand. That's the one you guys are talking about right?
I lost every G1 and stroke back to a 2-1 all 3 times. Guys! Griselbrand is good! But he is a friggen creature! He isn't uncounterable nor are his enabelers. Calm down!

Between you and Hanni, I think we can all agree - Cockatrice/MWS is a piece of a shit for testing formats/broken cards/proving anything relevant.

[menace13]

Fellas, don't worry! I have been goldfishing Grisselbrand decks against myself since I needed a competent opponent and I can't seem to not draw the game, ever.


The format is safe.

[SpikeyMikey]

These are interesting ideas. The thing that makes Brainstorm so good though, is that you can respond with it. Therefore, most would argue that these cards do not solve the problem of deck manipulation because its not manipulation per se... its Brainstorm.

- Its an instant so you can respond with it
- You can put cards on top of your library that you do not want, and synergize with a fetchland


Honestly, they would be more likely to print...

(card name) B
Creature
Whenever an opponent draws a card except for the card drawn during the draw step, put a +1/+1 counter on ~ for each card drawn this way.
At the beginning of your upkeep, put a +1/+1 counter on ~ if the opponent has more than 4 cards in hand.
At the beginning of your upkeep, lose X life twice where X is the number of cards in your hand.
1/1
R

Control could NOT play this guy. You are forced to play premature protection in the form of discard unless you want to pay life every turn. I originally costed it as pay X life, and it just seemed like it would be a confidant-esque creature that control would want to play. In this case, paying twice life makes it more suicidal, and therefore more black's flavor. Kinda reminds me of the rack as well, but on crack. Also, if you drop this guy too early, you could have, say 5 cards in hand. Losing 10 life? Hell nah. 4 cards, 8 life? For a 1 drop? I think he's balanced. Would be fun as shit to play this guy a long side Death's Shadow.

EDIT:
(card name) 1G
Creature
Whenever an opponent has 4 or more cards in hand, that player must play with his or her hand revealed until the end of turn.
2/3

So I don't know if I worded this correctly. Say the opponent Brainstorms with only 1 other card in hand, they tick up to 4 cards as the spell is resolving. When that happens, this creatures trigger is met, and the opponent plays with his or her hand revealed for the rest of the turn. Would also apply to hands of 2 cards and Brainstorm. Perhaps its underpowered, but we need some sort of anti-Brainstorm measures to punish players who play it. If WotC can do that, then they won't have to ban it, it will still be a strong card that people like to play with, but they will have to work harder than they do right now.

Your Brainstorm hate-bear doesn't work. SBE's don't check in the middle of the resolution of spells. It would check before Brainstorm and after Brainstorm, but not halfway through.

You (and I'm speaking generally now, not at Vacrix) are perfect examples of why democracy is a terrible idea. You see a complex situation, with tens of thousands of little moving pieces, and you try and boil it down to 1 or 2 simple points that you can comprehend rather than trying to understand the whole of the thing. And you don't understand that changing one piece doesn't just change the pieces most closely related to it, it sends ripples throughout the whole thing. It's like Wizards changing their design standards in order to make the game "more fun" by eliminating non-interactive pieces like land destruction and countermagic and creating what have generally been unbalanced, "unfun" Standard formats in doing so.

[Julian23]

Your Brainstorm hate-bear doesn't work. SBE's don't check in the middle of the resolution of spells. It would check before Brainstorm and after Brainstorm, but not halfway through.

While I don't think any of these would see competitive play, they still work. State-Based Effects have nothing to do with these cards, just triggered abilities. When the condition of a trigger is met, even during the resolution of a spell, the trigger is put on the stack right before the next time a player receives priority.

[Ignithas_]

I've just made 3 games vs a Reanimator-list with 4 Griselbrand. That's the one you guys are talking about right?
I lost every G1 and stroke back to a 2-1 all 3 times. Guys! Griselbrand is good! But he is a friggen creature! He isn't uncounterable nor are his enabelers. Calm down!

And now please tell us which deck you were playing and how your SB looked like. I can always win against the strongest deck when I play it's nemesis deck or pack 15 hate cards against this strategy.

[thefringthing]

As long as we're designing cards to hose Brainstorm, I think Chains of Mephistopheles on a two-drop flash creature would be pretty cool. They'd have to simplify the effect somewhat to get it on a card these days though.

Chains Guy 1B
Flash.
If a player would draw a card except the first one he or she draws in his or her draw step each turn, that player discards a card instead. If the player discards a card this way, he or she draws a card.
1/1

[catmint]

Are some people here really complaining about reanimator now?

The deck has always been strong and got a little better with Griselbrand. Still countermagic and graveyard hate works exactly like it always has.

No Griselbrand deck is a danger to the format.

There is movement in the format due to new cards, which is perfectly fine... The Meta will adapt and new cards will change things again. That's the beauty of the game. Everyone not beeing able to deal with that and whining/crying should think about how the format would look like if there are no changes....pretty boring!

[Rune]

No Griselbrand deck is a danger to the format.

Well, this is written in bold, so I guess it must be true. Thank heavens, I was really getting worried!

whining/crying

Wait, I think I've heard this before..

Currently playing:
Sneak Attack

Ohhh....




Reanimator isn't a big problem. Take away their sideboard Show and Tells and the deck becomes significantly less powerful, because it will have to actually deal with graveyard hate. Someone has probably already mentioned this, but the problem is that there's very little interaction with Show and Tell now. Your means of interation are basically limited to fighting SnT when it's on the stack. Before Griselbrand, there was plenty of ways to interact. Progenitus could easily be either raced, edicted or wrathed, and it mostly sucked in conjunction with Sneak Attack. Most Legacy decks have maindeck ways to deal with Emrakul. How exactly do you adapt to SnT+Griselbrand (without making your deck suck against everything else)? The effective hate cards are so few. There's Humility for an actual hoser. Sower/Gilded Drake are reasonable - only available to the color that could interact in the first place, though. The "steal" effects are very hit or miss because of multiple lines of attack (Sneak Attack/Reanimation). Ensnaring Bridge will win if your opponent is a drooling moron. Pithing Needle/Revoker if you want to use sideboard slots on cards that will only do something 50% of the time, and will still leave the 7/7 in play. Did I miss any of the amazing options we have available for adapting to Griselbrand? Other combo decks, like Dredge and storm, have to play through tons of hate every round, while Show and Tell decks completely sidestep it in such a retarded fashion.

[Piceli89]

Curious how Anderson, Thompson and Nelson have all soundly admitted that Griselbrand should be banned in those silly SCG "interviewsenings". Curious how to not admit that a resolved reanimation spell or cheating spell that puts GB into play is close to 80% win. Drawing cards is the strongest ability in Eternal formats, period. Drawing chocks of seven equals to win. Your opponent has invested all its resources (cards in hand) to stop you as you did, and a single resolved spell puts you where you started. You find yourself playing with 7 cards against 0. You're going to draw other 7 every turn. Removals are realistically useless. So is Karakas.
It is analogue, in a certain way, to a topdecked Jace on an empty board state and with no cards in hand in a blue-based midrange mirror. Difference is, Jace in this case costs 1, 2, or 3, digs a little more, and also happens to be a robust win condition.

I was among the ones who thought that Terminus and Entreat the Angels would have swept the format, and I was wrong: the cards that tend to affect it the most are not the ones used as defensive tools in control shells, they're those who push combo decks to further brokenness. Format has quite adapted to big cards impacting on legacy at the time like Snapcaster Mage and Jace did just by shaping itself in a new form. This is realistically possible because they create advantage of a certain relevance that doesn't happen to win the game *immediately*. While neither Griselbrand does literally, there's no chance for the opponent to match you once it is resolved- maybe once on 100 times.
I really fail to see how the metagame can adapt harmoniously to a fatty that re-fills hand on demand. I mean, how can you beat that?
How will you ever prefer something else, given they'll print other cards, than a creature that gives you full cards constantly?
I always hope they S&T me Emrakul rather than Griselbrand. This should say something.

Yet there are some people here with little to no sense of judgement (or perhaps it's just because they're the ones to play the deck?) that would carry on endlessly in their "Griselbrand is fine" argument. It's not a shame to come up and say "ok, Griselbrand is grossily overpowered, that's why I play it." No blame.
Just, stop pretending what's undeniable.

EDIT: Also, granted that once GB touches ground, it becomes pretty downhill from there, how am I supposed to prevent that if I don't play disruptive decks? Even black disruption feels pretty unreliable to fight this kind of combo decks (as it has always been given BS and topdeck exists, btw), when the other decks of the format are starting to play Top, Counterbalance, Spell Pierce (maindeck) and Flusterstorm.
A concrete effect of Griselbrand being at the top is that only blue based decks and other combo decks stand a chance to match it. The snake bites its tail. Although Maverick can fight it pretty well, on the other side it is easily pushed out by Miracle control.

[menace13]

You have!!!! to ban the card from the deck that Isn't 4 out of 8 top 8 slots every week at SGC events, because you know, it sidesteps hate and is a stupid, stupid deck.

Please get rid of Show And Tell due to its months long reign at the top.

Oh, wait.... that's Delver, Maverick, and Stoneblade. Those decks do that....

But just in case you don't want to wait a few months to see if it will even match the other decks in placings we can just go shit-in-pants-happy-deluded-bat shit-crazy now!

[Piceli89]

You have!!!! to ban the card from the deck that Isn't 4 out of 8 top 8 slots every week at SGC events, because you know, it sidesteps hate and is a stupid, stupid deck.

Please get rid of Show And Tell due to its months long rain at the top.

Oh, wait.... that's Delver, Maverick, and Stoneblade. Those decks do that....

But just in case you don't want to wait a few months to see if it will even match the other decks in placings we can just go shit-in-pants-happy-deluded-bat shit-crazy now!

Since it's just not that much time that AVR has been printed and it's too early to draw proper conclusions on the format, I think ban are likely to happen in September. Still, I foresee that these 3 months will see Griselbrand ramping furtherly in the top8s until it occupies at least 3 slots in the majority of tournaments. Perhaps we won't get to Survival-era numbers because format is quite disruptive and RUG delver is another serious contender, but the diversity will be reduced to those, Miracle control and some Mavericks left. Stoneblade's powerlevel is ridiculously below those ones', won't last for too much.

Also: even if they were to ban S&T, Griselbrand could still be cheated via reanimation. Although S&T puts costraint on future prints and enables broken things, in this case it is the fatty to be the real problem. At least, though, Reanimator is way more susceptible to hate in the post-board games.