[DTB] Sneak Attack

[catmint]

Sure ,Through the Breach is the best option in a meta with a lot of Reanimator and Show and Tell. It was not that important for my current meta so not in the SB so far, but Pithing Needle out of Reanimators SB is a very good argument.

Concerning "Full control". What I mean with that is you are only casting cantrips to find hate and leave mana open for counterspells. If you lock them out with cage or "blow them out" with surgical extraction you do have a lot more time to win.

I don't know the exact SB plan of Reanimator, but them needing discard, bounce and needle I suppose they do not have space for surgical extractions which means we can keept the intuations in to support the quick win when needed.

[whienot]

Strictly regarding the mirror and Reanimator, is Through the Breach better than Bribery?

[Deez_Naughts]

Strictly regarding the mirror and Reanimator, is Through the Breach better than Bribery?

Against Re-animator Bribery does not work well with Cage. Also, by the time it comes online, they will have probably pitched dudes to the bin.

Against the mirror, it's ok I guess, but I don't like the double UU.

[Water_Wizard]

Fight over their entomb's, careful studies, and Thoughseize if they target themselves

You think it's better to fight over then enabler as opposed to the reanimation spell?

The current reanimator lists are running more enablers than reanimation spells, so I figured it would be better to fight the reanimation spells.

Careful Study allows filtering, so it may be best to fight it. Because enablers are played before reanimation spells, Daze/Spell Pierce are also more effective.

This is more of a strategy discussion, but I thought it was better to let them bin a creature and then attempt to battle the reanimation.

Thoughts?

[rxavage]

You think it's better to fight over then enabler as opposed to the reanimation spell?

The current reanimator lists are running more enablers than reanimation spells, so I figured it would be better to fight the reanimation spells.

Careful Study allows filtering, so it may be best to fight it. Because enablers are played before reanimation spells, Daze/Spell Pierce are also more effective.

This is more of a strategy discussion, but I thought it was better to let them bin a creature and then attempt to battle the reanimation.

Thoughts?

It depends on the lists but generally they will run more reanimation spells than discard, but that may not be so now. Hitting their Careful Studies with REBs is fun, they can't dig for answers/bin fatties. It really comes down to the fact that if you lose the counter war over the reanimation spell they have that fatty now as opposed to binning it then having to resolve the reanimation spell after exhausting their resources. I guess you have to pick your battle..

I'm really considering going with 3 relic 3 surgical extraction in the sb as reanimator and uw miracle are gaining momentum. The extractions are versatile and can help bait or remove counter/removal(terminus). I've gone to a counter-suite of 4 fow, 3misD, 3flusterstorm too.

[Koby]

Do people really have trouble against the Miracle deck? Aside from the cards that lock out combat (Peacekeepr, humility, Ensnaring Bridge, etc) what clock does Miracles put on us? So long as we resolve Sneak Attack we win.

Any deck that doesn't put pressure on Sneak Show to act sooner than it should is going to lose to a resolved Sneak Attack. Even Karakas can't beat an active Sneak Attack.

[Water_Wizard]

I've been playing 4 Relics. I was on 4 GDC, but I ran into an unfortunate situation against AggroLoam and LoamPox and I decided I needed to be able to remove that graveyard as opposed to preventing creatures/spells from coming into play/being cast out of it.

Regarding my counter-suite, I'm running 4 Spell Pierce / 4 FOW / 2 Misdirection (0 Daze / Flusterstorm). I'm also running 4 Brainstorm / 4 Ponder / 2 Preordain / 1 Vendilion Clique (0 Intuition). The Vendilion Clique is "experimental" and I'm considering it a flex slot with the possibilities of Intution or Wipe Away. Overall, I like Clique because it has implications against Control and Combo. I feel S&S does well against the "fair" decks and the Clique can help disrupt combo / start a clock and it serves as a "must counter" against Control. Interestingly, if you eot Intuition, good Control players will let your Intuition resolve and fight the card you select with it (the exception being if you are going for 3X Lingering Souls). However, when you bring Clique into the match, they must counter the Clique or lose their FOW and face a clock (plus give up valuable information about their hand).

My sideboard is also pretty crazy at the moment:
4 Relic of Progenitus
3 Blood Moon
2 Through the Breach
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Echoing Truth
1 Wipeaway
2 Submerge

The most notable "absence" in my sideboard is the lack of REB/Pyroblast. The reason I didn't include REB/PB is because I was getting "counterspell overload." When I used to run Daze/Intuition, I had easy sideboard options during games 2/3. However, now I don't think the sideboard slot is worth the marginal value of bringing in a REB/PB over a Spell Pierce or Misdirection.

Against RUG, I bring in the Blood Moons, because it is a "must counter," as if it lands, it turns off all of their Dazes/Spell Pierces. Against RUG, I think - 1 Vendilion Clique, -1 Lotus Petal, -1 Griselbrand, +3 Blood Moon is appropriate given my list. What do you think?

[Water_Wizard]

My list, for reference, is pretty standard:
3 Island
1 Mountain
3 Volcanic Island
3 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
7 Fetch
(19 Land)

4 Lotus Petal

4 Grisel
4 Emrakul

4 Sneak Attack
4 Show and Tell

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Preordain

4 Spell Pierce
4 Force of Will
2 Misdirection

1 Vendilion Clique (Flex slot - could be Intuition / Wipe Away / Misdirection / Flusterstorm / Daze)

[Koby]

Emrakul is less important than Griselbrand against RUG, but it's semantics really. They can't beat either one, and we lost to Gilded Drake. /nitpick

[Water_Wizard]

Yes, good point. I live in fear of the stifled draw 7, so that is my reason for cutting Griselbrand. Thoughts on the June 20th bannings? Sneak and Show did not do well at last weekend's SCG (despite, reportedly, being well represented). However, the recent emergence of Reid Duke's Reanimator lists running 4 Griselbrands may put his demon-head on the chopping block.

I think WotC will wait on Griselbrand. It's rare they ban creatures and there are certainly answers in the current meta game (albeit, some have been slow to deploy them).

[rxavage]

Do people really have trouble against the Miracle deck? Aside from the cards that lock out combat (Peacekeepr, humility, Ensnaring Bridge, etc) what clock does Miracles put on us? So long as we resolve Sneak Attack we win.

Any deck that doesn't put pressure on Sneak Show to act sooner than it should is going to lose to a resolved Sneak Attack. Even Karakas can't beat an active Sneak Attack.

The first time I played against it I lost do to play mistakes, the second time I faced the deck I 2-0'd. The deck gives so much time to sculpt your hand against it its absurd but I have a feeling this match-up will become a bitch in the future. My suggestion of using SE on terminus was just something I threw out there without much thought, if you're extracting a terminus you're probably going to lose. But I'm still hard pressed to include extractions in my 75, 4 relics are cutting it for now.



@WaterWizard
Also, I'd side out an Emmy before Gris but that would also depend on the matchup and what else was being sided.

[Koby]

Friend: "Want to playtest more games with Sneak Show?"
Me: "No, I'm sick of playing"
Friend: "Aren't you playing this at the GP?"
Me: "Yes, 10 min of game play 40 min of downtime. I don't actually like interacting in Legacy right now."



I really like the 2 Preordain build right now. It definitely makes the deck "tick". I would be inclined to push it to 3 Preordain too, but that makes sideboard plans really clunky. Here's my proposed SB:

3 Blood Moon
4 Grafdigger's Cage
3 REB/pyro mix
2 Echoing Truth
1 Wipe Away (might swap the numbers of bounce, altho I doubt i bringin Wipe Away against just Karakas)
2 Through the Breach

Maindeck I might swap 1 Misdirection for 1 Spell Pierce - have to test against Reanimator more to figure out for sure.

[Esper3k]

I've been playing 2 Preordain / 1 Intuition myself. As awesome as Intuition is, my issue with it was that:

1) I didn't feel like 8 cantrips was enough to consistently dig with on Turns 1 & 2.
2) Intuition was slow and sometimes I'd be too far behind for a Show & Tell to save me.

It's pretty refreshing to be playing a deck that pretty much ignores combat math & Mother of Runes.

[rxavage]

I've been playing 2 Preordain / 1 Intuition myself. As awesome as Intuition is, my issue with it was that:

1) I didn't feel like 8 cantrips was enough to consistently dig with on Turns 1 & 2.
2) Intuition was slow and sometimes I'd be too far behind for a Show & Tell to save me.

It's pretty refreshing to be playing a deck that pretty much ignores combat math & Mother of Runes.

I used to feel the same way until whiffing on the preordains more than I prefered. Intuition gets what you need in hand at instant speed, which allows for eot--> win the following turn. Whether you're going for the wincon, enabler, or protection the only thing you have to fear is Extirpate or Surgical Extraction. Maybe I'm crazy but I was running 2 preordains while everyone was running 2 intuition and now I switch to Intuition and... well you get the idea. It's also possible I haven't done nearly enough testing. Same thing with the single Wipe Away I put in the main, I never seem to find it when I need it and it could probably be better served as another cantrip. I like Flusterstorm over pierce, personal preference.

[Esper3k]

I used to feel the same way until whiffing on the preordains more than I prefered. Intuition gets what you need in hand at instant speed, which allows for eot--> win the following turn. Weather you're going for the wincon, enabler, or protection the only thing you have to fear is Extirpate or Surgical Extraction. Maybe I'm crazy but I was running 2 preordains while everyone was running 2 intuition and now I switch to Intuition and... well you get the idea. It's also possible I haven't done nearly enough testing. Same thing with the single Wipe Away I put in the main, I never seem to find it when I need it and it could probably be better served as another cantrip. I like Flusterstorm over pierce, personal preference.

Yeah, I started out playing 3x Intuition and found myself opening with 1-2 and wishing it was something faster. I felt Intuition adds to our consistency, but is slower. To be fair, every time I Preordain, I curse that it's not Brainstorm or Ponder :)

I also like Flusterstorm - I play those instead of Spell Pierces as well. If you're wanting to win counter wars, Flusterstorm is simply better than Spell Pierce. For non-creature hate you might be Spell Piercing, I just run more bounce to deal with it.

[Water_Wizard]

How much bounce do you run main? One wipe away?

The flusterstorm/spell pierce question, we know the pros/cons (flusterstorm is better at winning a counter war, while spell pierce hits planeswalkers, artifacts, and enchantments).

The main reason I run Pierce is Liliana. Even with bounce, they still hold priority and make you sacrifice a creature or discard, so you're losing 2:1 if you use a bounce spell.

If the purpose of flusterstorm is to win counter wars, why not just run REB/PB main? Or Dispel?

I understand Flusterstorm has the ability to hit instant and sorceries, which is nice if you are playing against discard and counter spells.

[Final Fortune]

If the purpose of flusterstorm is to win counter wars, why not just run REB/PB main? Or Dispel?

I understand Flusterstorm has the ability to hit instant and sorceries, which is nice if you are playing against discard and counter spells.

I tried, without Flusterstorm or Spell Pierce Storm decks will just roll you.

[Esper3k]

If the purpose of flusterstorm is to win counter wars, why not just run REB/PB main? Or Dispel?

I understand Flusterstorm has the ability to hit instant and sorceries, which is nice if you are playing against discard and counter spells.

That's a really good point. I kind of like Flusterstorm over REB/PB since it's blue and pitches to Force (and most of the time, it's just as good at stopping countermagic). On top of that, I'm oftentimes fetching my basic Islands out and don't necessarily have R open (easier to protect if you have Island, Island, Sol Land in play, for example).

So for me, it's the combination of being easier to use than REB/PB, more powerful than Spell Pierce for stopping countermagic, but still more flexible than Dispel.

[Water_Wizard]

Esper3k - very good point! I am also always fetching basic Islands first in order to cantrip, so we most likely will have more U available than R.

I haven't faced very many storm decks lately (might just be my meta). However, a few weeks ago when I was facing Belcher a lot, I ran Flusterstorm without question (I ran a 2/1 Flusterstorm/Spell Pierce split with 3 Daze and 0 Misdirections - I also ran 2 BEB from the board). However, even against Belcher, Flusterstorm put me in some tricky situations because I had to decide if they were trying to cast Empty the Warrens or Goblin Charbelcher. Against Charbelcher, a Flusterstorm isn't doing me much good.

Anyway, I digress.

[Esper3k]

Against Belcher, I think most of the time it's safest to stop them when they're playing the last accelerant to get to 4 mana.

Sure, you can try and go for the blowout, but if they cast the wrong finisher, you're dead.