[Deck] The Rock

[damionblackgear]

Mr blackgear, I disagree with your view of tarmogoyf. A quick goyf is the most efficient way to pressure a combo deck that wants to burning wish or dump 30 creatures into play. You need to have disruption backed by a clock to bar any chance at winning against these non interactive decks.

Turn one discard, turn two goyf, turn three teeg is about as good as you can do against combo. Waiting to drop and grow a knight is just going to let them set up even more.

I was actually thinking of Elves when I was writing that. Against the decks that want to Burning Wish to into critters, We're too slow as it is (they race pure aggro decks). I'd rather have a Thalia or the like compared to a Goyf. If I had to have a beater, I'd actually rather have Stoneforge. You can at least make an attempt to Batterskull yourself back into the game after the storm passes (no pun intended).

I'd agree that a quick Goyf is your best bet against combo except Thalia exists. She's a slower clock than Goyf but she also slows them and you're more concerned with gaining the time than anything else. We're quick on an aggro start but they're faster.

*For Elves, you just want to kill their elves so both creatures are pretty bad as The Insect laughs at either's real use, holding Jitte.

[lavafrogg]

Elves is a glass canon and as long as anyone hates it out they won't win. Game one can be solved with the same scenario as I used last time.

T1 discard
T2 goyf
T3 GSZ to goyf

Then depending on what else you have you can take a victory from combos greedy hands. Discard+swords+wasteland+beats is pretty hard for elves to beat.

Maverick can get away without goyf due to teeg and main board hatebears, which we don't run. They also will drop a creature turns 1,2,3,4 and the damage adds up.

[Mirrislegend]

Goyf only does ONE thing, that nothing else does better. He provides power relative to speed. Not max power over all, not max speed, and obviously no utility or long game threat. Just power relative to speed.

This shifts his relevance (in this deck) greatly. He's good against decks that play only the most efficient creatures, regardless of raw power (RUG). He's good where speed is the single most important thing (some combo decks). In every other situation, I'd rather have Stoneforge or KotR. That's why I always trim Goyf.

btw lavafrogg, that is NOT how you beat elves. If you seriously think that, you haven't played against it in ages. Across the table, I watched it go off turn 2, I watched it go off through tons of disruption, I watched it go off without a hitch. That deck is not to be underestimated. Luckily, my Mav hate (Zealous Persecution) hits Elves hard.

[lavafrogg]

Sorry for any misconception on my scenarios. I was refering to game one with minimal prior knowlege about the deck you were playing against. After board you can bring in any amount of hate to interact with any deck, especially glass cannons.

Goyf allows you to interact with your opponent to the fullest for what he requires in mana and deck space.

[damionblackgear]

Elves is a glass canon and as long as anyone hates it out they won't win. Game one can be solved with the same scenario as I used last time.

T1 discard
T2 goyf
T3 GSZ to goyf

Then depending on what else you have you can take a victory from combos greedy hands. Discard+swords+wasteland+beats is pretty hard for elves to beat.

Maverick can get away without goyf due to teeg and main board hatebears, which we don't run. They also will drop a creature turns 1,2,3,4 and the damage adds up.

I'm afraid we're differing more and more as this conversation goes on. Elves may be a glass canon (a plexiglas cannon!) but it's still a bad matchup for us (it's definitely in their favor). Under few circumstances is discard, Goyf, Goyf enough to win (their draw must have been really bad). They can (and typically do) win on turn 3 before that second Goyf would have become active.

I also find very rare instances where Wasteland actually become relevant. Most of the time I see it, the elf player is 'going off' and it's a Bust of random mana to allow them to continue. They may Crop Rotate for another 1 later. Even then, Wasteland, is not the highest priority since I probably have 2 or 3 lands in play.

I also haven't seem a Maverick with Teeg in the main in a long time. Maybe it's just me and the tournaments I play in (I admit I try to stick to 6+ rounder's at this point for family reasons). I do see Thalia who is justifiable based on the fact that the deck is almost all creatures in a format of spells. Occasionally, I'll see Aven Mind Censor but that's not all that often (Also, not a bear).

Lastly, we do work. We don't need the hatebears in the main. Proof? I won a SCG (a.k.a. large FNM) a little over a month ago with the deck using a single Goyf meant as a Large body to get with GSZ@2. My only hatebears (Teeg and Thalia) were in the board. I dodged Combo all day but I still don't have many issues with the 'new' combo (non-storm combo - I'm putting Elves in the storm category)

-Edit- I take too long to type things out. You responded already.

[Sughayyer]

I made 3-1 today: Burn 2-1, Burn 2-0, GW 0-2 (first game out of luck and second one out of my own stupidity) and merfolks 2-0.

I naver had such an easy match against burn with most of my other builds. :D
decks present were: TES, Merfolks, Burn (x2), GW, Spiral Tide, BW Nofriends, BW Stax

[f|i[p]]

@Sughayyer
Congratulations on the 3-1... as well as your 2-0 vs burn...
-----------

Agreed!

Combo elf match up has always been difficult for me... And I have been playing rock type decks for quite a long time...and I still see it as a bad batch up... discard and stp may buy you a turn, sometimes it doesn't. but if does buy you some time, you'd usually have to deed them away.. but I really see this a bad match up, and it gets worse post board as the local combo elf player here brings in 4 leylines in.

Ethersworn cannonist might slow them a bit for you to win..

but I never saw the scenario of discard, goyf , then gsz to goyf ...then win...I also don't understand wasteland....

But yeah, I think a lot of people underestimate combo elves, when they use rock type decks...or they just don't have experience vs combo elves at all (or perhaps a good combo elves player)...

[lavafrogg]

Lol, I'm not sure how we got around to talking about exclusively elves but Whateves. We have sideboards for combo decks like elves to help us in the match. My point is that before board goyf gives you the best chance to steal a game from them and post board it gives them less time to recover from our hosers.

With the alternatives being SFM or more ooze, tarmogoyf fills more holes in the deck in problem matchups. He provides a faster clock and earlier on board interaction. For mid to late game antics we don't need SFM because we run the mini planeswalker(knight) and should be packing some real walkers of our own.

It is my opinion that rock is a mid range deck, goyf helps the aggo plan against control decks and the control plan against aggro decks.

Focusing on elves: it is a bad matchup. Just like other storm/fast combo decks. My point is goyf provides speed to steal game ones from these decks. It increases win percentages across the board with no downside. Against maverick the only thing bigger is a knight and you also play those.

With my discard/goyf/goyf scenario: those are five cards from your hand against an elves deck. You will have 4-5 more cards available to interact with them and hopefully you can sneak a win with some timely discard, swords, vindicate/pulse or wastelands(on an exposed gaes cradle). With goyfs beating in they will have to start blocking or go off. It's a better plan than just losing game one.

Edit: you can also waste a GSZ for zero dryad arbor.

Mirri- what the hell can anyone do against elves if they go off on turn two? Shit happens. And I am also not taking out kotr so you don't have to compare goyf to knight. If anything compare knight to SFM in that they both take over the mid to late game and do next to nothing on the early turns or when the best deck in the format is having its way with you(rug can't deal with a resolved goyf, knight cost 3 and can be wastelanded off the correct colors, stifled off three lands or dazed when you finally get there). What is your plan against elves game one? Lose? Get a jitte active by turn four only to have then wish/zenith for a natralise on legs?

P.s. want a good sweeper? Play infest. It is such a house against elves/tribal and maverick. We are also pretty much the only deck that can play it.

[Thorondor]

concerning goyf: i rather play first turn confi/stoneforge with mox diamond and then knight/lilli/maelstrom pulse... than first turn goyf into something....

I enjoy diamondblackgears list, since the dumb plan: "playing a big creature and go attack" is kind of boring. I love things that do something beside attacking.


concerning elves: at the moment I consider one darkblast (as fifth removal) main against elves and maverick. It also has synergy with library/sdt.

[Sughayyer]

I think in all that talk we lost the focus. It all started with Goyf/no Goyf discussion, and it turned in "beating elves 101" (ok terrible joke).

On the thing about elves/combo: most of rock players now shun hymn to tourach, but it is not only a great tempo card, it is also a powerful disruption tool. It can wreck combo's hands. (But, yes, againt elves I board it out, since I have more efficient solutions against them).

About goyf, it was already explained here: if you run the "toolbox" version of junk, you don't need it - you can fetch functional creatures, and leave the beating to other creatures you might have (Ooze, KoTR). But if you run a more traditional build, goyf is way better sicne it performs various roles.

On a different issue: What I'm saying now may be utter stupidity, but wasn't Rock real strenght it's simplicity? Wreck hand, play big fat guy, and you have all the removal backing it up for you? After trying various lists, I returned to that premise (as I posted twice) and it turns out that it's the build that gives me more results.

Hope I'm helping and not just being an annoyance :)

[sdematt]

Well, it depends. If you have a build that does the plan of "hand disruption, big guys, beat face, remove things" then yes, you'll put up some good results.

I plan on playing this at SCG Seattle:

3 Marsh Flats
1 Windswept Heath
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Bayou
2 Scrubland
1 Savannah
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Maze of Ith
1 Karakas
1 Dryad Arbor
3 Wasteland

4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Tarmogoyf
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Qasali Pridemage
4 Dark Confidant

3 Thoughtseize
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Duress (Sneak and Show, etc.)

4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Sylvan Library
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Life form the Loam

--BOARD--

3 Surgical Extraction
2 Extirpate
1 Pernicious Deed
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Perish
2 Dread of Night
2 Choke
2 Timely Reinforcements

I've moved EE to the board in favour of the Duress for more disruption. Merfolk might make a small comeback, so I've kept EE in the 75 as well, same as Deed. I've opted for Perish instead of Virtue in case of Elves, and a whopping 5 pieces of grave-hate since a) 43 Lands won the last SCG event, b) Reanimator is the deck positioned to beat Sneak and Show.

I've briefly considered cutting 1 Maelstrom Pulse and 1 something for the 2 EE in the main, opening 2-3 slots in the board for more combo hate. Thoughts?

Timely is for the UR Burn/ RUG Delver matches, and I've got 6 slots against Maverick.

Thoughts? Pieces of tech I'm missing?

-Matt

[Mirrislegend]

Well, it depends. If you have a build that does the plan of "hand disruption, big guys, beat face, remove things" then yes, you'll put up some good results.

I plan on playing this at SCG Seattle:

3 Marsh Flats
1 Windswept Heath
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Bayou
2 Scrubland
1 Savannah
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Maze of Ith
1 Karakas
1 Dryad Arbor
3 Wasteland

4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Tarmogoyf
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Qasali Pridemage
4 Dark Confidant

3 Thoughtseize
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Duress (Sneak and Show, etc.)

4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Sylvan Library
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Life form the Loam

--BOARD--

3 Surgical Extraction
2 Extirpate
1 Pernicious Deed
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Perish
2 Dread of Night
2 Choke
2 Timely Reinforcements

I've moved EE to the board in favour of the Duress for more disruption. Merfolk might make a small comeback, so I've kept EE in the 75 as well, same as Deed. I've opted for Perish instead of Virtue in case of Elves, and a whopping 5 pieces of grave-hate since a) 43 Lands won the last SCG event, b) Reanimator is the deck positioned to beat Sneak and Show.

I've briefly considered cutting 1 Maelstrom Pulse and 1 something for the 2 EE in the main, opening 2-3 slots in the board for more combo hate. Thoughts?

Timely is for the UR Burn/ RUG Delver matches, and I've got 6 slots against Maverick.

Thoughts? Pieces of tech I'm missing?

-Matt

I'm a big fan of your ability to be aggro and apply pressure while keeping fair control of the board. Your SB confuses the heck outta me though. How do you beat Sneak and Show? How do you beat combo? I believe SBs be shoring up bad MUs, instead of just carrying flex slots

[Thorondor]

my tech would be:
-2 Duress, add some discard in SB
-1 GSZ or -1 Loam

+3 Mox Diamond ;-)

against combo he has 8 1cc discard main and after SB surgical/extirpate and a hopefully kind of fast clock, this must be enough or game over.

But the list looks weak against U/R delver burn or RUG or just BURN.

dunno, have you tested these matchups and how did they go for u?

[damionblackgear]

I'm out of the Elves conversation. It's looping in circles now.

Matt, I would actually cut a GSZ from your list (Regarding EE). You have more targets than I do but, only 2 real singles (Arbor and Pridemage). I would theorize that there is enough consistency from your multiples to warrant 2 GSZ... possibly even 1 but I wouldn't advise that without a good testing session). You also have more Library manipulation (second Sylvan).

I would also switch Dread to Zealous Persecution as it's useful in more match-ups and also benefits you offensively as well. It's still strong against the Maverick match and you typically only need one shot to clear some of the clutter against them.

Lastly, Have you given any thought to Fight Bear (Ulvenwald Tracker)? Matched with your Garruck it gives you a stream of either 2/2's to fight with (pseudo Lavamancer) or deathtouch 1/1's (Kills anything). Just a thought, I don't know if it's too cute but, I've found that it's great vs Aggro (Especially Merfolk) and Mid-Range.

[lavafrogg]

Lol, elves discussion was awesome but it all started with the debate about tarmogoyf being a 3-4 of instead of a 0-1 of.

Fight bear is awesome! I don't know how I have never seen that card before but I feel like it is a must have for GSZ lists as a 1 of.

I actually think Matt should increase his reliance on GSZ in his list and squeeze some tutor targets into his board, like fight bear. "multiple" copies of teeg, witness, ooze or tracker are a boon for any deck, especially rock. GSZ might be the strongest green spell for the near future, we should play it.

As for the toolbox version of rock, it still needs goyf, if you remember the non combo versions of survival: they just fetched and played more goyfs.... It is effective.

New question: why is volrath's stronghold left out of everyone's list? Regrowing beaters and pridemages every turn seems pretty win to me.

[Arsenal]

If you're going to be a GSZ deck, isn't Maverick just better at that point? More consistent manabase, you can run double green and double white stuff if you really want without worrying about mana considerations, you still get to run 4x Wasteland, etc...

[lavafrogg]

Arsenal- some maverick lists are dropping GSZ and running more hate bears and fauna shaman to combat the rise of combo. Due to our discard, we dot have to rely on other hatebears to give us a chance against combo. Also, with goyf, you can run a -x/-x sweeper and the only cards you have to worry about are knights, the single ooze they run, and equipment. It still is a lot but it helps.

At that point it almost becomes and ooze war and with discard + GSZ you have a chance to win!

[Arsenal]

If Maverick is moving away from GSZ, then I think they're making a huge mistake as GSZ gives Maverick consistency and answers (1-ofs to deal with various situations) that Green has only dreamed of prior to the printing of GSZ. Take away GSZ and Maverick is just a smattering of Green/White good creatures; GSZ is the glue that holds that deck together, imo.

[Mirrislegend]

For reference, discard + Extirpate effects does not beat non-storm combo.

I have 2 Teeg in my SB, with 3 GSZ MD, and 4 Surgical in my SB, and I still feel unprepared for combo sometimes. I feel sdematt's list is WAY lacking in that arena

[lavafrogg]

Matt's metagame has always been less combo more maverick(and by more I mean all) and he devotes his sideboard accordingly.