@Final Fortune: I got your point, but against Surgical, isn't better to accelerate before they draw a second one? In this case, LED seems better.
I would agree with you, as I have also done the same - most would disagree though, because their experience tells them otherwise.Originally Posted by Anusien
At the end of the day, our experiences will always differ, but the numbers won't lie.
Cheers,
jares
The quadlaser is in the opening post. But i can post it:
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
4 Bridge from Below
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Putrid Imp
4 Careful Study
4 Faithless Looting
4 Breakthrough
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
//////
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Nature's Claim
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Tarnished Citadel
1 Undiscovered Paradise
3 Ashen Ghoul
My colors are... ZONK!
You haven't any colors. You play Dredge.
You love games, which are unfair. You hate Reanimator & NicFit.
At good days, you destroy everything. At bad days,
you draw Narcomoebas. But the most important thing:
Everybody hates you!
Based on what criteria, the statement is meaningless without conditions.
There are a lot of less consistent lists out there that end up performing well. There are a lot of LED lists that are waaay less consistent that LEDless ones, and while Quadlazer is one of the most consistent lists there is, it still can be beaten by a fine tuned LEDless list, but there are other things to consider, as when you throw away 2% chance to have DRs on your list, etc.
By the end of the day, playing tighter and mulliganing correctly is the most consistent Dredge list. xD
If you fail to explain the reason behind your choice, technically, it's the wrong choice.
Zerk Thread -- Really, fun deck! ^^
This.
My colors are... ZONK!
You haven't any colors. You play Dredge.
You love games, which are unfair. You hate Reanimator & NicFit.
At good days, you destroy everything. At bad days,
you draw Narcomoebas. But the most important thing:
Everybody hates you!
About tuned LEDless list, is the list on the primer (from bazaar of moxen) as consistent as the LED version?
The list from the non LED thread was consistent, but is kinda outdated (trading thug for darkblast)...
I'm trying to make a very consistent LEDless list, but some Mulligan results are pissing me off.
IMO! Just play the quadlaser without LEDs and + Tireless Tribe.
my 2 cents
K1w1
My colors are... ZONK!
You haven't any colors. You play Dredge.
You love games, which are unfair. You hate Reanimator & NicFit.
At good days, you destroy everything. At bad days,
you draw Narcomoebas. But the most important thing:
Everybody hates you!
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
4 Careful Study
4 Faithless Looting
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Putrid Imp
4 Breakthrough
4 Cepahlid Coliseum
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Tarnished Citadel
3 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Bridge from Below
1 Dread Return
If you want the second Dread Return, the card you cut is the 4th Putrid Imp, but you sacrifice almost 2% chance to get a good hand.
Interestingly, that deck is more consistent* than GerryT Dredge despite not having LED.
*I defined consistent as the ability to discard a dredger on turn 1 and cast a draw spell on either turn 1 or 2. Here's the full list of keepable hand fragments that can do this. So consistency here is defined as the chance to draw a hand that contain these combination of cards:
Dredger, Dredger, Faithless Looting, Lion’s Eye Diamond
Dredger, Faithless Looting, Lion’s Eye Diamond, Rainbow Land
Dredger, Lion’s Eye Diamond, Careful Study, Rainbow Land
Dredger, Lion’s Eye Diamond, Breakthrough, Rainbow Land
Dredger, Faithless Looting, Putrid Imp/Cabal Therapy, Rainbow Land
Dredger, Putrid Imp/Cabal Therapy, Careful Study, Rainbow Land
Dredger, Putrid Imp/Cabal Therapy, Breakthrough, Rainbow Land
Dredger, Putrid Imp/Cabal Therapy, Cephalid Coliseum, Rainbow Land
Dredger, Faithless Looting, Faithless Looting, Rainbow Land
Dredger, Faithless Looting, Careful Study, Rainbow Land
Dredger, Faithless Looting, Breakthrough, Rainbow Land
Dredger, Faithless Looting, Cephalid Coliseum, Rainbow Land
Dredger, Careful Study, Careful Study, Rainbow Land
Dredger, Careful Study, Breakthrough, Rainbow Land
Dredger, Careful Study, Cephalid Coliseum, Rainbow Land
Dredger, Careful Study, Cephalid Coliseum, Cephalid Coliseum
Dredger, Careful Study, Careful Study, Cephalid Coliseum
Dredger, Careful Study, Breakthrough, Cephalid Coliseum
Dredger, Faithless Looting, Winds of Change, Rainbow Land
Dredger, Putrid Imp/Cabal Therapy, Winds of Change, Rainbow Land
Dredger, Careful Study, Winds of Change, Rainbow Land
Dredger, Lion’s Eye Diamond, Careful Study, Cephalid Coliseum
Dredger, Lion’s Eye Diamond, Breakthrough, Cephalid Coliseum
In terms of optimizing along these lines, Ichorid and Dread Return are interchangeable.
Last edited by Anusien; 07-04-2012 at 06:56 PM.
Magic Level 3 Judge
Southern USA Regional Coordinator
My LED list is exactly that main deck with 4 LEDs over 2 PImps and two Lands. That's why I've always claimed that my LED list is the most consistent one you can build and I haven't found anything that I'd want to change about it in almost 4 months.
You could also call it a Quadlaser with more lands, which is definitely more consistent than the quad list itself.
And we have a winner!
Cheers,
jares
It's interesting for me to see someone else going with 16 lands in LEDless as I have. I'm glad that we've come to the same conclusion after going through the trouble of consulting the math.
Would you be able to expound on the singleton Undiscovered Paradise over the 4th Tarnished Citadel? I have been pondering this option for some time now, and I'm interested in the considerations that you've had for this configuration.
Cheers,
jares
Last edited by jares; 07-04-2012 at 12:57 AM.
Don't take this personal, but Hollywood wrote a really marvelous primer, why the fuck doesn't anybody read it?It's on page 1, please read it and join the discussion then. You are like the 10th person that asked this, in a really new thread. Read the primer, you will find the answers to most questions there!:)
This man is a truthspeaker! You deserve a beer - if you see me in Ghent, you may present yourself to me as The Speaker of Truths and I will buy you a beer of choice
I find the regular mentioning of Entomb to be the most amusing... that's due to come up again fairly soon. Haha
Cheers,
jares
So.. going to a little tournament this sunday.. probably 20-30 players, don't know yet and..what do you think of Entomb?..
Na..going to play Quadlaser and beat some dredge-prepared-asses!
No it isn't. It's still almost 2 months until it has to come up again.I find the regular mentioning of Entomb to be the most amusing... that's due to come up again fairly soon. Haha
Cheers,
jares
This man is a truthspeaker! You deserve a beer - if you see me in Ghent, you may present yourself to me as The Speaker of Truths and I will buy you a beer of choice
Not Entomb time yet.
It is either "Unmask is underplayed" or "61 card decks are great" time. Haven't had a meaningless discussion about either of these lately.
Bored at work on the 4th, so I'll give an overview of my experience at Atlanta. Ended up as the only Dredge player on day two. Went 6-2 on day one plus one bye, and 3-3 on Sunday. Can't say that the deck was poorly positioned, but in this field, you never did get the luxury of a deck with no SB hate. The list I ran:
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug
3 Putrid Imp
4 Narcomoeba
3 Ichorid
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Faithless Looting
4 Careful Study
4 Breakthrough
2 Dread Return
4 Bridge from Below
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
3 Cephalid Coliseum
1 Undiscovered Paradise
1 Tarnished Citadel
3 Nature's Claim
2 Tireless Tribe
3 Chain of Vapor
1 Ashen Ghoul
2 Memory's Journey
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Forsaken City
The only changes I'm thinking of for the main are adding the fourth Thug or a Darkblast for likely the 2nd Dread. It might just be that varience hit during 15 rounds, but I had too many hands without dredgers, or Breakthroughs that bricked on the weekend. The SB was tailored to this tournament, expecting a lot of permanent hate and Reanimator. I'd easily change a few of those numbers around elsewhere.
My losses on day one were to Sneak N Show where I won game two. Game three, he opened with Land, Petal, go. Force your outlet, then turn two, Show in Emrakul. And then to U/R Delver in a game one where I resolved four draw spells before I saw a dredger, and he had two Extractions in his opener in game two.
Day 2 I lost to a Junk-ish player who I had three really tight games, and he leveraged Knight, Ooze, etc. well for the win. A Merfolk player who I gave too many turns to spike a Crypt in game two, and opened with Daze, Force, Cursecatcher, and Crypt in game three. And lastly to an Affinity player who attacked me for 11 turn two on the play, and our last game I died to 4 attacks from a non-enhanced Etched Champion with both my Dread Returns in the last 11 cards of my library, Norn in the yard, and a bunch of other creatures standing off against each other over the battlefield. Funny thing was, I was equally racing with a PImp, and he drew running Inxmoths to win the race. No hate though.
Beat Storm twice. Once, in a match that literally was four turns. Game one, I won the roll, and he scooped after I went off with Therapy on the stack. Game two, he won turn one on the play. Game three, I went off turn one, and he passed back with an empty hand, as I didn't hit the Iona until my turn two.
The second Storm match I will just post from another thread:
I won game one by turn three. Nothing special. Game two, he thought a really long time about his keep, and went land, go. I had the ever popular Land, LED, Breakthrough, and Flashback Looting, which all resolved. Narco triggers on the stack, he Extracted them. Sigh. He then goes, land, go again. Hmm...
My upkeep, triggers on the stack, Extirpate your Ichorids. Oh, that's what you were thinking about keeping. He looks through my now 8 card library, and says, "is that it, dude? Do you even have a way to win now?(I had sided out PImps)" Yes. Yes I do.
I use the one Journey I sided in against IGG and Cabal Rit on my upkeep to return three lands. I draw for the turn, play the land I drew(I had four left already,which I guess looked bad to him), and pass. He Brainstorms and says go.
I say, "I'll Dredge". Whaaaaa?
I dredge Thug, and play it. Sac Thug to Therapy you, get four Bridge triggers. Trigger Thug, put it back on top of my library. Name Cabal Ritual. Sac zombies to DR Iona. Name Black. Go. He does some irrelevant stuff with Blue spells. Next turn, draw Thug. Repeat. Swing. Repeat.
GG. Nice Extractions, brah.
Beat Enchantress twice. 2-0 both. I don't know why people think they beat Dredge. First one I beat on like turn three game one. Then game two, she led with Guile instead of an accellerator. I hardcast Therapy blind for Argothian Enchantress since she wouldn't have the mana for Presence, and hit. Then Claimed her Grove next turn to prevent any shennanigans, and ground her out.
The second win was a little more epic. Game one was another blowout. Game two I kept a slower hand with some hate. He had a god hand of something like Argothian, Wheel, Ground Seal, Replenish, Confinement, but only two lands, and no accel. After blowing up Wheel and Seal, he burned two Confinements to get enough mana to Replenish. However, I had Therapied both his Enchantresses, and he had no Presences to Replenish. So he had to let the Confinements down. They bought him time to get some Growths, Sanctum, one, then two EGrass, and the Wheel and Ground Seal. I have three lands, infinite tokens, and about 8 or so cards left at this point. I draw Breakthrough, and Breakthrough for two, keeping a land and another Breakthrough, then play the land. He pays for Grass, and doesn't hit his last Confinement or Replenish. I draw, and Breakthrough for three, keeping another land and play it. He bricks again. I dredge Troll, and play it. He draws Grove, but it's too late, and I swing for lethal next turn. Lands+Breathrough+Wheel of Sun and Moon=:).
I beat RUG twice, and U/R once, basically on the strength of Tribe. They can't remove it, and except for Delver, can't swing through it. Plus, he beats Crypt almost singlehandedly, and with the time he gives you against U/R, can often let you slow roll around Extraction.
The other wins were against U/W Miracles, which is a bye unless you are an idiot. And Maverick, where I basically overpowered him. He kept hands without Thalia or Waste, on the supposed strength of Knight, Ooze, and Purify. With zero disruption, and a slow clock, it's just not enough.
Overall, I can't be too dissapointed. I did dodge Reanimator. And in a field so "bad" for Dredge, I had at least a decent showing. If I had byes, I'd have placed at least 7-10 spots higher, since my tiebreakers were shit. And maybe even much higher.
~ Team Unicorn Motto
@Anusien: Don't you think that trading Tribe for Looting in LEDless gives us some problems where we aren't able to discard all necessary cards (like when we have dredgers and bridges in the opening hand, or when the first dredge doesn't find another dredge)?
Another question is: Wouldn't be better using FKZ to compensate the lack of speed by not having LED?
Maybe using 15 lands, 2 Ichorids, 2 DR and FKZ?
I updated the LEDless list. I'm pretty sure the 4th Tarnished Citadel is just better than the first Undiscovered Paradise anyway. Throwing away the ability to use Cephalid Coliseum isn't worth it.
No, I don't. You might get stranded with an extra Ichorid or something stuck in your hand, but the tradeoff of being able to get two full turns deeper is worth it.
I gave you the data about FKZ. Make the consistency tradeoff if you think it's acceptable. Personally, I'd rather try and get as deep in my deck to find Therapies instead of trying to get lucky with a 1 of.
Now, in serious questions: If you already have Firestorm in the sideboard, how do you feel about cutting Elesh Norn? The theory someone (I think GerryT or Drew Levin) raised was that instead of running these singular Dread Return bullets like Angel of Despair and Elesh Norn, you just use Griselbrand and have that draw you into your Firestorms and Chain of Vapor.
Magic Level 3 Judge
Southern USA Regional Coordinator
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