Again, it depends on the build. Tarnished Citadel deals three damage to you, and that can add up - especially if you have a slow start. Paradise benefits more accelerated starts because the 'return' clause on it is negligible when you consider you'll be tearing through half your deck in a single turn.Originally Posted by Avatar of Shadow
Citadel is worse in grinder games that necessitate tapping it for colored mana each turn.
@K1k1, Hokus and the other german players:
How exactly is german metagame?
I liked the Quadlazer, but maybe a 'hybrid' list (like Hollywood's) is more appropriated to brazilian meta, or even a combo build.
How do Quadlazer is against combo decks, like Sneak and Show and Storm-based?
K1w1*
There are pretty standard decks. Maverick, Canadian, Sneak Show, U/W Miracle, Reanimator, Dredge, UR Delver, Storm, BUG Control. And some random decks like MUD, Elves, Goblins, Esper etc..
I also thought about adding a single Dread Return in this deck.
Sneak Show is a joke without Griselbrand. You can easily race Emrakul. But Griselbrand = GG, Game 2.
And Storm depends in how many cabal therapies are in you grave to destroy the hand.
It's in your favour.
K1w1
@ Hokus: Tell me if i'm wrong.
My colors are... ZONK!
You haven't any colors. You play Dredge.
You love games, which are unfair. You hate Reanimator & NicFit.
At good days, you destroy everything. At bad days,
you draw Narcomoebas. But the most important thing:
Everybody hates you!
I mistyped your nick, sorry xD
But if this is the metagame, it's not that different from here, I just wonder if the gain in consistency is worth the little loss in speed (hybrid/combo builds x Quadlazer).
I also like the 13th land in the main deck, 12 lands have brought a lot of awkward mulligans to me.
The single DR over the 4th Ichorid has been nice to me, as a way to diversify our threats, and also as a 5th sac-outlet.
With the Sneak and Show comeback, do you think is worth playing a Blazing Archon? I mean, they don't have any way to deal with him, and it can be useful against Elves as well.
LEDless isn't as consistent as LED Dredge if you just cut Tireless Tribe, Faithless Looting isn't as much of a priority in LEDless as it is in LED Dredge and you're only playing 2 to 3 copies as mana inefficient Careful Studies.
So, I went to the GPT Trial yesterday and here's a small report from the top of my head. 20 people showed up, so it was five rounds with a cut to Top8.
I played K1W1s latest Quadlazer List (74/75, -1x Golgari Thug, +1x Darkblast).
Round 1: Eric with U/W Stoneblade
G1: My first hand of the day consists of Breakthrough, LED, Coliseum and Dredgers. He has no force.
In: 3x Ashen Ghould, 2x Tarnished Citadel, 1x Ancient Grudge
Out: 1x Ichorid, 1x PImp, 3x Breakthrough, 1x Golgari Thugh
G2: He mulligans to six and keeps a hand without hate, my seven are completely bonkers.
Round 2: Bernhardt with Maverick
G1: He gets a gameloss because he handed in an illegal decklist.
G2: He mulligans to six and by turn four I have lethal on the board, as he has no relevant creatures on the board, Narcomoebas and Ichorids and Zombies oh my!
Round 3: Jeff with Goblins
G1: My friends tell me he's on Belcher, so I go bonkers turn one, therapy him on Belcher and see a few Goblins and a Relic main. He plays it, but I'm too far ahead, even with an empty graveyard.
In: 3x Ashen Ghould, 2x Tarnished Citadel, 1x Ancient Grudge
Out: 1x Ichorid, 1x PImp, 3x Breakthrough, 1x Golgari Thugh
G2: He mulligans to six and starts with Wasteland and Relic. I don't draw a second land with Study, he wastes and pops Relic with a second Wasteland. We draw go for a while, I start slowdredging, but hit only crap while he finds a Mountain and overloads with creatures.
G3: Again, I power out on turn one. He has a Relic, but I am too far ahead again.
Round 4 & 5: ID
Top 8: Jeff with Goblins
G1 & 2: Basicly the same as in the swiss.
G3: My hand isn't as powerful, I start with Imp, he with Relic. I dredge a few Moebas and start beating for 5 a turn (2x Moeba, Zombie + Imp). The critical turn comes as he plays Sharpshooter (topdecked) and wants to kill my x/1 critters. I notice him that he did not play a Warchief and has to wait a turn. He passes. I announce my Draw step. He says it's ok. Dredge 3 - Darkblast, target Sharpshooter. Didn't even lose a Bridge in the process.
Top 4: Ronny with Canadian Thresh
G1: I start with Land, LED, Looting, DÖMDÖMDÖÖÖÖÖM. He has no Force.
In: 3x Ashen Ghould, 2x Tarnished Citadel, 1x Ancient Grudge
Out: 1x Ichorid, 1x PImp, 3x Breakthrough, 1x Golgari Thugh
G2: He starts with Land, go. I draw and discard Troll. He ponders, land, Extraction on Troll, go, I play LED and Gemstone Mine, Therapy him and don't hit (thought he would be slowrolling a Crypt). He plays Goyf and Mongoose, I City of Brass. He crypts my grave, attacks me to 11, plays another Mongoose and wastes my City. I play Coliseum, lay double LED, float blue with Gemstone Mine (last counter), sac everything, discard everything and dredge 15 cards. Sadly, I don't find a Moeba and he has lethal on board.
G3: I keep Coliseum, 2x Looting, LED, Troll, Imp, Therapy. I don't know if it is right to keep this (and was thinking about it very long), because if he has Force and Crypt, it's game over right there. Well, we both keep, he has neither Force nor Crypt and I win on turn three.
Finals: Bernhardt with Maverick
G1: Hand = bonkers. Game over Turn 2.
In: 3x Ashen Ghould, 2x Tarnished Citadel, 1x Ancient Grudge (I don't even know why. Was a long day :D)
Out: 1x Ichorid, 1x PImp, 3x Breakthrough, 1x Golgari Thugh
G2: We both mull to six. He has nothing while I chain Studys and Lootings, but don't find a dredger. He plays KotR, and then I find the dredger. I try to go all the way with double LED (and two Lootings @ graveyard), but only hit two bridges. Next turn he finds Bog and my damage isn't enough.
G3: He mulligans to six, I keep a hand that will only lose to turn 1 Bog or Double Extraction. So I proceed to play Study, discard Imp and Troll (with Coliseum in Hand). He plays bog. I therapy him, but hit nothing (as he has nothing). He then topdecks Ooze with one green open. I play LED, Coliseum, as I drew Troll. He EoT wants to remove my lonesome Therapy in the graveyard. In response I sacrifice LED, hitting Threshold and dredging half of my deck with Coliseum. Well.. my flips suck, he removes my two Bridges in his turn. In my turn, I get one Ichorid, one Ghoul and nothing in my dredge six. Three Moeba, one Ichorid and one Ghoul attack. He finds Jitte. And Maze. And then I shake his hand, because I just can't win against the combination of Jitte and Ooze.
So I hit the second place, getting a playset of promo Angel of Restoration. Finals was a bit sad as I felt that I had already won, but got very unlucky with basicly everything, but Bernhardt is a really nice guy, so it's ok if he sleeps 3h longer at GP Ghent ;D
The deck performed really smooth the whole day, but I would not cut the Darkblast main. Anyway, thanks, especially to K1W1 and HokusSchmokus for the list and the insight you've been giving.
Thoughts on the tournament:
+ Winning every dice roll every game. Should've went to the Casino instead.
+ Unfair decks being unfair and
+ Fair decks being fair
- Hoooooooooooooooooooooooooot
- Losing the Finals :/
I don't know, i think i won't change anything, because i really feel fine with this list, except the DR i already said.
I don't think it's worth playing Blazing Archon. With Archon you need at least two DR and this means, you have to cut cards.
I also see more less Sneak Show since some weeks ( maybe some players start playing Gilded Drake in the board or other hate )and i wouldn't change the board for Elves. It isn't worth it.
@ mort- : Congratz to your finish with the quadlaser. Didn't you play the undiscovered paradise in the board?
I would play Darkblast if there is to much Maverick, Elves, Goblins, Peacekeepers etc...
K1w1
My colors are... ZONK!
You haven't any colors. You play Dredge.
You love games, which are unfair. You hate Reanimator & NicFit.
At good days, you destroy everything. At bad days,
you draw Narcomoebas. But the most important thing:
Everybody hates you!
You only forgot to mention that players are getting destroyed by Dredge on a regular basis for the last 4-5 years. They HATE this deck. I once ran into a guy that boarded 4 Extirpates, 3 Planar Void and 4 Leyline of the Void in addtion to the 1-off maindeck Jailer...good thing I was playing 4 Horsemen with the Emrakul board:)
This man is a truthspeaker! You deserve a beer - if you see me in Ghent, you may present yourself to me as The Speaker of Truths and I will buy you a beer of choice
I did. But as I'm quite inexperienced with the deck, I didn't know how to board correctly :D
No problem, normally we board like this against Surgical Extraction/Extirpate:
+3 Ashen Ghoul
+2 Tarnished Citadel
+1 Undiscovered Paradise
-4 Lion's Eye Diamond
-1 Ichorid
-1 Putrid Imp/Golgari Thug
But the way you board out seems ok and i think, that this could be better, especially with Ashen Ghouls.
I will test it.
K1w1
My colors are... ZONK!
You haven't any colors. You play Dredge.
You love games, which are unfair. You hate Reanimator & NicFit.
At good days, you destroy everything. At bad days,
you draw Narcomoebas. But the most important thing:
Everybody hates you!
I thought it was -4 LED, -1 Ichorid and -1 Breakthrough.No problem, normally we board like this against Surgical Extraction/Extirpate:
+3 Ashen Ghoul
+2 Tarnished Citadel
+1 Undiscovered Paradise
-4 Lion's Eye Diamond
-1 Ichorid
-1 Putrid Imp/Golgari Thug
Cutting 2-3 creatures seems odd when we want to support 3 Ashen Ghouls.
Our music means nothing, except for what it means to
you.
If i board out LED, i more likely want to cut Pimp/Thug ( Thug i think ). And remember, Ashen Ghoul is black.
My colors are... ZONK!
You haven't any colors. You play Dredge.
You love games, which are unfair. You hate Reanimator & NicFit.
At good days, you destroy everything. At bad days,
you draw Narcomoebas. But the most important thing:
Everybody hates you!
Why are you guys siding out LED before Breakthrough?
LED can turn into a draw spell, and allows more explosive starts, while breakthrough is only good if paired with a discard spell.
Breakthrough isn't as commital as Lion's Eye Diamond vs Tormod's Crypt based hate, and in respone to Surgical Extraction on your Dredger, Breakthrough still draws and discards your hand +4 cards by itself to find another Dredger where LED would've marooned you.
Ok, but do we really care that much about Surgical on dredgers?
We usually side in more threats in order to fight Surgical (not in ways to save our dredgers) because usually is wrong extracting a dredger, right?
Also, LED can also draw a few cards.
@Mojeh It looks that both quadlaser and combo are good in our meta (I'm Brazilian too). Against storm, cabal really rocks, and against Sneak Show the speed is enough most of times, although I found that the FKZ+Griselbrand build is surprising.
Btw, I have to say that I liked Hollywood's list very much, and I'm willing for a try on it.
@mort- Congratulations!!! Even more people hating dredge now :-) Steamrolling opponents like a Boss!
Yeah, I think I'm gonna try a list close to Hollywood's on a Legacy Qualifier, next sunday.
I'll let you know the results =)
Whether or not you do or you don't care about Surgical Extraction on Dredgers depends on the number of Dredgers in your hand, and as far as LED compared to Breakthrough is concerned the problem with LED is that it's more dependent on what the other cards in your hand are than Breakthrough. Breakthrough is consistent at what it does while LED is reliant on Dredgers and Faithless Looting in hand in order to do anything at all.
@K1w1 and everyone: sorry for my ignorance but whqt is the "Quadlazer list"?
Could anyone show me one? I searched but couldnt find...
Thx for the help!
Cyah,
Lammina
Keep Walking, Voidwalker! - Use bugs with moderation -
I have literally done the math.
Magic Level 3 Judge
Southern USA Regional Coordinator
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